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Post by sweep26 on Jan 17, 2023 9:46:29 GMT -6
Looking for opinions...
What are the pluses for both a school and a community for having a perennial SUCCESSFUL Football Program as opposed to just having a Football Program?
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 17, 2023 10:25:17 GMT -6
The benefits are innumerable. Football is the bell cow. I see a lot more school pride in perennial winning programs. In my observations there are a lot more faculty, staff, and students who wear school apparel to school....because they have pride in the school and community. In the community it is lot easier to raise money because everyone likes to support a winner and wants that sign in their shop window saying the donated.
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Post by realdawg on Jan 17, 2023 10:42:20 GMT -6
IDK that we are a perennial winner yet......our program has been really bad in the past, but we are 26-6 in the last 3 years that I have been here, and 36-9 in the last 4. This year we were 12-1 and won our first conference title since 1976, and my Principal made the comment to a member of the media, that it was the best start to a school year he had experienced as a Principal.
I would say it results in more school spirit and pride and a general better attitude amongst the students and staff. Also, winning results in more people attending the games, and better gates, which gives the athletic department more money and resources for other sports.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 17, 2023 10:47:53 GMT -6
Old admin told me once, "As the football teams goes, so does the school year."
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Post by coachcb on Jan 17, 2023 11:07:42 GMT -6
IME winning football programs help produce success in the other boy's sports. Which, in turn, has a cascade effect in terms of school spirit, and student and community involvement in the school.
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Post by RunThePistol on Jan 17, 2023 11:22:53 GMT -6
IMO, the value of a successful football team isn't able to be quantified. As Coachcb just said, the cascade effect of impacting all boys sports is incalculable. I've been a part of 3 successful football schools, the amount of confidence those kids had allowed them to attempt more things in life in general(academics, athletics, etc.).
I'm currently at a football tradition poor school, and our kids have 0 confidence. THis applies in all aspects of life, sports, academics, weight training, etc. Just a total fear of failure.
So my question is how do you measure the value of confidence?
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 18, 2023 4:45:18 GMT -6
IMO, the value of a successful football team isn't able to be quantified. As Coachcb just said, the cascade effect of impacting all boys sports is incalculable. I've been a part of 3 successful football schools, the amount of confidence those kids had allowed them to attempt more things in life in general(academics, athletics, etc.). I'm currently at a football tradition poor school, and our kids have 0 confidence. THis applies in all aspects of life, sports, academics, weight training, etc. Just a total fear of failure. So my question is how do you measure the value of confidence? Is that one of those things you can't measure, but you know it when you see it?
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Post by CS on Jan 18, 2023 5:05:26 GMT -6
Football starts the school year. Like others have said school spirit is better at schools with winning programs. The schools I’ve worked at that had mediocre or bad programs were all really negative IMO
I’ve also noticed that the kids are really quick to talk sh!t about the football program being bad but other sports get somewhat of a pass. It may have been because it directly related to me so I noticed more or it.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 18, 2023 7:02:30 GMT -6
IMO, the value of a successful football team isn't able to be quantified. As Coachcb just said, the cascade effect of impacting all boys sports is incalculable. I've been a part of 3 successful football schools, the amount of confidence those kids had allowed them to attempt more things in life in general(academics, athletics, etc.). I'm currently at a football tradition poor school, and our kids have 0 confidence. THis applies in all aspects of life, sports, academics, weight training, etc. Just a total fear of failure. So my question is how do you measure the value of confidence? One could argue that this is a post hoc fallacy. "THis applies in all aspects of life, sports, academics, weight training, etc. Just a total fear of failure." Wouldn't this better explain the lack of football success?
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Post by RunThePistol on Jan 18, 2023 7:57:57 GMT -6
@ Coachwoodall, If you read the previous sentence, that is exactly what i said. "I'm currently at a football tradition poor school".
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Post by bulldogsdc on Jan 18, 2023 8:04:37 GMT -6
IMO- When you have 50-100 young men with something on the line walking the halls of the school, the school will be better.
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Post by sweep26 on Jan 18, 2023 8:21:27 GMT -6
Thanks' to all of you that were willing to share your opinions...
I was hoping that there would be some quantifiable data, or examples available that would illustrate the benefits of having a perennially successful high school football program...perhaps from an economics perspective, or perhaps from a self-efficacy/self-perception perspective.
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Post by bulldogsdc on Jan 18, 2023 11:26:26 GMT -6
Thanks' to all of you that were willing to share your opinions... I was hoping that there would be some quantifiable data, or examples available that would illustrate the benefits of having a perennially successful high school football program...perhaps from an economics perspective, or perhaps from a self-efficacy/self-perception perspective. When we go on a playoff run hosting games, The Lion's club that runs the concession stand has been quoted as saying they make an additional 30-40K. They put that money back in to the community.
