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Post by coachcb on Apr 17, 2023 9:12:46 GMT -6
I've run into a new and unpleasant situation this year in track. I've taken over the throws for our high school track team and changed some things. I have all of the kids take one or two standing/power position throws during meets and then allow them to work into the rotation in the disc and glide in the shot.
I do this because I'm undoing a lot of bad habits: they get more distance on their standing/power position throws than their spin/glide because they're throwing properly from the standing/power position. They'll take more full throws at meets once their form is nailed down. Until then, they'll perform better at meets without mucking up their throws.
Two straight meets, two girls have set PRs from the standing position from the power position and under-thrown with a full throw. They're great kids and understand the process. Their parents are a different story. During both meets, a mom and a dad have been pulling the girls aside and telling them not to listen to me and take four full throws. The girls haven't been listening to me as they're seeing the results but it's upsetting them and p-ssing me off.
I've explain to both parents the method behind the madness during and after meets. And, I've asked them to stop undermining but they just keep doing it. Our HC has approached them and told them the same but, again, they pulled it again this weekend. The bosses can't ban them from meets as a)they're away and b) they're not being disruptive. But, I am ready to lose my mind over this crap.
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Post by Defcord on Apr 17, 2023 10:04:06 GMT -6
There's really not much you can do. As long as the kids are listening to you, then you are winning the battle. If the kids stop listening to you, then I wouldn't enter them in the following meet. Parents don't get to pick when you run power in football, they don't get to pick when you bunt in baseball. If they want their kids to compete for your school, they don't have to like what you are doing, but they do have to respect that you have the final say as a leader of the team.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 17, 2023 10:08:11 GMT -6
@defcord
Thanks. I've been trying to wrap my head around this crap for two days now. I have never run into this situation in track and, TBH, it's got my a bit angry.
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Post by MICoach on Apr 17, 2023 10:25:33 GMT -6
Dude, I get it.
I've been lucky not to have a lot of parent issues but the kids are a constant battle. Idk what it is but there are kids who have never been successful in any sport, quit multiple teams and/or changed schools, and are convinced that it's my fault that they're not throwing state-qualifying distances.
I had a girl tell me last week that she thinks I'm a bad coach and don't care enough the day after she PR'd in shot and won the meet in discus.
I think you may want to look into having a meeting with your these parents, perhaps the athlete, and you and the head coach. I know when we've had issues with this our AD is more than willing to put foreward some clear expectations.
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Post by bignose on Apr 17, 2023 10:42:08 GMT -6
You don't want to punish the kids for having knucklehead parents.
Keep in mind the quote given to me by Coach Frank Rhodes, a former mentor: "During the season I wish they was all orphans!"
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Apr 17, 2023 10:43:35 GMT -6
I will have more problems in track in a year than I have had in a football career. I quit track every year... I've been head coach, assistant/ throws coach... doesn't matter. Somehow I get sucked back in... like Hotel California (I can check out any time I like but I can never leave).
I think I finally figured it out. Last year I took on the JH track program. They don't know a damn thing, so they listen, try... and in ND, we will end up having about 4 meets because of the weather (our meets are goat-shows... but at least there aren't too many). Pay is pretty good too (much higher than it should be).
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Post by MICoach on Apr 17, 2023 11:07:56 GMT -6
I will have more problems in track in a year than I have had in a football career. I quit track every year... I've been head coach, assistant/ throws coach... doesn't matter. Somehow I get sucked back in... like Hotel California (I can check out any time I like but I can never leave).
I think I finally figured it out. Last year I took on the JH track program. They don't know a damn thing, so they listen, try... and in ND, we will end up having about 4 meets because of the weather (our meets are goat-shows... but at least there aren't too many). Pay is pretty good too (much higher than it should be).
The discrepency between pay vs hours worked between HS and MS sports is wild. Neither pay well but the lack of headaches and less events (especially hosting events) makes it even better. We have a lot of teachers near retirement who just coach a bunch of middle school sports to pad their retirement numbers. |
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Apr 17, 2023 11:14:33 GMT -6
Tough not much you can do but keep showing results and hope that shuts them up.
