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Post by bobgoodman on Apr 30, 2021 8:34:16 GMT -6
I don't know that the ball had anything to do with it. And I don't know that RPO's are that new. A staple play for Lombardi's Giants in the 50's and Packers in the 60's was the option pass which was a true RPO. I'm thinking that the more refined modern RPOs probably didn't become popular not because of a rules change but because of the popularity of shotgun formations. It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that some HS coach was running modern-style RPOs in the 40's. Bill Yeoman was running RPOs out of his Houston Veer offense in 1960s and '70s. You guys are talking about two very different flavors of RPO. The RPO as I knew it, that goes way, way back, threatens the edge with a run before the pass opens up. The pass is very much delayed. What people mean today by RPO, they're looking to pass from the pocket as soon as they gather the snap, with a run between the tackles there for when the pass isn't open. The read in this recent version is either pre-snap or very quick at the snap, and the ineligible receivers are timed to release very soon into the flow downfield. Both offense and defense have to scheme very differently for the two flavors of RPO. In the old style if an ineligible receiver who could actually affect the play gets downfield before the pass, it's easy for officials to see; not so in the more recent flavor.
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Post by bobgoodman on Apr 30, 2021 8:39:54 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think? That could develop, but again wouldn't be new but a revival of an old tactic. There were some split T teams where each HB had more and better passing stats than the QB, and the split T wasn't particularly known for HB passes compared to its predecessors. (I was just looking at Grey Cup game film from 70 years ago where that was true of one team, and almost true of the other.)
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Post by silkyice on Apr 30, 2021 8:53:03 GMT -6
Played a split back veer team in the mid 00's that would run now and bubbles to their slot as a pre-snap RPO. Mumme claims he ran an RPO at Kentucky vs Florida bc of Kearse and then never did it again ('97?) We ran a speed option with a slant back in 1986 when I played.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 30, 2021 8:59:59 GMT -6
Bill Yeoman was running RPOs out of his Houston Veer offense in 1960s and '70s. You guys are talking about two very different flavors of RPO. The RPO as I knew it, that goes way, way back, threatens the edge with a run before the pass opens up. The pass is very much delayed. What people mean today by RPO, they're looking to pass from the pocket as soon as they gather the snap, with a run between the tackles there for when the pass isn't open. The read in this recent version is either pre-snap or very quick at the snap, and the ineligible receivers are timed to release very soon into the flow downfield. Both offense and defense have to scheme very differently for the two flavors of RPO. In the old style if an ineligible receiver who could actually affect the play gets downfield before the pass, it's easy for officials to see; not so in the more recent flavor. I actually started a thread a few years ago saying that. There are three types of RPO’s in my mind. RPO - Run Pass Option - QB has kept the ball and is threatening to run it or pass. Nick Marshall at Auburn in kick six game. GPO - Give Pass Option - QB reads someone and decides to give it to a running back or throw it. QB will not run it. The current RPO. SRO - Screen Run Option pre-snap decide if you will throw a screen, bubble most likely, or hand the ball off.
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Post by Defcord on Apr 30, 2021 9:08:10 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think? Is that kind of what the A11 was supposed to turn into?
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Post by pistolwhipped on Apr 30, 2021 9:35:54 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think? Played in a flag tournament right after college. Team came in and absolutely housed everyone with all dudes that looked like they camped at the Phish concert last night. Every single catch was lateralled several times down the field. Fumbles were ruled dead and given back to offense so the fear of losing the ball was gone but I've always admired their intuition for exploiting that rule. Imagine defending a team that was extremely good at laterals down field that were actually built into their offense.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Apr 30, 2021 9:59:42 GMT -6
Played a split back veer team in the mid 00's that would run now and bubbles to their slot as a pre-snap RPO. Mumme claims he ran an RPO at Kentucky vs Florida bc of Kearse and then never did it again ('97?) We ran a speed option with a slant back in 1986 when I played. "Back in my da..." no wait, this time us old farts CAN SAY back in my day!
