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Post by fkaboneyard on Jan 19, 2021 9:50:17 GMT -6
Coaches knowingly send OL downfield on RPO's. Coaches intentionally take delay of game penalties, many other examples of intentionally breaking the rules. Stealing your opponents play-call signals is another one that can be considered a grey area.
While I agree that some of the scenarios in this thread are "bush league", I'm not sure who ultimately gets to decide when breaking the rules is considered "good coaching" versus when it's considered "bush league". What about finding a loophole in the rules? Is it unethical to exploit that loophole? Seems like whenever Belichick does it, he's praised as a genius, but sometimes others are called cheaters.
Maybe it's just me but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We played a team and wrecked them every year because their signals were the same year after year. After the second year the OC said to our DC, "Man, it was like you were in the huddle with us" and he replied, "We were. You should change your signals." The next year they had a benchwarmer standing next to the OC doing his own signals that didn't even come close to resembling any of their signals (at one point he had his hands in his pits and was flapping his elbows like a chicken, scratching at the grass with his foot). They eventually gave up and just counted us as a loss. If a team doesn't take pains, that's their problem.
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Jan 19, 2021 10:03:26 GMT -6
Post by s73 on Jan 19, 2021 10:03:26 GMT -6
You gotta grab something when blocking right? I've always taught that grab the breastplate of the shoulder pads. Keep your hands tight. Most people would also agree that it's more with your feet and reaching where you get called for holding. We've basically been told by referees that they know the OL is holding every play, but the defender has to 'show' that he is trying to escape. |
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Ethics
Jan 19, 2021 10:06:27 GMT -6
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Post by s73 on Jan 19, 2021 10:06:27 GMT -6
You gotta grab something when blocking right? I've always taught that grab the breastplate of the shoulder pads. Keep your hands tight. Most people would also agree that it's more with your feet and reaching where you get called for holding. We've basically been told by referees that they know the OL is holding every play, but the defender has to 'show' that he is trying to escape. See.....this is where my "old school" approach is getting phased out of the game. First, i gotta listen to "why don't we pass more" Then I gotta listen to If we were in the gun we'd pass more Then, when my guys block downfield, we're actually RUNNING the ball Now, b/c we shoulder block I'm missing out on the holding to? Man...based on all this info I guess I need to start yelling more nonsense from the sideline LOL. |
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Jan 19, 2021 10:12:59 GMT -6
Post by coachwoodall on Jan 19, 2021 10:12:59 GMT -6
We've basically been told by referees that they know the OL is holding every play, but the defender has to 'show' that he is trying to escape. See.....this is where my "old school" approach is getting phased out of the game. First, i gotta listen to "why don't we pass more" Then I gotta listen to If we were in the gun we'd pass more Then, when my guys block downfield, we're actually RUNNING the ball Now, b/c we shoulder block I'm missing out on the holding to? Man...based on all this info I guess I need to start yelling more nonsense from the sideline LOL. yeah, but the issue I have is that if it IS a pass play then yeah; the DL is trying to escape to his gap side. BUT if it is a run play and we teach our DL to squeeze their gaps..... then the DL has to suffer |
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Jan 19, 2021 10:28:36 GMT -6
Post by s73 on Jan 19, 2021 10:28:36 GMT -6
See.....this is where my "old school" approach is getting phased out of the game. First, i gotta listen to "why don't we pass more" Then I gotta listen to If we were in the gun we'd pass more Then, when my guys block downfield, we're actually RUNNING the ball Now, b/c we shoulder block I'm missing out on the holding to? Man...based on all this info I guess I need to start yelling more nonsense from the sideline LOL. yeah, but the issue I have is that if it IS a pass play then yeah; the DL is trying to escape to his gap side. BUT if it is a run play and we teach our DL to squeeze their gaps..... then the DL has to suffer I know coach, I'm w/ you. I'm bustin' chops on all the guys that are teaching holding. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 19, 2021 10:41:53 GMT -6
yeah, but the issue I have is that if it IS a pass play then yeah; the DL is trying to escape to his gap side. BUT if it is a run play and we teach our DL to squeeze their gaps..... then the DL has to suffer I know coach, I'm w/ you. I'm bustin' chops on all the guys that are teaching holding.