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Post by carookie on Jan 18, 2023 11:41:23 GMT -6
Thanks' to all of you that were willing to share your opinions... I was hoping that there would be some quantifiable data, or examples available that would illustrate the benefits of having a perennially successful high school football program...perhaps from an economics perspective, or perhaps from a self-efficacy/self-perception perspective. I think you would have a hard time finding quantifiable data for several reasons. -There is a wide range of environments in which we coach. There are multiple high schools in the city I coach in, all within a couple miles of each other. Ergo, the city as a whole doesn't all attach itself to one school, so the community is not all united behind one school- but we are a bigger metro area. -Lots of your benefits are difficult to quantify (ie happiness). I hate when I hear studies that claim people are 'less happy' than they have ever been. As its just based off opinions that don't have a standardized base measuring point. I guess you could look at test grades, but even the evaluations are always changing and not consistent enough to be viable.
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Post by irishdog on Jan 18, 2023 11:42:02 GMT -6
Former University of Tennessee school president Joe Johnson once said, "Athletics, and football in particular, is the front porch of the university." Even in any high school I have worked in (and I have worked in a number of them) that statement has always held true.
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Post by Old Pro on Jan 18, 2023 14:58:39 GMT -6
I had an old Admin tell me once that the football teams performance had nothing to do with how the school year went. Of course, he was an ex-basketball guy and hated football. Our AD and Supt were former music teachers. Do the math. I left after two years
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Post by irishdog on Jan 18, 2023 22:03:48 GMT -6
I had an old Admin tell me once that the football teams performance had nothing to do with how the school year went. Of course, he was an ex-basketball guy and hated football. Our AD and Supt were former music teachers. Do the math. I left after two years I bet they had a helluva fine arts program!
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jan 18, 2023 23:00:46 GMT -6
I had an old Admin tell me once that the football teams performance had nothing to do with how the school year went. Of course, he was an ex-basketball guy and hated football. Our AD and Supt were former music teachers. Do the math. I left after two years
I think that guy is at our place now.
I agree with all that was said about a good program has a positive impact, etc.
But there are a few caveats: The administration/school staff needs to give a little support and the players can't be a bunch of jerks. I also see that as time goes on, that impact (here anyway) becomes less and less prevalent; success is almost expected.
I've been here 11 years- the first 4 were a rise to a state championship and everyone was pumped. But after that... the attitude around school slowly descended to (and I hate this term, but it seems about right): Meh.
Our players are good kids overall (still idiots at times, but try to be positive influences) and we've still been at or near the top since then, but it's almost as if there is resentment.
About two years ago we renovated our school, including the entrance to our gym. On several walls there are collages of activity photos (mainly sports)... game action, celebration photos with trophies... those kinds of things. I had nothing to do with any of this... except maybe sharing some photos I had.
At our first home basketball game we opened early so our fans could see the remodel. One of the first things I heard was "it's too much football". This was on the heels of a second consecutive state championship game appearance.
We hosted a state semi-final game this year. There was more basketball talk around the town/school than there was about the football game.
I'm really starting to find truth in the "10 year shelf life" of a coach at a particular place... or the Spike Dykes saying that "your (the coach / the program under that coach) popularity diminishes 10% every year."
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 19, 2023 7:44:45 GMT -6
I had an old Admin tell me once that the football teams performance had nothing to do with how the school year went. Of course, he was an ex-basketball guy and hated football. Our AD and Supt were former music teachers. Do the math. I left after two years
I think that guy is at our place now.
I agree with all that was said about a good program has a positive impact, etc.
But there are a few caveats: The administration/school staff needs to give a little support and the players can't be a bunch of jerks. I also see that as time goes on, that impact (here anyway) becomes less and less prevalent; success is almost expected.
I've been here 11 years- the first 4 were a rise to a state championship and everyone was pumped. But after that... the attitude around school slowly descended to (and I hate this term, but it seems about right): Meh.
Our players are good kids overall (still idiots at times, but try to be positive influences) and we've still been at or near the top since then, but it's almost as if there is resentment.
About two years ago we renovated our school, including the entrance to our gym. On several walls there are collages of activity photos (mainly sports)... game action, celebration photos with trophies... those kinds of things. I had nothing to do with any of this... except maybe sharing some photos I had.
At our first home basketball game we opened early so our fans could see the remodel. One of the first things I heard was "it's too much football". This was on the heels of a second consecutive state championship game appearance.
We hosted a state semi-final game this year. There was more basketball talk around the town/school than there was about the football game.
I'm really starting to find truth in the "10 year shelf life" of a coach at a particular place... or the Spike Dykes saying that "your (the coach / the program under that coach) popularity diminishes 10% every year."
I think part of what you experienced reflects the truth (as much as we is coaches, don’t wanna hear it, and as much as it goes against what is being said in this thread ). It really DOESNT MATTER. The NEWNESS of the rise to success provided new energy in the school and community. It became “meh” because once there, people began to realize it doesn’t really matter. The local football team being successful doesn’t make a worker’s job more likable, spouse more attractive, bills less burdensome etc. It doesn’t make trigonometry easier, it doesn’t make Shakespeare more enjoyable to students it doesn’t make the Marshall plan more interesting etc. When it is new and different it’s exciting. After that not so much.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 19, 2023 7:51:35 GMT -6
I don't think it has any impact on the school as a whole, but I'm on a forum for football coaches so that isn't going to go over real well probably.
