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Post by tentboy on Jul 16, 2023 21:12:34 GMT -6
Does anyone use and would share what they may do to test their athletes before the first official practice. For example shuttle runs, max push-ups..... etc
Thank you
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 16, 2023 21:40:35 GMT -6
We used to max in the weight room the last week of July. That was it.
All these "tests" are completely, absolutely, idioticly a waste of time. And just takes it completely out of your athletes right before you actually begin to do things that will actually win you games.
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2023 9:04:09 GMT -6
We tested Bench (upper body), Squat (lower body), 40 (speed), and Mile (stamina-endurance) the Friday-Saturday before first practice.
We assigned points to each category and then ranked players by position. Also used in part to develop depth chart.
Served two purposes:
One, motivation for kids to condition or work out in Off-Season, especially Summer.
Two, gave us an objective argument if parents wanted to know why Junior wasn't playing more (i.e. "Well, to begin with Jimmy ranked fifth out of six players at his position on our Physical Fitness test - maybe because he missed 40% of our Summer Workouts!").
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Post by mrjvi on Jul 17, 2023 10:17:16 GMT -6
blb,
Love your post and do things very much the same-minimal test items. The only one I'd never do is the mile, though. Don't want them running mileage, I want them sprinting. If I had the mile on the test, some would be out running miles all the time.
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2023 10:51:40 GMT -6
blb, Love your post and do things very much the same-minimal test items. The only one I'd never do is the mile, though. Don't want them running mileage, I want them sprinting. If I had the mile on the test, some would be out running miles all the time. I was a PE teacher and used elements of the Presidential Fitness Test on my Final Exams, including the Mile Run. I believed that teenagers - especially those playing a varsity sport - should be able to go out and run a mile at a decent pace (linemen at 50th percentile or better, "skills" at 85th). Plus demonstrated certain amount of mental and-or physical toughness. HS Football requires stamina, endurance, and toughness. You can argue aerobic vs. anaerobic sport. But that's how I felt. And getting kids in the habit of lacing up their shoes and going for a run is not a bad "life" routine to get them into. |
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Post by tog on Jul 17, 2023 13:25:51 GMT -6
rep max tests seemed ok to me, but in reality the true "grade" of what they did in the summer was playing time
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 17, 2023 13:32:45 GMT -6
I believed that teenagers - especially those playing a varsity sport - should be able to go out and run a mile at a decent pace (linemen at 50th percentile or better, "skills" at 85th). What was the 50th percentile time you used? I ask, because the one I just saw in looking it up is insane to expect all your linemen to be able to run. I played both ways in HS, and for one half a season in D3 college, and I've never been able to run a mile in that time in my life. |
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2023 13:45:55 GMT -6
I believed that teenagers - especially those playing a varsity sport - should be able to go out and run a mile at a decent pace (linemen at 50th percentile or better, "skills" at 85th). What was the 50th percentile time you used? I ask, because the one I just saw in looking it up is insane to expect all your linemen to be able to run. I played both ways in HS, and for one half a season in D3 college, and I've never been able to run a mile in that time in my life. It varied by age (14-17). I'll see if I can find them in my files and get back to you. But it was definitely not "insane." Majority of our linemen made it unless they had been totally sedentary and-or were unhealthily overweight. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 17, 2023 13:53:03 GMT -6
What was the 50th percentile time you used? I ask, because the one I just saw in looking it up is insane to expect all your linemen to be able to run. I played both ways in HS, and for one half a season in D3 college, and I've never been able to run a mile in that time in my life. It varied by age (14-17). I'll see if I can find them in my files and get back to you. But it was definitely not "insane." Majority of our linemen made it unless they had been totally sedentary and-or were unhealthily overweight. The one I saw said 7:07 for a 17 year old male. |
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2023 14:08:14 GMT -6
It varied by age (14-17). I'll see if I can find them in my files and get back to you. But it was definitely not "insane." Majority of our linemen made it unless they had been totally sedentary and-or were unhealthily overweight. The one I saw said 7:07 for a 17 year old male. I haven't found them yet but that sounds about right. That's averaging only 1:47 a lap, not unreasonable especially if one has been training for it at all (as kids in my classes would have been). You think that is "insane"? |
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Post by CS on Jul 17, 2023 14:20:43 GMT -6
The one I saw said 7:07 for a 17 year old male. I haven't found them yet but that sounds about right. That's averaging only 1:47 a lap, not unreasonable especially if one has been training for it at all (as kids in my classes would have been). You think that is "insane"? I’ve never ran a 7 min mile and I was a mid skill player |
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2023 14:28:07 GMT -6
Worked for us, was never an issue (except for kids who hadn't run in the Off-Season).
