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Post by 19delta on Jun 4, 2021 9:02:23 GMT -6
I agree. Given that the HC was not a certificated faculty member (based on his now deleted bio) I am curious how many, if any, were. Spending a few minutes using online search engines, It looks like all spend a great deal of time posting on twitter (which would disqualify them if I were king of the world LOL). One seems to be quite fond of John Cena, so there is that. I found that one had a linked in profile saying he was a PE teacher at St. Thomas Aquinas through March of 2018 (while also stating he was coaching at Mckinley since 2017 and was OC/qb coach). Another has a zoom info page that says he is "Safety and Security". (Not director of, not head of...it states he is "safety and security". His twitter acct says he is the Director of Player Personnel and Linebacker coach. Also of note, apparently Wattley (the HC) was the 4th HC of this program in the last 8 years or so. This seems to support the idea that when football is no longer an extra curricular extension of the school, but instead its own entity and a source for other people to try define themselves by the accomplishments of others...it can lead to foolish outcomes. As I mentioned earlier, my biggest concern is that had this not been a non kosher pizza, had there not been any religious issues involved here, this would not have had the same outcome. I think that is 100% wrong. The religious issue is what is driving the stories, as the headlines can lead readers /viewers to think that the primary action here was coaches persecuting a religion. I do not believe that was the case at all. That was just happenstance. I don't believe they did it because of religion, but more than one article I read said the kid told them numerous times that he could not eat it for religious reasons. Now, maybe they don't do pre-game meals, etc, but if you do any thing at all where you are feeding kids (even if it's pizza), you gotta know your team well enough to know which kids have religious restrictions. For example, I know not to try to take my Muslim players to a pig pickin' . These guys just didn't care. This wasn't coaching, this was about humiliation. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten fired if religion hadn't come into play---but the kid told them. If there was no religious issue, I think we're on the same page that it was still a very stupid thing to do. Whether or not they got fired over it in that circumstance would probably depend on a lot of other factors (previous incidents, for example), but they would at least be told anything else and they're out the door. Agreed. While the pizza-eating was a terrible idea from the start, as soon as the kid said, "My religion prohibits me from eating that", it should have been immediately shut down. The fact that none of these dopes realized they had gone WAY over the line is disturbing. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 4, 2021 9:12:19 GMT -6
I don't believe they did it because of religion, but more than one article I read said the kid told them numerous times that he could not eat it for religious reasons. Now, maybe they don't do pre-game meals, etc, but if you do any thing at all where you are feeding kids (even if it's pizza), you gotta know your team well enough to know which kids have religious restrictions. For example, I know not to try to take my Muslim players to a pig pickin' . These guys just didn't care. This wasn't coaching, this was about humiliation. Maybe they wouldn't have gotten fired if religion hadn't come into play---but the kid told them. If there was no religious issue, I think we're on the same page that it was still a very stupid thing to do. Whether or not they got fired over it in that circumstance would probably depend on a lot of other factors (previous incidents, for example), but they would at least be told anything else and they're out the door. Agreed. While the pizza-eating was a terrible idea from the start, as soon as the kid said, "My religion prohibits me from eating that", it should have been immediately shut down. The fact that none of these dopes realized they had gone WAY over the line is disturbing. Absolutely. My concern is that even if the student was not Jewish, or if he was but they knew he ate pork all the time (even if it was against his tenants) and he was just using that as a "f you, I won't do it and you can't make me" thing the idea that they were going to humiliate a student for missing a voluntary work out should be grounds for firing. I am concerned that the religious aspects are going to dominate the headlines, and in my opinion that should not matter one bit. If the entire story was simply the coaches made a kid eat a pizza while they (and team mates) berated him because the kid missed a voluntary work out, the results should still be the same. |
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Post by pitt1980 on Jun 4, 2021 11:02:49 GMT -6
Agreed. While the pizza-eating was a terrible idea from the start, as soon as the kid said, "My religion prohibits me from eating that", it should have been immediately shut down. The fact that none of these dopes realized they had gone WAY over the line is disturbing. Absolutely. My concern is that even if the student was not Jewish, or if he was but they knew he ate pork all the time (even if it was against his tenants) and he was just using that as a "f you, I won't do it and you can't make me" thing the idea that they were going to humiliate a student for missing a voluntary work out should be grounds for firing. I am concerned that the religious aspects are going to dominate the headlines, and in my opinion that should not matter one bit. If the entire story was simply the coaches made a kid eat a pizza while they (and team mates) berated him because the kid missed a voluntary work out, the results should still be the same.