My only other concern would be kids training with their parents and building bad habits.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 17, 2023 11:19:42 GMT -6
You don't want to punish the kids for having knucklehead parents. Keep in mind the quote given to me by Coach Frank Rhodes, a former mentor: "During the season I wish they was all orphans!"
Yeah, the girls are still listening to me and they're happy with their throws. One PR'ed by fifteen feet in the discus from the power position and is ranked third in our district. I imagine she'll go to state as she just keeps improving every week. Assuming she doesn't buy into her dad ("You gotta get speed on the disc!" Spin!")
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Post by sweep26 on Apr 17, 2023 12:54:26 GMT -6
My answer was always VIDEOS...
Professionally done Training Videos to illustrate the correct techniques. Then video taping your throwers' practice throws from different angles.
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Post by blb on Apr 17, 2023 12:57:23 GMT -6
The Wide (or is it wild?) Wonderful World of Coaching HS Sports.
Do it the best you can-know how, and if that's not good enough -
Like Grandma use to say, "Pizz on it!"
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Post by CanyonCoach on Apr 17, 2023 13:27:12 GMT -6
When I started coaching track we sucked...big school with no kids out. I tried to push it as an assistant football coach. When I became HC kids started listening we went from track being a laid back intramural-like activity to competing for top 10 spots at state. Went from 20-30 kids out to 80-90 kids.
I tell the assistants that this isn't what I signed up for, on another note we currently have as many kids going on to track scholarships as we do football.
But with that comes an expectation that we will help develop kids and lots of times our methods are not what is trending- Throwers, sprinters, distance parents all want us to do what XY and Z college are doing and we are not there at all.
Best of Luck--- I am more of a penguin from Madagascar. Smile and Wave boys!!!
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Post by coachcb on Apr 17, 2023 14:45:32 GMT -6
My answer was always VIDEOS... Professionally done Training Videos to illustrate the correct techniques. Then video taping your throwers' practice throws from different angles.
I've been using a tablet and Coach's Eye for a long time; it's a throws coach's best friend. Our former throws coach moved away so I stepped in this year. I only coach the throws in track: I have no interest in the other events. He's a solid coach but the kids need to be better out of the front of the ring. He had them progressing into full throws before they proficient at leading with their hips so we've gone back to the drawing board, in some ways.
The kids were a little whiny until they started launching the shot and disc from the standing position at practice. We still do a fair amount of spin and glide footwork and other drills but half of our time is spent in the front of the ring. Some will be throwing from a glide or spin full-time at meets by districts while others will be going from the power position more often than not.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 17, 2023 16:02:07 GMT -6
When I started coaching track we sucked...big school with no kids out. I tried to push it as an assistant football coach. When I became HC kids started listening we went from track being a laid back intramural-like activity to competing for top 10 spots at state. Went from 20-30 kids out to 80-90 kids. I tell the assistants that this isn't what I signed up for, on another note we currently have as many kids going on to track scholarships as we do football. But with that comes an expectation that we will help develop kids and lots of times our methods are not what is trending- Throwers, sprinters, distance parents all want us to do what XY and Z college are doing and we are not there at all. Best of Luck--- I am more of a penguin from Madagascar. Smile and Wave boys!!! One thing I constantly tell my students (lower elementary PE) is that “you don’t get to be an expert/star doing what the stars do. You get there doing what the stars did when the were beginning like you”. I point to Steph Curry as an example - he learned to shoot- he didn’t shoot from logos when he was 8 |
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Post by mrjvi on Apr 17, 2023 16:05:34 GMT -6
I coached track for over 40 years much of it as the throws coach but a lot as the head. I always told throwers that even though they will progress to a full throw at different speeds, all will start with stands until they master the basics of power generation. First year kids rarely get to full throws that year. Your kids are like 1st year throwers. You have given them opportunities to have their last 2 throws a full throw. The parents saying that are idiots. Most likely they never threw and if they did weren't very good. If they were good throwers they would know better. My 3 daughters threw for me. One had great body control and learned the full spin her 2nd year. The other 2 spent the second and some of the 3rd year doing a south african drill inside the circle for their throws but often had to stand to make finals. People think the event is simple but force generation is very hard to learn well. Lastly, using drills of more than stands but less than full throws help a lot. They also show kids that if you can't get further throws with drills that are more than stands,(half drills, south africans, etc.) you haven't learned to use momentum yet and full throws will not be achieved.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 17, 2023 16:46:33 GMT -6
Track is a miserable "sport". I genuinely hated every moment I was associated with it.