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 17, 2023 14:38:32 GMT -6
The one I saw said 7:07 for a 17 year old male. I haven't found them yet but that sounds about right. That's averaging only 1:47 a lap, not unreasonable especially if one has been training for it at all (as kids in my classes would have been). You think that is "insane"? My wife, who has run a half marathon in under 2 hours, has never ran a 7 minute mile in her lifetime. For a HS lineman, ya, that's pretty nuts. No one needs to be able to run that to be able to have enough "stamina" to play HS football. |
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2023 14:43:55 GMT -6
I haven't found them yet but that sounds about right. That's averaging only 1:47 a lap, not unreasonable especially if one has been training for it at all (as kids in my classes would have been). You think that is "insane"? My wife, who has run a half marathon in under 2 hours, has never ran a 7 minute mile in her lifetime. For a HS lineman, ya, that's pretty nuts. No one needs to be able to run that to be able to have enough "stamina" to play HS football. Perhaps it is necessary to have enough stamina to play HS football WELL for all four quarters. And as I said, I was also trying to promote a healthy life-style future too. Reasonable minds can disagree, as we apparently do. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 17, 2023 14:51:47 GMT -6
My wife, who has run a half marathon in under 2 hours, has never ran a 7 minute mile in her lifetime. For a HS lineman, ya, that's pretty nuts. No one needs to be able to run that to be able to have enough "stamina" to play HS football. Perhaps it is necessary to have enough stamina to play HS football WELL for all four quarters. And as I said, I was also trying to promote a healthy life-style future too. Reasonable minds can disagree, as we apparently do. Definitely do disagree. I mean, I was a pretty decent player (all conference) as well as a wrestler and there's no way I was touching that ever. I thinkthe fastest mile I ever ran was in the 8:10ish range. Even in 2015 when I got down to 245lbs and was running 5ks in 26 mins I couldn't have approached that. Idk that I ever coached more than 5 OL that could have. To each their own I guess. What was the punishment if a kid couldn't do it? |
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Post by blb on Jul 17, 2023 14:55:28 GMT -6
Perhaps it is necessary to have enough stamina to play HS football WELL for all four quarters. And as I said, I was also trying to promote a healthy life-style future too. Reasonable minds can disagree, as we apparently do. Definitely do disagree. I mean, I was a pretty decent player (all conference) as well as a wrestler and there's no way I was touching that ever. I thinkthe fastest mile I ever ran was in the 8:10ish range. Even in 2015 when I got down to 245lbs and was running 5ks in 26 mins could I have approached that. Idk that I ever coached more than 5 OL that could have. To each their own I guess. What was the punishment if a kid couldn't do it? There was no punishment other than fewer points on the PFT. It was a goal for them to accomplish. And those that did (again the majority of our lineman) got a sense of accomplishment and increased individual pride. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Jul 17, 2023 15:12:26 GMT -6
I.E. OL running mile time.... depends on your definition of an OL/type OL you have.
If your OL is 6'1"+, 220 lb-ish+ versus your OL is 5'10, 155 lb-ish; then you have very different metrics.
Personally, I'd never do a running test longer than a set of 110's with specific recovery times. Times vary based on the distance, but it'd be something like 4:1 to 6:1 (recovery to running time)
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Post by blackknight on Jul 17, 2023 19:31:01 GMT -6
1 rep max
Bench
Squat
Power Clean
Dead Lift
40
Pro shuttle
300 yard shuttle
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Post by mrjvi on Jul 18, 2023 11:10:02 GMT -6
We occasionally did some 80's but usually never more than 40's. Won states while doing no direct sprint work other than what was done in practice during drills and scrimmaging. High effort-always game speed. It's certainly OK to agree to disagree. The fastest anybody goes for a random 40 yard section of the mile is about 7 seconds. I just never wanted to condition the players bodies with anything that slow. I was PE also and most of my players could run a fair mile without training longer distances. Sprint intervals will still help people run longer distances acceptably but distance work does not increase speed. I guess IMO. I liked Barry Ross' philosophy and adapted it to football as best I could.
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Post by bignose on Jul 18, 2023 15:09:43 GMT -6
If you are waiting until just before your first organized practice of the season to test the players you are way too late!
You need to test right at the end of the school year to find out what you are dealing with, and to set goals for the kids to accomplish in the preseason.
I always thought that a lot of times the testing led to disappointing results for me.
You end up worrying about what you don't have.
I guess I reached the point where, while I wanted the kids to improve and work at getting faster and stronger, come early August, I'd rather have kids who could learn assignments and play hard, and I didn't have to waste time worrying how they tested out.
That kid who runs the 4.5 forty isn't as useful as the kid who runs the 4.9 forty if he is running in the wrong direction.
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 19, 2023 9:01:25 GMT -6
When I was HC we used BFS (actually modified it to be more like Wendler's 5-3-1 without even knowing it) and they "tested" all the time. Any time they improved a 5 rep max for example we (RRP) recorded, ranked, and published it. So in that sense they were always competing. In terms of a true 1RM day we did that at the end of the summer. We also gave them opportunities during the school year and summer to test 40s and shuttle. Dot dril was timed and RRP'd every workout.
I did it for the boys because most of them would improve if they were consistent and worked hard and that was a way to show that to them and others. What Jimmy could bench or clean didn't change what we did on the field. I think there is a huge corellation to being strong and fast in testing and performance on the field but it is not the end all be all.
