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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 28, 2021 21:16:02 GMT -6
What are your thoughts on the next developments/evolutions in the game of football?
Note: I am not talking about old trends coming back around, either in the same form or some altered form (an example of that would be single wing coming back around in Urban Meyer's offense and the Wildcat). What I am talking about is new stuff.
For an example of this that has already happened, think about pattern read coverage. This wasn't much of a thing if at all 50 years ago. Today it has exploded into all kinds of variations
Another example would be modern RPOs. No one pushed the limit with RPOs 50 years ago like people have started to do the last 10 years
Another example would be widespread and significantly developed use of no huddle and tempo. There's no huddle hurry up, no huddle lightning, no huddle maximum slowdown, etc
I don't want to sound nearsighted, but are we perhaps reaching a ceiling/natural limit/zenith in terms of new developments? It seems like we are running out of new stuff. I can't see much more new that could emerge, but there again, a lot of coaches 50 years ago couldn't envision what we have now.
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Post by chi5hi on Apr 28, 2021 22:17:07 GMT -6
Interesting. I sure wish I had a crystal ball.
New "developments" can wreak havoc for a couple of years until someone stops it. Then, for the next couple of years everyone who jumps on board, (O or D) refines a technique...changes personnel...writes a book, starts a blog...then, when you take it apart and analyze it, you realize that it's all been done before.
Something of what we're doing today was probably done by Glen Warner in 1912. It was just tweaked a bit.
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 28, 2021 22:42:17 GMT -6
Interesting. I sure wish I had a crystal ball. New "developments" can wreak havoc for a couple of years until someone stops it. Then, for the next couple of years everyone who jumps on board, (O or D) refines a technique...changes personnel...writes a book, starts a blog...then, when you take it apart and analyze it, you realize that it's all been done before. Something of what we're doing today was probably done by Glen Warner in 1912. It was just tweaked a bit. Yeah. I mentioned RPOs, that's certainly not entirely new depending on which RPO you are talking about, but the level coaches have taken it to is definitely new. It obviously works and is very effective, so why didn't the "RPO revolution" happen 50 or 60 years ago instead of only in the last 10 years? That's something that came about because some coaches started experimenting and also pushing the envelope in terms of the rules, discovered something that worked, and it started catching on. I can't envision there being too many more things like that being "uncovered"/discovered. I mean, what's next, the defense reading the offense reading their pattern reads and matching? LOL. That's like the espionage "Do they know that I know that they know about this?" At some point that has to terminate. Some of what I think is at play here is you have reached a certain level of collective awareness and, maybe call it, strategic and tactical competence, where, while you will have the back and forth between offensive and defensive innovation as long as football is around, you won't see the coaching ranks forget or get away from the ideas of things like no huddle and tempo. People now realize what you can do with tempo and no huddle, and we have a solidified and developed idea of that stuff, and coaches will choose to use to use it in different ways. 50 years ago, you didn't have a collective awareness and well-developed idea of tempo and no huddle. So, again, I just can't see too many more new things getting discovered and solidified like this. One of the more recent trends is sim pressures and creeper pressures but that is FAR from new and revolutionary. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 29, 2021 5:59:12 GMT -6
Interesting. I sure wish I had a crystal ball. New "developments" can wreak havoc for a couple of years until someone stops it. Then, for the next couple of years everyone who jumps on board, (O or D) refines a technique...changes personnel...writes a book, starts a blog...then, when you take it apart and analyze it, you realize that it's all been done before. Something of what we're doing today was probably done by Glen Warner in 1912. It was just tweaked a bit. Yeah. I mentioned RPOs, that's certainly not entirely new depending on which RPO you are talking about, but the level coaches have taken it to is definitely new. It obviously works and is very effective, so why didn't the "RPO revolution" happen 50 or 60 years ago instead of only in the last 10 years? That's something that came about because some coaches started experimenting and also pushing the envelope in terms of the rules, discovered something that worked, and it started catching on. I can't envision there being too many more things like that being "uncovered"/discovered. . What you are describing has happened for millennia in all fields. That is what makes something innovative- nobody could imagine it previously The Innovacion might be in something schematic, war philosophical. For example how many of the recent and next round of great wide receivers would have been defense of ends in the past? You were seeing adventure paradigm shift in major league baseball end basketball with regards to scoring. In baseball swing mechanics are changing as data is showing the most efficient way to score might be The long ball (plus chicks dig it). In basketball three point shots are hit with such accuracy that it is redefining appropriate shooting range Something like that will come along in football soon – but no one will ever think of it until someone actually thinks of it |