That is all.
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Post by freezeoption on Apr 17, 2023 20:02:08 GMT -6
If they continue to not do what you ask then don't enter them in events. I was the only track coach for boy and girls middle and high school. Kids ticked me off I pulled them from events they liked. I was at a small school that never did well in track. I had to compete with baseball for kids.
Life's to short to be passed off.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 18, 2023 9:04:52 GMT -6
I coached track for over 40 years much of it as the throws coach but a lot as the head. I always told throwers that even though they will progress to a full throw at different speeds, all will start with stands until they master the basics of power generation. First year kids rarely get to full throws that year. Your kids are like 1st year throwers. You have given them opportunities to have their last 2 throws a full throw. The parents saying that are idiots. Most likely they never threw and if they did weren't very good. If they were good throwers they would know better. My 3 daughters threw for me. One had great body control and learned the full spin her 2nd year. The other 2 spent the second and some of the 3rd year doing a south african drill inside the circle for their throws but often had to stand to make finals. People think the event is simple but force generation is very hard to learn well. Lastly, using drills of more than stands but less than full throws help a lot. They also show kids that if you can't get further throws with drills that are more than stands,(half drills, south africans, etc.) you haven't learned to use momentum yet and full throws will not be achieved.
Yeah, we work a lot of half-turns, South Africans, two-step glide (shot) and others. I have one that is close to proficient from the front of ring in discus and the rest are getting there. None of them have decent hip separation in the shot: they're all leading with their shoulders. We're undoing some bad habits in shot right now: they're used to leading with their blocking arm. A few are getting all kinds of twitchy with shot right now as we spend 75%+ of our shot time working our standing position.
I don't know what will happen with the parents. The bosses have been informed and we'll see what happens this Saturday.
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Post by CS on Apr 18, 2023 11:15:26 GMT -6
I've run into a new and unpleasant situation this year in track. I've taken over the throws for our high school track team and changed some things. I have all of the kids take one or two standing/power position throws during meets and then allow them to work into the rotation in the disc and glide in the shot.
I do this because I'm undoing a lot of bad habits: they get more distance on their standing/power position throws than their spin/glide because they're throwing properly from the standing/power position. They'll take more full throws at meets once their form is nailed down. Until then, they'll perform better at meets without mucking up their throws.
Two straight meets, two girls have set PRs from the standing position from the power position and under-thrown with a full throw. They're great kids and understand the process. Their parents are a different story. During both meets, a mom and a dad have been pulling the girls aside and telling them not to listen to me and take four full throws. The girls haven't been listening to me as they're seeing the results but it's upsetting them and p-ssing me off.
I've explain to both parents the method behind the madness during and after meets. And, I've asked them to stop undermining but they just keep doing it. Our HC has approached them and told them the same but, again, they pulled it again this weekend. The bosses can't ban them from meets as a)they're away and b) they're not being disruptive. But, I am ready to lose my mind over this crap.
How supportive are the admin? If they aren't doing what you are telling them to do on purpose that's insubordination on their part. Don't take them to meets until they comply My bad you had a typo and I thought they were listening to their parents instead of you. Yeah if they are still doing what you ask them to do then don't worry about the parents |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 18, 2023 11:39:36 GMT -6
I've run into a new and unpleasant situation this year in track. I've taken over the throws for our high school track team and changed some things. I have all of the kids take one or two standing/power position throws during meets and then allow them to work into the rotation in the disc and glide in the shot.
I do this because I'm undoing a lot of bad habits: they get more distance on their standing/power position throws than their spin/glide because they're throwing properly from the standing/power position. They'll take more full throws at meets once their form is nailed down. Until then, they'll perform better at meets without mucking up their throws.