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Post by CS on Jul 19, 2023 13:46:47 GMT -6
Isn’t this an out dated practice anyway? Kids are around all summer now. If you have to test them aren’t you an idiot?
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Post by blb on Jul 19, 2023 13:55:48 GMT -6
Isn’t this an out dated practice anyway? Kids are around all summer now. If you have to test them aren’t you an idiot? With all the posts that have been on here about how to get kids to weight lifting, workouts, etc. - If you think they are around all summer at every school-program, maybe you're the idiot. In any event that comment is over the line. |
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Post by CS on Jul 19, 2023 14:01:33 GMT -6
Isn’t this an out dated practice anyway? Kids are around all summer now. If you have to test them aren’t you an idiot? With all the posts that have been on here about how to get kids to weight lifting, workouts, etc. - If you think they are around all summer at every school-program, maybe you're the idiot. In any event that comment is over the line. Didn’t mean that directed at anyone in particular just thinking. Also, I doubt there is a program these days that doesn’t hold practices in the summer. If the kids don’t show up then obviously they’re not in shape and weaker as a general rule and I believe everyone can agree to that statement. The whole testing after summer practice was back when there were no schools summer training or for college teams because the players go home with a packet and a conditioning schedule. So in modern high school football if you have to test your players before practice you’re at the least an incompetent coach As a side question…What happens if a kid missed no summer practices and fails? That makes you as the coach look bad. I will apologize if my previous statement offended you |
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Post by blb on Jul 19, 2023 14:16:12 GMT -6
Who among us would be offended by being labeled an "idiot" or "incompetent"?
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Post by CS on Jul 19, 2023 14:24:45 GMT -6
Who among us would be offended by being labeled an "idiot" or "incompetent"? Ok. Then explain to me why you would need to test kids for strength and/or conditioning if you held practices all summer? If the kids aren’t motivated enough to come to practices with the team they won’t be motivated to do it on their own. So a reasonable person could assume that they aren’t going to complete a test in a way that would be considered “passing.” I look at it more along the lines of punishing everyone else for showing up. So what ever the term applies to the person that can’t put that together on their own then that’s what I meant. Edit: This is also coming from a person that has only been in one program that did testing before fall camp and that was in college for the reason given previously. I’ve never even thought about it until a day ago and came to the realization that it’s not needed |
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Post by blb on Jul 19, 2023 14:36:23 GMT -6
No one was punished for showing up.
In fact we gave special T-Shirts to kids that achieved at different levels on Bench and Squat.
Also those that had perfect attendance at summer workouts (we weren't allowed to have "practices").
Additionally kids that attended most got issued equipment first including choice of jersey number.
And nobody "failed" our PFT per se - they just didn't score as well as others.
A "reasonable person" might make a case that a coach who didn't test just prior to start of practice was "lazy" (as opposed to incompetent or an idiot).
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Post by CS on Jul 19, 2023 15:12:11 GMT -6
No one was punished for showing up. In fact we gave special T-Shirts to kids that achieved at different levels on Bench and Squat. Also those that had perfect attendance at summer workouts (we weren't allowed to have "practices"). Additionally kids that attended most got issued equipment first including choice of jersey number. And nobody "failed" our PFT per se - they just didn't score as well as others. A "reasonable person" might make a case that a coach who didn't test just prior to start of practice was "lazy" (as opposed to incompetent or an idiot). By practices I meant anything you do over the summer. But since you handed out shirts for attendance then you had some expectation for them to show up and condition their bodies all summer. If a kid didn’t show up all or most of the summer then why test him? He will be worse. You know that. Also what if he’s a freak who can sit around and pass the test? He gets to skip while the others have to bust their a$$es? I just can’t understand a reason for it and you still haven’t given me one |
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Post by blackknight on Jul 19, 2023 15:32:27 GMT -6
We tested three times a year. Coinciding with the end of our three 12 week cycles. Generally we tested at the end of the season before we left on Winter break. We tested anyone that was new to our program when we returned. The next test came around Spring Break and usually we bent the schedule to do so right before they left. The third test came the week before we started practice. This was the test you qualified for the award t-shirts and hoodies for certain clubs (800, 900, 1,000, etc.) You also received helmet stickers for certain levels of achievement (all helmet stickers were earned from off season accomplishments). I was the Head Coach for 23 years and kept all the records. We could see the development of our athletes from their freshmen year until their senior year. The other subtle reason we did testing the week before was it got our knuckleheads back into the program. In our Section we had a two then eventually a three week dead period. This was vacation time, etc. We would usually open the weight room but it was true voluntary. "Testing Week" became physical/paperwork week as well as handing out gear so that on Monday we hit the ground running, so to speak. The Strength program was vital to our programs development into a year in and year out contender. The testing held them accountable. It also is competitive and you cannot practice competition enough IMHO. I have been called an idiot and incompetent, but never because of our strength program! Usually those comments came from the stands on Friday nights for running trap on 3rd and 15  |
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Post by blb on Jul 19, 2023 15:45:37 GMT -6
I just can’t understand a reason for it and you still haven’t given me one I gave you two in my first reply this thread. You just refuse to accept them. |
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