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Post by tog on Apr 29, 2021 7:19:16 GMT -6
there is nothing new under the sun
except rule changes and politics ruining the game
and that aint new either
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 29, 2021 7:21:38 GMT -6
Yeah. I mentioned RPOs, that's certainly not entirely new depending on which RPO you are talking about, but the level coaches have taken it to is definitely new. It obviously works and is very effective, so why didn't the "RPO revolution" happen 50 or 60 years ago instead of only in the last 10 years? That's something that came about because some coaches started experimenting and also pushing the envelope in terms of the rules, discovered something that worked, and it started catching on. I can't envision there being too many more things like that being "uncovered"/discovered. . What you are describing has happened for millennia in all fields. That is what makes something innovative- nobody could imagine it previously The Innovacion might be in something schematic, war philosophical. For example how many of the recent and next round of great wide receivers would have been defense of ends in the past? You were seeing adventure paradigm shift in major league baseball end basketball with regards to scoring. In baseball swing mechanics are changing as data is showing the most efficient way to score might be The long ball (plus chicks dig it). In basketball three point shots are hit with such accuracy that it is redefining appropriate shooting range Something like that will come along in football soon – but no one will ever think of it until someone actually thinks of it I get what you are saying, but at the same time, at some point, arent we going to reach a point where there's not much else we can innovate? And, having the perspective and information we do now, it seems like we are approaching that point. What you mention about the receivers and ends, that's more a result of changes in players rather than something that is a strategic or tactical innovation...I guess you were just trying to make an analogy, just saying that's not an example of what I am talking about. |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 29, 2021 7:32:26 GMT -6
Football is cyclical, offensively and defensively.
10 personnel spread was considered the height of offensive football for a decade or so. Defenses adjusted with various coverages and lighter personnel. Offenses responded by adding heavier personnel and now you have "spread" teams that are basically running a dressed up SW, one of the oldest in football.
IMO, the only "revolutionary" trend that I've seen over the last few decades is Saban's C3 concepts. And that's still nothing new; just pattern matching and reading applied in a more effective manner.
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Post by fantom on Apr 29, 2021 7:37:24 GMT -6
there is nothing new under the sun except rule changes and politics ruining the game and that aint new either And neither are coaches complaining about it. Coaches complained that banning the flying wedge and legalizing the forward pass were ruining the game. |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 29, 2021 9:49:49 GMT -6
there is nothing new under the sun except rule changes and politics ruining the game and that aint new either And neither are coaches complaining about it. Coaches complained that banning the flying wedge and legalizing the forward pass were ruining the game.
My only gripe is that some "trends" are being viewed as Gospel. The Wing-T, DW, I-formation, Wishbone (etc...) are becoming harder and harder to pitch these days. They used to be "old school" but now more folks view them as obsolete. As such, football is becoming less cyclical and, well, boring.
The same goes for defense, I pitch the 4-2-5 but what we run is nothing more than a 4-4 with pattern matching and reading. I'd have a hard time getting buy-in if I called it anything but the 4-2-5.
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Post by aceback76 on Apr 29, 2021 10:57:56 GMT -6
It is always better to physically beat your opponent than to try to outsmart him! Humpty Dumpty might have outsmarted Lawrence Taylor, but he would get his ass kicked on every snap.
Look for "new" developments to improve "physicality".
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Post by coachks on Apr 29, 2021 11:36:10 GMT -6
Innovation tends to happen because of rule changes. Why didn't the RPO happen in the 1950s and 1960s? Different ball, different shape, different material. It was harder to throw and catch before. Before the 1980s you couldn't use hands in blocking. Those are some serious rule changes that created the conditions for the "West Coast Offense" to really evolve. There is no "air raid" if you have to use shoulders to block.
I would also make a strong argument that technological advancements (Hudl in particular) have made certain offenses possible at the lower levels. When I first started coaching, we would film 1 or 2 practices a season (usually intrasquad scrimmages). Now we film practice every day. It makes reading certain things a lot more plausible when you have HD film for every session.