Two straight meets, two girls have set PRs from the standing position from the power position and under-thrown with a full throw. They're great kids and understand the process. Their parents are a different story. During both meets, a mom and a dad have been pulling the girls aside and telling them not to listen to me and take four full throws. The girls have been listening to me as they're seeing the results but it's upsetting them and p-ssing me off.
I've explain to both parents the method behind the madness during and after meets. And, I've asked them to stop undermining but they just keep doing it. Our HC has approached them and told them the same but, again, they pulled it again this weekend. The bosses can't ban them from meets as a)they're away and b) they're not being disruptive. But, I am ready to lose my mind over this crap.
How supportive are the admin? If they aren't doing what you are telling them to do on purpose that's insubordination on their part. Don't take them to meets until they comply My bad you had a typo and I thought they were listening to their parents instead of you. Yeah if they are still doing what you ask them to do then don't worry about the parents Nah, the kids are listening to me: they're solid kids. I corrected the typo. My bad. |
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Post by center on Apr 18, 2023 13:52:37 GMT -6
CB, do most of your meets have three throws and then finals or three throws total for the event?
All of our children were throwers and they were blessed with an incredible coach. He did the same thing with all of them. They were power until they could progress.
In fact my youngest is currently at a really good D3 program and the coach had them throw power in the discus for the first meet.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 18, 2023 14:28:42 GMT -6
CB, do most of your meets have three throws and then finals or three throws total for the event? All of our children were throwers and they were blessed with an incredible coach. He did the same thing with all of them. They were power until they could progress. In fact my youngest is currently at a really good D3 program and the coach had them throw power in the discus for the first meet.
Most meets, we get four throws without finals. District and divisional meets have three throws and then three more if you make finals. So, given that we have four throws, I don't mind letting them do one-two full throws as long as their power throws have been quality. I want them to get a feel for full throws in different rings and a competition setting. But, they'll only take power position throws if they can't get into a groove and pop off a good throw from the front of the ring.
Every single one of them set a new PR from the power position on their first meet. And, they've just continued to progress. One girl has out thrown her power position from a rotation once. It was a decent spin but she only pushed it out four more feet, over her power position throw.
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Post by dubber on Apr 18, 2023 18:12:18 GMT -6
Track coach has to be one of most secure gigs due to lack of people who want to coach it.
Like, what would you have to do to get fired?
Maybe just do what you want
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 18, 2023 18:19:29 GMT -6
Track coach has to be one of most secure gigs due to lack of people who want to coach it. Like, what would you have to do to get fired? Maybe just do what you want I think the most secure coaching job in HS athletics is a head wrestling coach. Don't do something illegal and you're good for 30 years. You don't even have to know anything about the sport. |
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sbackes
Sophomore Member
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Post by sbackes on Apr 18, 2023 19:15:37 GMT -6
Just keep coaching them up. Nice thing about throws: you can always point to their mark and say “You did what I told you to and it went further” or “You didn’t do what I told you and it went shorter”. There are no gray areas. Keep connecting the dots between your coaching and their good performance.
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Post by spartan on Apr 18, 2023 19:58:26 GMT -6
Like football, you don't listen you don't throw. I would literally not care anyways. Let them do their thing. Its no tlike your going to the US Track and field NFL, or whatever that is called.
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Post by sweep26 on Apr 18, 2023 21:04:43 GMT -6
CB, do most of your meets have three throws and then finals or three throws total for the event? All of our children were throwers and they were blessed with an incredible coach. He did the same thing with all of them. They were power until they could progress. In fact my youngest is currently at a really good D3 program and the coach had them throw power in the discus for the first meet.
Most meets, we get four throws without finals. District and divisional meets have three throws and then three more if you make finals. So, given that we have four throws, I don't mind letting them do one-two full throws as long as their power throws have been quality. I want them to get a feel for full throws in different rings and a competition setting. But, they'll only take power position throws if they can't get into a groove and pop off a good throw from the front of the ring.