Not that it really matters, I'm fully on board with this being really dumb even with no religious component,
but the phrasing on the ESPN version of this story is a tad subtle,
"The player and his family are a members of the Hebrew Israelite religious faith",
If I throw 'Hebrew Israelite' into google, it only brings back results for 'Black Hebrew Israelite',
Who knows how well the coach knew this kid or his family (could really be all over the spectrum), it's possible he had no idea what this kid's religious beliefs were prior to the kid saying 'I don't eat pork'
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 4, 2021 11:25:33 GMT -6
Absolutely. My concern is that even if the student was not Jewish, or if he was but they knew he ate pork all the time (even if it was against his tenants) and he was just using that as a "f you, I won't do it and you can't make me" thing the idea that they were going to humiliate a student for missing a voluntary work out should be grounds for firing. I am concerned that the religious aspects are going to dominate the headlines, and in my opinion that should not matter one bit. If the entire story was simply the coaches made a kid eat a pizza while they (and team mates) berated him because the kid missed a voluntary work out, the results should still be the same.
Not that it really matters, I'm fully on board with this being really dumb even with no religious component,
but the phrasing on the ESPN version of this story is a tad subtle,
"The player and his family are a members of the Hebrew Israelite religious faith",
If I throw 'Hebrew Israelite' into google, it only brings back results for 'Black Hebrew Israelite',
Who knows how well the coach knew this kid or his family (could really be all over the spectrum), it's possible he had no idea what this kid's religious beliefs were prior to the kid saying 'I don't eat pork'
I have seen reports where the student was given the option to eat chicken nuggets instead and chose to take the pork off the pizza. Which actually makes me feel a little bit better because that might mean that the coaches were being disciplined for the bullying and not simply the religious aspect |
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Post by 19delta on Jun 4, 2021 11:31:16 GMT -6
Absolutely. My concern is that even if the student was not Jewish, or if he was but they knew he ate pork all the time (even if it was against his tenants) and he was just using that as a "f you, I won't do it and you can't make me" thing the idea that they were going to humiliate a student for missing a voluntary work out should be grounds for firing. I am concerned that the religious aspects are going to dominate the headlines, and in my opinion that should not matter one bit. If the entire story was simply the coaches made a kid eat a pizza while they (and team mates) berated him because the kid missed a voluntary work out, the results should still be the same.
Not that it really matters, I'm fully on board with this being really dumb even with no religious component,
but the phrasing on the ESPN version of this story is a tad subtle,
"The player and his family are a members of the Hebrew Israelite religious faith",
If I throw 'Hebrew Israelite' into google, it only brings back results for 'Black Hebrew Israelite',
Who knows how well the coach knew this kid or his family (could really be all over the spectrum), it's possible he had no idea what this kid's religious beliefs were prior to the kid saying 'I don't eat pork'
The attorney for the fired head coach is claiming that the whole situation has been blown out of proportion and this was nothing more than a coach trying to motivate a recalcitant player: www.wkyc.com/article/sports/high-school/hs-football/canton-school-board-meeting-mckinley-high-school-football-coaches/95-a52164d7-9453-4b22-880f-f0f15ae378b5 |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 4, 2021 12:01:22 GMT -6
Not that it really matters, I'm fully on board with this being really dumb even with no religious component,
but the phrasing on the ESPN version of this story is a tad subtle,
"The player and his family are a members of the Hebrew Israelite religious faith",
If I throw 'Hebrew Israelite' into google, it only brings back results for 'Black Hebrew Israelite',
Who knows how well the coach knew this kid or his family (could really be all over the spectrum), it's possible he had no idea what this kid's religious beliefs were prior to the kid saying 'I don't eat pork'
The attorney for the fired head coach is claiming that the whole situation has been blown out of proportion and this was nothing more than a coach trying to motivate a recalcitant player: www.wkyc.com/article/sports/high-school/hs-football/canton-school-board-meeting-mckinley-high-school-football-coaches/95-a52164d7-9453-4b22-880f-f0f15ae378b5 That is why I have said I am glad there was the pork/religious issue. I agree that very likely the situation was indeed blown out of proportion with regards to religious persecution.That should not matter |
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Post by 19delta on Jun 4, 2021 12:26:07 GMT -6
That is why I have said I am glad there was the pork/religious issue. I agree that very likely the situation was indeed blown out of proportion with regards to religious persecution.That should not matter Agreed. This was dumb from the moment the pizza was ordered. |
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Post by blb on Jun 4, 2021 12:40:53 GMT -6
I don't think "dumb" or "stupid" are adequate to describe what happened here.