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mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 220
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Post by mc140 on Apr 29, 2021 11:56:06 GMT -6
It is interesting how things change every few years.
When I started coaching almost 20 years ago half the teams on our schedule were either some type of Double Wing or Flex Bone. I saw it this year for the first time in 8 years. We also went through a phase where virtually every team was no hudle and signaling in plays. This year the majority were not hurry up and less than half signaled.
We don't see another significant change until there is some type of rule change that comes along.
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Post by blb on Apr 29, 2021 13:50:31 GMT -6
I hate to say it, and hope I'm wrong, but - HS Football is going to become a combination of Flag and-or "Air Force" Football within the next decade or two.
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Post by fantom on Apr 29, 2021 14:53:06 GMT -6
I hate to say it, and hope I'm wrong, but - HS Football is going to become a combination of Flag and-or "Air Force" Football within the next decade or two. Maybe I'm an outlier among old-timers but I don't see rules designed to make the game safer as hurting the game. |
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Post by blb on Apr 29, 2021 14:58:29 GMT -6
I hate to say it, and hope I'm wrong, but - HS Football is going to become a combination of Flag and-or "Air Force" Football within the next decade or two. Maybe I'm an outlier among old-timers but I don't see rules designed to make the game safer as hurting the game. Not "hurting" the game, just changing it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2021 15:45:28 GMT -6
I dont think tackle football, at the going rate, is going to be legal at and on any level in 10-15 years. And it will be the least of our concerns.
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Post by 53 on Apr 29, 2021 16:03:27 GMT -6
I dont think tackle football, at the going rate, is going to be legal at and on any level in 10-15 years. And it will be the least of our concerns. Sounds like we will have a true national divorce then and the country will break up into other countries. This is just another issue that seems to have two totally different perspectives depending on where you live. I don’t see certain regions in our country just giving up football |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2021 16:16:54 GMT -6
I dont think tackle football, at the going rate, is going to be legal at and on any level in 10-15 years. And it will be the least of our concerns. Sounds like we will have a true national divorce then and the country will break up into other countries. This is just another issue that seems to have two totally different perspectives depending on where you live. I don’t see certain regions in our country just giving up football I pray every day with idea you and I are wrong. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 29, 2021 20:08:57 GMT -6
Innovation tends to happen because of rule changes. Why didn't the RPO happen in the 1950s and 1960s? Different ball, different shape, different material. It was harder to throw and catch before. When did that change? |
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Post by fantom on Apr 29, 2021 20:15:46 GMT -6
Innovation tends to happen because of rule changes. Why didn't the RPO happen in the 1950s and 1960s? Different ball, different shape, different material. It was harder to throw and catch before. When did that change? I looked it up. The NFL ball changed in the 1930's. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 29, 2021 21:07:44 GMT -6
I looked it up. The NFL ball changed in the 1930's. What about the HS and college footballs? Depending on when the NFL's current 1 yard ineligibles downfield limit came into play, it might never have been possible for the NFL to have an RPO revolution. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 29, 2021 21:19:39 GMT -6
What you are describing has happened for millennia in all fields. That is what makes something innovative- nobody could imagine it previously The Innovacion might be in something schematic, war philosophical. For example how many of the recent and next round of great wide receivers would have been defense of ends in the past? You were seeing adventure paradigm shift in major league baseball end basketball with regards to scoring. In baseball swing mechanics are changing as data is showing the most efficient way to score might be The long ball (plus chicks dig it). In basketball three point shots are hit with such accuracy that it is redefining appropriate shooting range Something like that will come along in football soon – but no one will ever think of it until someone actually thinks of it I get what you are saying, but at the same time, at some point, arent we going to reach a point where there's not much else we can innovate? And, having the perspective and information we do now, it seems like we are approaching that point. What you mention about the receivers and ends, that's more a result of changes in players rather than something that is a strategic or tactical innovation...I guess you were just trying to make an analogy, just saying that's not an example of what I am talking about. Innovation is innovation. Now, as others have mentioned, schematic type innovations probably change more due to rule changes, but the type of changes in mindset I mentioned will also fuel them. The proliferation of the fade pass as a staple of red zone play probably comes from the fact that Defensive Ends now play WR. Yes, schematic innovation frequency will trend downward the longer the governing dynamics (basically rules) remain the same. But as I said, no one will be able to imagine the next one until someone imagines the next one. That is how innovation in all fields works. |