I think it probably has a bigger impact on your (the football coach) perception of how the school year goes.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 19, 2023 8:48:16 GMT -6
Larrymoe has that piece right. When we had a good year or at least finished the season well I felt better about a lot of things.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 19, 2023 9:37:16 GMT -6
IMO, the value of a successful football team isn't able to be quantified. As Coachcb just said, the cascade effect of impacting all boys sports is incalculable. I've been a part of 3 successful football schools, the amount of confidence those kids had allowed them to attempt more things in life in general(academics, athletics, etc.). I'm currently at a football tradition poor school, and our kids have 0 confidence. THis applies in all aspects of life, sports, academics, weight training, etc. Just a total fear of failure. So my question is how do you measure the value of confidence? Is that one of those things you can't measure, but you know it when you see it? That's my take on it. I can typically see it day by day at practice. In successful programs/schools, the kids do a good job of holding themselves accountable throughout the day. They hold themselves to a high standard as it's expected and they know it. We rarely have to enforce that standard. The season might be rough by the program's standards (i.e. .500) but the kids keep it together.
Not so much in a struggling program. The standards of high effort and quality attitude have to be reinforced from the start of practice until the end. I can see it in how the kids carry themselves, even after a win or a hard-fought loss. It can be draining as you feel like you're trying to hold the team together, 24/7. You're always trying to strike that balance between keeping their heads up while holding them accountable without killing what little confidence they have.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 19, 2023 10:21:08 GMT -6
So my question is how do you measure the value of confidence? One of the things I learned from a local program who had some of the worst lifting technique I'd ever seen at a power meet was that it wasn't really necessary for their kids to be able to clean 300lbs with great technique, they THOUGHT they could.
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Post by RunThePistol on Jan 19, 2023 11:01:29 GMT -6
Having the confidence and belief just to attempt goes A LONG WAY. One of my most favorite quotes "Wheteher you think you can or you can't, either way you're right." Confidence changes everything about your mindset and attitude.
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sbackes
Sophomore Member
Posts: 224
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Post by sbackes on Jan 19, 2023 20:41:53 GMT -6
Looking for opinions... What are the pluses for both a school and a community for having a perennial SUCCESSFUL Football Program as opposed to just having a Football Program? When the football team is good, everyone in the stands can focus on fixing other things around town.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 20, 2023 1:59:27 GMT -6
Looking for opinions... What are the pluses for both a school and a community for having a perennial SUCCESSFUL Football Program as opposed to just having a Football Program? When the football team is good, everyone in the stands can focus on fixing other things around town. One would think that would be true... but I have been in the stands enough to know it just isn't so. Have heard many complaints and criticisms watching double digit state championship game wins.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 20, 2023 10:08:43 GMT -6
When the football team is good, everyone in the stands can focus on fixing other things around town. One would think that would be true... but I have been in the stands enough to know it just isn't so. Have heard many complaints and criticisms watching double digit state championship game wins.
Yessir... I've experienced more criticism in a highly successful program than a mediocre one. Things do get rough when you're in a struggling program. But... The type of b-tching you get typically tells you why the program is struggling.
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Post by raider92 on Jan 20, 2023 10:33:08 GMT -6
One would think that would be true... but I have been in the stands enough to know it just isn't so. Have heard many complaints and criticisms watching double digit state championship game wins.
Yessir... I've experienced more criticism in a highly successful program than a mediocre one. Things do get rough when you're in a struggling program. But... The type of b-tching you get typically tells you why the program is struggling.
Absolutely. Winning programs lead to fans expecting to win all the time/being unhappy that you aren't winning even more. Losing programs that have always been losers by contrast come with a lot less criticism because no one really cares that much in my experience.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 20, 2023 10:40:44 GMT -6
Society is programmed to be miserable and constantly complain. It doesn't matter what actually happens win or lose, someone's going to be pissed and find a way to be victimized. It's the world we live in.
Edit- and I understand this is me complaining about society. But, I'd be happy as a clam to be entirely without society
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Post by sweep26 on Jan 20, 2023 11:40:49 GMT -6
So my question is how do you measure the value of confidence? One of the things I learned from a local program who had some of the worst lifting technique I'd ever seen at a power meet was that it wasn't really necessary for their kids to be able to clean 300lbs with great technique, they THOUGHT they could. This is another topic that I am quite interested in... If the challenge to the kids that you reference is solely directed toward the weight lifting competition I believe that would be attributed to their high level of self-efficacy (confidence based on previous success in this activity). If that same group also excels in other competitive events it undoubtedly reflects their high level of self-confidence ( a personality trait).
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