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Post by silkyice on Apr 30, 2021 10:45:43 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think? Is that kind of what the A11 was supposed to turn into? A-11 was about throwing it to any of the 11 guys. Everyone had an eligible number on. Only 5 (6 counting qb) would be eligible, but the defense had to figure out which 5 every play.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 30, 2021 10:46:27 GMT -6
What about the HS and college footballs? Depending on when the NFL's current 1 yard ineligibles downfield limit came into play, it might never have been possible for the NFL to have an RPO revolution. I don't know that the ball had anything to do with it. And I don't know that RPO's are that new. A staple play for Lombardi's Giants in the 50's and Packers in the 60's was the option pass which was a true RPO. I'm thinking that the more refined modern RPOs probably didn't become popular not because of a rules change but because of the popularity of shotgun formations. It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that some HS coach was running modern-style RPOs in the 40's.
Yup. You can find an "RPO" in many Veer playbooks that are decades-old. Schematically, they look a whole helluva lot like what "spread" teams are doing now...
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Post by blb on Apr 30, 2021 10:49:45 GMT -6
I don't know that the ball had anything to do with it. And I don't know that RPO's are that new. A staple play for Lombardi's Giants in the 50's and Packers in the 60's was the option pass which was a true RPO. I'm thinking that the more refined modern RPOs probably didn't become popular not because of a rules change but because of the popularity of shotgun formations. It also wouldn't surprise me to hear that some HS coach was running modern-style RPOs in the 40's.
Yup. You can find an "RPO" in many Veer playbooks that are decades-old. Schematically, they look a whole helluva lot like what "spread" teams are doing now...
Art Briles played and coached for Yeoman at UH...
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Post by Defcord on Apr 30, 2021 12:09:01 GMT -6
Is that kind of what the A11 was supposed to turn into? A-11 was about throwing it to any of the 11 guys. Everyone had an eligible number on. Only 5 (6 counting qb) would be eligible, but the defense had to figure out which 5 every play. I remember all of that aspect but I thought it also included multiple ball carriers each play.
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Post by wolverine55 on Apr 30, 2021 12:23:51 GMT -6
A-11 talk led me to googling "Kurt Bryan" which led me to an article that mentioned the A-11 was banned in 2009. Remembering the talks on here and seeing it was banned that long ago made me feel very old...
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Post by mnike23 on Apr 30, 2021 12:32:31 GMT -6
good ole wing t waggle is the truest form of rpo there is fake trap, fake buck, roll out and if green grass that means fb in flat is covered, and run like he77. if no green grass, fb or TE late drag, is open throw them the ball. how long has waggle been around? but thats not the OP question.
new football, what is it, what more can we evolve too? offenses are already intricate, but simple, defenses are the same. to reinvent the wheel is a bit silly, but to see someone in 100 and run buck sweep vs a DC thats still wet behind the ears is pretty comical. they are looking around like what am i supposed to do with all these fakes and cant find the ball, f it, just blitz everyone. some said it already, its a cycle. whats old will be new again (in some form) power I from the gun is still power I. wing t from gun is still wing T 4-2-5 sure does look like a 4-3/4-4 in many places. 3-4 lined up, sure does look like the old 50 defense.
great post, lots of knowledge here
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Post by bleefb on Apr 30, 2021 15:25:30 GMT -6
I remember going to a clinic after my first year (1977) and one of the Washington schools (don't remember which one) was running triple option and using RPO's off of that.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 1, 2021 5:12:42 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think? back in the early 90's our JV head coach used the RB to throw the ball all the time b/c the QB couldn't hit throw it into the ocean from a row boat.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2021 7:39:33 GMT -6
The game is so rigidly structured by rules that a lot of “innovation” in terms of Xs and Os is difficult.