More like appalling and incomprehensible.
Possibly criminal (hazing).
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Post by macdiiddy on Jun 4, 2021 14:31:31 GMT -6
At least no body shots of maple syrup were involved... Devils advocate. But what if the syrup was Kosher certified.... |
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Post by gian3074 on Jun 4, 2021 15:41:21 GMT -6
Sadly when you look at coaching scandals (high school or college) there are always the assistants who watch and choose to do nothing. Ain’t just sports. Truly horrific events in history have a long list of those who stood by and watched. As a history teacher I can attest to that. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 4, 2021 15:55:30 GMT -6
Ain’t just sports. Truly horrific events in history have a long list of those who stood by and watched. As a history teacher I can attest to that. It's human nature. Watch any number of those set up incidents where people watch all sorts of terrible situations and do nothing. It think the watch and do nothing crowd is usually around 70%. The number skyrockets up if there's an authority figure ordering the atrocity. There's a study out about it, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it. People are sheep. |
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Post by silkyice on Jun 4, 2021 16:09:53 GMT -6
I was just going to post this story. What are some people thinking? Did the coach wake up and think, "How can i phuk up my career today?"? This is like calling 4 verticals on 4th and inches with Jim Brown as your RB 😄 Jim is 85 now. But I bet he would still pick up the first down.  |
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Post by tripsclosed on Jun 4, 2021 18:02:54 GMT -6
This is like calling 4 verticals on 4th and inches with Jim Brown as your RB 😄 Jim is 85 now. But I bet he would still pick up the first down. For real |
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 4, 2021 18:07:48 GMT -6
Jim is 85 now. But I bet he would still pick up the first down. For real I'm not telling him he can't. |
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Post by freezeoption on Jun 5, 2021 7:03:46 GMT -6
A bunch of FB coaching jobs open at that school.
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Post by gian3074 on Jun 5, 2021 10:37:45 GMT -6
As a history teacher I can attest to that. It's human nature. Watch any number of those set up incidents where people watch all sorts of terrible situations and do nothing. It think the watch and do nothing crowd is usually around 70%. The number skyrockets up if there's an authority figure ordering the atrocity. There's a study out about it, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it. People are sheep. The Milgram Experiment |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 10:47:07 GMT -6
It's human nature. Watch any number of those set up incidents where people watch all sorts of terrible situations and do nothing. It think the watch and do nothing crowd is usually around 70%. The number skyrockets up if there's an authority figure ordering the atrocity. There's a study out about it, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it. People are sheep. The Milgram Experiment SHeep follow and thus concludes the lesson on human nature. |
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Post by coachdubyah on Jun 5, 2021 10:51:24 GMT -6
I’ll probably get raked over the coals for this but recently there have been a few more articles about this and it seems there’s more to the story…as there always is. Still not a good idea for a “punishment”.
I’m also of the belief that articles such as this are written to get a response rather than provide all the details…this response doesn’t really offer much but doesn’t take away either. Be smart about “punishments”.