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Post by fantom on Apr 29, 2021 21:32:28 GMT -6
I looked it up. The NFL ball changed in the 1930's. What about the HS and college footballs? Depending on when the NFL's current 1 yard ineligibles downfield limit came into play, it might never have been possible for the NFL to have an RPO revolution. I don't know that the ball had anything to do with it. And I don't know that RPO's are that new. A staple play for Lombardi's Giants in the 50's and Packers in the 60's was the option pass which was a true RPO. I'm thinking that the more refined modern RPOs probably didn't become popular not because of a rules change but because of the popularity of shotgun formations. It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that some HS coach was running modern-style RPOs in the 40's. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 29, 2021 22:26:58 GMT -6
I get what you are saying, but at the same time, at some point, arent we going to reach a point where there's not much else we can innovate? And, having the perspective and information we do now, it seems like we are approaching that point. What you mention about the receivers and ends, that's more a result of changes in players rather than something that is a strategic or tactical innovation...I guess you were just trying to make an analogy, just saying that's not an example of what I am talking about. Innovation is innovation. Now, as others have mentioned, schematic type innovations probably change more due to rule changes, but the type of changes in mindset I mentioned will also fuel them. The proliferation of the fade pass as a staple of red zone play probably comes from the fact that Defensive Ends now play WR. Yes, schematic innovation frequency will trend downward the longer the governing dynamics (basically rules) remain the same. But as I said, no one will be able to imagine the next one until someone imagines the next one. That is how innovation in all fields works. Fair enough |
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 29, 2021 22:30:17 GMT -6
What about the HS and college footballs? Depending on when the NFL's current 1 yard ineligibles downfield limit came into play, it might never have been possible for the NFL to have an RPO revolution. I don't know that the ball had anything to do with it. And I don't know that RPO's are that new. A staple play for Lombardi's Giants in the 50's and Packers in the 60's was the option pass which was a true RPO. I'm thinking that the more refined modern RPOs probably didn't become popular not because of a rules change but because of the popularity of shotgun formations. It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that some HS coach was running modern-style RPOs in the 40's. Good point about Lombardi's RB option pass. And, good point about shotgun, although, to suggest a counter-thought, shotgun use was pretty commonplace well before the modern RPO became a thing. I mean, I remember RPOs first really starting to blow up and become envogue in 2014. Why did it take that long? |
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Post by blb on Apr 30, 2021 6:25:47 GMT -6
What about the HS and college footballs? Depending on when the NFL's current 1 yard ineligibles downfield limit came into play, it might never have been possible for the NFL to have an RPO revolution. I don't know that the ball had anything to do with it. And I don't know that RPO's are that new. A staple play for Lombardi's Giants in the 50's and Packers in the 60's was the option pass which was a true RPO. I'm thinking that the more refined modern RPOs probably didn't become popular not because of a rules change but because of the popularity of shotgun formations. It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that some HS coach was running modern-style RPOs in the 40's. Bill Yeoman was running RPOs out of his Houston Veer offense in 1960s and '70s. |
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Post by bulldogsdc on Apr 30, 2021 7:25:10 GMT -6
I don't know that the ball had anything to do with it. And I don't know that RPO's are that new. A staple play for Lombardi's Giants in the 50's and Packers in the 60's was the option pass which was a true RPO. I'm thinking that the more refined modern RPOs probably didn't become popular not because of a rules change but because of the popularity of shotgun formations. It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that some HS coach was running modern-style RPOs in the 40's. Bill Yeoman was running RPOs out of his Houston Veer offense in 1960s and '70s. You got any film of this? |
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Post by blb on Apr 30, 2021 7:29:52 GMT -6
Bill Yeoman was running RPOs out of his Houston Veer offense in 1960s and '70s. You got any film of this? No, but you can see them in his playbook that's on line ( University of Houston Veer-T Offense).He called it his "400" series, ran them off Inside Veer, Counter Option, and Lead Option. |
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Post by IronmanFootball on Apr 30, 2021 8:11:00 GMT -6
Played a split back veer team in the mid 00's that would run now and bubbles to their slot as a pre-snap RPO.
Mumme claims he ran an RPO at Kentucky vs Florida bc of Kearse and then never did it again ('97?)
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Post by kcbazooka on Apr 30, 2021 8:15:40 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think?
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