Compounding this is that football attracts a very conservative, orthodox culture around it that will jump all over any coach who tries to do stuff “the wrong way,” even if it works. You already see this with coaches who run “outdated” offenses... just think of how hard people are on coaches doing “weird” stuff no one has ever seen. I include not only fans, but other coaches, players, administrators, and media types in this.
Some things I could see becoming more fashionable over the next few years:
“Heavy spread” offenses—meaning teams who line up in gun or pistol formations and use what has become standard “spread stuff” like Zone Read, Power Read, and post-snap RPOs but with multiple TEs and FBs brought into the formation to adjust who gets read and who gets blocked in subtle, but important, ways.
“Super spread” OLs with extra wide splits—maybe 10’+—across the board and a much greater emphasis on screens and possibly on backwards passes, adding an almost rugby flavor to the game.
“Neo-8 man front” defenses—by this I mean defenses with 3 devoted deep secondary players, 6 designated “box players” and then a pair of “overhang” OLB/CBs whose job is mostly to reroute, play flats, and sink with receivers running downfield. The ISU “3 safety” dime defense, to my eyes, really seems to be a kind of convergent evolution back towards this but with more modern coverage ideas.
Special teams are an area I think are ripe for evolution. Reverses, laterals, different approaches to when and how to kick or punt.... these are all things that have been around a while, yet you rarely see anybody take risks on special teams because the risk is so high... but so the potential rewards could be, as well. As offenses and defenses have evolved, special team strategy is still pretty much the same as it’s been for decades.
The elephant in the room is how CTE fears and cultural changes exacerbated by the pandemic will affect the sport, especially at the HS and youth levels. I can easily see schools ceding a lot more ground in teenage athletics to private trainers, “handlers,” and independent AAU-style traveling or co-op teams who market themselves much like a pro team would and emphasize recruiting and preparing athletes for BCS competition, but possibly even play a HS schedule. IMG Academy is a harbinger of things to come.
I also feel like we’re going to see a lot more kids “opting out” of their seasons when they get frustrated or see it as pointless and coaches just having to deal with it while colleges continue to recruit the stud athletes.
I can also see a lot more schools, especially small schools or scabs strapped schools, just folding up their football programs altogether. Football can be a huge moneymaker in a lot of places, but it can also be a money pit for many others. If schools don’t fold up outright, I can even foresee a movement to do more 6-9 man football leagues (which many people balk at as “not real football”) or just do touch football/intermurals with “gender equality” to save on costs.
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Post by coachwoodall on May 1, 2021 19:46:54 GMT -6
What are your thoughts on the next developments/evolutions in the game of football? Note: I am not talking about old trends coming back around, either in the same form or some altered form (an example of that would be single wing coming back around in Urban Meyer's offense and the Wildcat). What I am talking about is new stuff. For an example of this that has already happened, think about pattern read coverage. This wasn't much of a thing if at all 50 years ago. Today it has exploded into all kinds of variations Another example would be modern RPOs. No one pushed the limit with RPOs 50 years ago like people have started to do the last 10 years Another example would be widespread and significantly developed use of no huddle and tempo. There's no huddle hurry up, no huddle lightning, no huddle maximum slowdown, etc I don't want to sound nearsighted, but are we perhaps reaching a ceiling/natural limit/zenith in terms of new developments? It seems like we are running out of new stuff. I can't see much more new that could emerge, but there again, a lot of coaches 50 years ago couldn't envision what we have now. This reminds me in my studies of Marxism. Innovation doesn't come from a panel of enlightened individuals. Innovation comes from a guy just trying to scratch by, working in his garage. You're asking the former. The latter is probably still trying to make the team.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 1, 2021 19:59:13 GMT -6
What are your thoughts on the next developments/evolutions in the game of football? Note: I am not talking about old trends coming back around, either in the same form or some altered form (an example of that would be single wing coming back around in Urban Meyer's offense and the Wildcat). What I am talking about is new stuff. For an example of this that has already happened, think about pattern read coverage. This wasn't much of a thing if at all 50 years ago. Today it has exploded into all kinds of variations Another example would be modern RPOs. No one pushed the limit with RPOs 50 years ago like people have started to do the last 10 years Another example would be widespread and significantly developed use of no huddle and tempo. There's no huddle hurry up, no huddle lightning, no huddle maximum slowdown, etc I don't want to sound nearsighted, but are we perhaps reaching a ceiling/natural limit/zenith in terms of new developments? It seems like we are running out of new stuff. I can't see much more new that could emerge, but there again, a lot of coaches 50 years ago couldn't envision what we have now. This reminds me in my studies of Marxism. Innovation doesn't come from a panel of enlightened individuals. Innovation comes from a guy just trying to scratch by, working in his garage. You're asking the former. The latter is probably still trying to make the team. Deep. Probably very accurate.