Edit: Someone May have said this but I didn’t read all the posts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 10:54:39 GMT -6
I’ll probably get raked over the coals for this but recently there have been a few more articles about this and it seems there’s more to the story…as there always is. Still not a good idea for a “punishment”. I’m also of the belief that articles such as this are written to get a response rather than provide all the details…this response doesn’t really offer much but doesn’t take away either. Be smart about “punishments”. Edit: Someone May have said this but I didn’t read all the posts. As a history major, working slowly through graduate, they teach to eliminate if at all bias and just stick to the facts. The problem is you could never write anything ever, because the facts are voluminous. To write anything, you must have and take bias. Almost every story has a bias, revealed or not. |
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Post by blb on Jun 5, 2021 10:57:51 GMT -6
No punishment is a good idea for being late to or missing a voluntary activity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2021 10:58:49 GMT -6
No punishment is a good idea for being late to or missing a voluntary activity. Unless you decide you are playing god(this isnt about you or me picking at you) |
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 5, 2021 15:37:39 GMT -6
It's human nature. Watch any number of those set up incidents where people watch all sorts of terrible situations and do nothing. It think the watch and do nothing crowd is usually around 70%. The number skyrockets up if there's an authority figure ordering the atrocity. There's a study out about it, but I can't for the life of me remember the name of it. People are sheep. The Milgram Experiment Thank you. |
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Post by 19delta on Jun 5, 2021 19:42:36 GMT -6
No punishment is a good idea for being late to or missing a voluntary activity. The single biggest motivator for the kids I have coached has always been playing time. If kids aren't meeting the expectations required to be a member of the team, restricting their playing time has been the single best strategy to convince them to come to Jesus. Apparently, the kid at the center of the McKinley story is a really good player who is attracting scholarship offers. I get the sense that the head coach (Wattley) wanted to discipline this kid but in such a way that his considerable football skill could still be exploited. Rather than the ridiculously clumsy, Rube Goldbergian attempt at discipline Wattley came up with, this is what he should have done: 1) Don't have voluntary practices that are really mandatory 2) Let kids know up front that if they miss team functions, there will be a reduction in playing time That's really all he needed to do. I think his problem was that he knew he had a player who was really talented but maybe also a little selfish so not playing that kid was just not a reasonable option. She he cooked up a "punishment" that he thought would communicate his dissatisfaction with the player to the rest of the team but still allow him to play. The other issue is that I'm not exactly sure what team rule the kid broke. I have read in several articles that the kid was not considered to be a team player and was selfish. But I haven't read anything specific other than the missed voluntary practice (that apparently was mandatory). Given that, I think the other important lesson from this incident is that if a coach is going to discipline a kid, that coach needs to be able to specifically detail the transgressions that were committed. |
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Post by freezeoption on Jun 6, 2021 10:31:05 GMT -6
The kids a Jew and getting scholarship offers. Not to be the devil advocate, but if you are a strict Jew then playing on Saturdays for you will be tough. That is their Sabbath. Remember the movie School Ties. There was a good lineman from BYU that could have gone high in the draft but didn't want to go in the NFL because they played on Sunday.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 11:11:35 GMT -6
The kids a Jew and getting scholarship offers. Not to be the devil advocate, but if you are a strict Jew then playing on Saturdays for you will be tough. That is their Sabbath. Remember the movie School Ties. There was a good lineman from BYU that could have gone high in the draft but didn't want to go in the NFL because they played on Sunday. If people understood the good book, they would realize so many of the rules they live by are unnecessary, if not down right stupid. |
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Post by blb on Jun 6, 2021 11:30:03 GMT -6
If people understood the good book, they would realize so many of the rules they live by are unnecessary, if not down right stupid. So you advocate for people deciding for themselves based on their own interpretations (or convenience) of the Bible which "rules" are unnecessary-stupid, and which to abide by? I assume you feel the same then about local, state, and federal laws? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2021 11:46:29 GMT -6
If people understood the good book, they would realize so many of the rules they live by are unnecessary, if not down right stupid. So you advocate for people deciding for themselves based on their own interpretations (or convenience) of the Bible which "rules" are unnecessary-stupid, and which to abide by? I assume you feel the same then about local, state, and federal laws? Do you think the good is about rules and laws? |
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Post by blb on Jun 6, 2021 11:47:54 GMT -6
So you advocate for people deciding for themselves based on their own interpretations (or convenience) of the Bible which "rules" are unnecessary-stupid, and which to abide by? I assume you feel the same then about local, state, and federal laws? Do you think the good is about rules and laws? I didn't originate the discussion about the "good book," you did. Answer my questions, and not with a question. |
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Post by fantom on Jun 6, 2021 11:51:26 GMT -6
So you advocate for people deciding for themselves based on their own interpretations (or convenience) of the Bible which "rules" are unnecessary-stupid, and which to abide by? I assume you feel the same then about local, state, and federal laws? Do you think the good is about rules and laws? Not a day goes by when I don't meet people who, whether they know it or not, should be happy that assault and battery is against the law. |
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Post by 19delta on Jun 6, 2021 11:53:29 GMT -6
The kids a Jew and getting scholarship offers. Not to be the devil advocate, but if you are a strict Jew then playing on Saturdays for you will be tough. That is their Sabbath. Remember the movie School Ties. There was a good lineman from BYU that could have gone high in the draft but didn't want to go in the NFL because they played on Sunday. All that might be true but has no bearing on how a high school coach should discipline players. |
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