Every single one of them set a new PR from the power position on their first meet. And, they've just continued to progress. One girl has out thrown her power position from a rotation once. It was a decent spin but she only pushed it out four more feet, over her power position throw.
It sounds like you have done a terrific job teaching technique to these kids...you have obviously developed a great physical foundation for your throwers!! Now might be a good time to begin working on their confidence...instead of dwelling on the things that they are doing wrong, start looking for the good things that they are doing and compliment the heck out of those things...build on their strengths. I know that you said in an earlier post that you use your 'Tablet' a lot in practice...review their throws with them and allow them to to self-evaluate as well. They need to believe in themselves...in order for that to happen...they need to know that you are proud of them and that you truly do believe in them. It sounds like nearly all of your throwers want to "Spin/Glide" etc. so give them a short, segmented warm-up routine that is a process that they understand that ties all elements of the necessary skills that they need to achieve success (whatever that might be: (PR's, School Records, Meet Records, etc.) |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 19, 2023 10:01:21 GMT -6
Most meets, we get four throws without finals. District and divisional meets have three throws and then three more if you make finals. So, given that we have four throws, I don't mind letting them do one-two full throws as long as their power throws have been quality. I want them to get a feel for full throws in different rings and a competition setting. But, they'll only take power position throws if they can't get into a groove and pop off a good throw from the front of the ring.
Every single one of them set a new PR from the power position on their first meet. And, they've just continued to progress. One girl has out thrown her power position from a rotation once. It was a decent spin but she only pushed it out four more feet, over her power position throw.
It sounds like you have done a terrific job teaching technique to these kids...you have obviously developed a great physical foundation for your throwers!! Now might be a good time to begin working on their confidence...instead of dwelling on the things that they are doing wrong, start looking for the good things that they are doing and compliment the heck out of those things...build on their strengths. I know that you said in an earlier post that you use your 'Tablet' a lot in practice...review their throws with them and allow them to to self-evaluate as well. They need to believe in themselves...in order for that to happen...they need to know that you are proud of them and that you truly do believe in them. It sounds like nearly all of your throwers want to "Spin/Glide" etc. so give them a short, segmented warm-up routine that is a process that they understand that ties all elements of the necessary skills that they need to achieve success (whatever that might be: (PR's, School Records, Meet Records, etc.)
I learned my lesson with respect to positive feedback with throwers (particularly females) a long time ago. For every one thing I want them to fix, I point out two-three things they did well. We have a strong focus on becoming self-aware when we throw. Most the the kids can tell me what they did well and/or what they screwed up on, based on the throw. The video feedback is HUGE in this respect: Coach's Eye is excellent.
Right now, I'm happy with most of their power position throws. Their hips are driving and lifting and dragging the implement through. Blocking has been suspect, particularly with shot. Several of them aren't doing any blocking with the off-arm right now as they focus on it too much and lead with their shoulders. I've found that pulling the block out and adding it back in once everything else is in place helps out great deal.
They all need to slow down on their rotation in discus: they're rushing the first and making multiple mistakes through the rest of the progression We've been breaking that down, bit by bit and it's improving. They're also trying to "jump" from the first turn to the second turn and I blame YouTube for that one. Lol
The glide has been a slower progression mainly because they struggle with rocking back and driving off of their heel. They try to muscle off of their drive leg end up throwing too high, even with a decent hip set. That should be an easy fix but some have turned that bad habit into muscle memory. They're not gliding as much as jumping to the front of the ring and then they have a hard time setting their hips as they've dead stopped at the front of the ring.
One of the parents reached out to me an apologized for undermining me. They had a few excuses but at least it finished with an "I'm sorry, won't happen again." Apparently, the other is being fairly obstinate with the bosses so we'll see what happens this Saturday. I think it'll take his daughter telling him to back off in order to fix it.
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Post by mrjvi on Apr 19, 2023 17:39:11 GMT -6
video is huge and as we say never lies. My problem was I always had 30+ throwers of each gender. (60 not multiple genders  ) Hard to video them all. |
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Post by bulldogsdc on Apr 20, 2023 6:56:03 GMT -6
Looking forward to seeing how the weekend meet goes!
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) Hard to video them all.