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Post by coachks on May 3, 2021 5:40:23 GMT -6
Nebraska ran a play against Michigan, this is probably 8 years ago now - I'm pretty sure Ahmeer Abudllah was the runningback, where they ran the Invert Veer, handed it on the outside sweep, and then the RB ran it like speed option and pitched. So it was triple option, but with 3 different ball carriers.
In a sense its cyclical - I mean it really isn't that different in concept to some very old single wing stuff with wide laterals and 3-4 ball handlers - in a sense it would be innovative... taking those principles and applying it to a "spread" offense with a lot more options.
In short, a lot more laterals / options by non-QB players. I don't know what the practical limit would be ... but running something like triple option with 2 pitches, hook and lateral as an option ect.
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lmorris
Sophomore Member
Posts: 195
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Post by lmorris on May 3, 2021 7:37:30 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think? I feel like I watched an 8 man championship game, and almost every play was this. Motion someone around to flip the ball to him and he would pass or run. Really seemed like both teams took this approach.
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Post by bulldogsdc on May 11, 2021 17:13:47 GMT -6
You got any film of this? No, but you can see them in his playbook that's on line ( University of Houston Veer-T Offense).He called it his "400" series, ran them off Inside Veer, Counter Option, and Lead Option. I popped off on Twitter and now I have to back it up. Can’t find 400 series on the internets
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Post by blb on May 11, 2021 18:40:12 GMT -6
No, but you can see them in his playbook that's on line ( University of Houston Veer-T Offense).He called it his "400" series, ran them off Inside Veer, Counter Option, and Lead Option. I popped off on Twitter and now I have to back it up. Can’t find 400 series on the internets Google the playbook (italicized in my post). When you find that look for the plays that begin with a '4' - 413, etc.
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Post by veerwego on May 13, 2021 8:59:19 GMT -6
OK, I got a possible new development - how about an increase in the passing game with non-quarterbacks throwing the ball. Not the one a game HB pass but more of a 5-10 times a game. Passes by RB, jets, WR double passes. Have QB eligible to slow man coverage. Playground football at an organized level. What do you think? Played in a flag tournament right after college. Team came in and absolutely housed everyone with all dudes that looked like they camped at the Phish concert last night. Every single catch was lateralled several times down the field. Fumbles were ruled dead and given back to offense so the fear of losing the ball was gone but I've always admired their intuition for exploiting that rule. Imagine defending a team that was extremely good at laterals down field that were actually built into their offense. Kevin Kelley at Pulaski did this some a few years ago. Not sure what came of it. Good idea. Always thought about trying something like this, especially if your back up QB is a WR. Ball on LH, line up in trips bunched Right with your point guy on the RH. Have him run vertical right down the hash. Have your inside WR run a crossing route just under the FS to the boundary to occupy him. Have your outside WR start out and then come back under the vertical and attack the deep middle. Let your QB take a look at the deep ball and then have the boundary WR running a shallow cross as check down. Let the back check protection or play action to him and then he runs out to get in pitch relationship with the shallow cross and run speed option down the field off the first thing that shows. Could also do this off a reverse and have your QB become the pitch man.
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