I get a little teary-eyed when I watch one of the fat kids grab that breast plate and steer that defender all over the field while he yells for a holding call. Proud OL coach...  |
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Post by wingtol on Jan 19, 2021 11:10:45 GMT -6
Coaches knowingly send OL downfield on RPO's. Coaches intentionally take delay of game penalties, many other examples of intentionally breaking the rules. Stealing your opponents play-call signals is another one that can be considered a grey area. While I agree that some of the scenarios in this thread are "bush league", I'm not sure who ultimately gets to decide when breaking the rules is considered "good coaching" versus when it's considered "bush league". What about finding a loophole in the rules? Is it unethical to exploit that loophole? Seems like whenever Belichick does it, he's praised as a genius, but sometimes others are called cheaters. How is a delay of game penalty breaking the rules? |
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Ethics
Jan 19, 2021 11:16:53 GMT -6
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Post by morris on Jan 19, 2021 11:16:53 GMT -6
1 and 2 are cheating.
The other two I wouldn’t call cheating. I’m not sure where that line is between gamesmanship, accepted behavior and bush league for some stuff.
Simulating the snap. Teams do it and are taught to do it.
Teams running up to the LOS and snapping it fast to get a rolling start.
Taking a PI to prevent a TD or long gain.
Pulling a Harbaugh and holding to take a safety and run out the clock.
Sending 3 guys in but making it look like 4 guys are coming out to do the old hideout play.
There are a number of things that are cheating but accepted. Committing a penalty on purpose. There are a number of things that by rule are not cheating but people have a problem with (yelling fumble). Then there is the stuff that 99% of us think is bush league unethical like examples 1 and 2. I’m not sure where the line is for all of that and how it is decided the line has been crossed.
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Jan 19, 2021 11:21:34 GMT -6
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Post by morris on Jan 19, 2021 11:21:34 GMT -6
Coaches knowingly send OL downfield on RPO's. Coaches intentionally take delay of game penalties, many other examples of intentionally breaking the rules. Stealing your opponents play-call signals is another one that can be considered a grey area. While I agree that some of the scenarios in this thread are "bush league", I'm not sure who ultimately gets to decide when breaking the rules is considered "good coaching" versus when it's considered "bush league". What about finding a loophole in the rules? Is it unethical to exploit that loophole? Seems like whenever Belichick does it, he's praised as a genius, but sometimes others are called cheaters. How is a delay of game penalty breaking the rules? I think it has to do with using the rule in a way it isn’t intended to gain an advantage. There was a strange way the rule worked in the NFL that allowed you to run more clock off I believe. This is one of those things where is knowingly breaking the rules ok. Not many if any coaches would see taking a delay of game penalty as Bush league. It’s an accepted thing just like intentional DPI. |
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Jan 19, 2021 11:31:07 GMT -6
Post by fantom on Jan 19, 2021 11:31:07 GMT -6
Coaches knowingly send OL downfield on RPO's. Coaches intentionally take delay of game penalties, many other examples of intentionally breaking the rules. Stealing your opponents play-call signals is another one that can be considered a grey area.
While I agree that some of the scenarios in this thread are "bush league", I'm not sure who ultimately gets to decide when breaking the rules is considered "good coaching" versus when it's considered "bush league". What about finding a loophole in the rules? Is it unethical to exploit that loophole? Seems like whenever Belichick does it, he's praised as a genius, but sometimes others are called cheaters.
Maybe it's just me but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We played a team and wrecked them every year because their signals were the same year after year. After the second year the OC said to our DC, "Man, it was like you were in the huddle with us" and he replied, "We were. You should change your signals." The next year they had a benchwarmer standing next to the OC doing his own signals that didn't even come close to resembling any of their signals (at one point he had his hands in his pits and was flapping his elbows like a chicken, scratching at the grass with his foot). They eventually gave up and just counted us as a loss. If a team doesn't take pains, that's their problem.
I agree. We did the same thing once, for the same reason. The team used ridiculously simple hand signals (Example: A broom motion meant "Sweep") and didn't change them over the years. If they're going to give us something why shouldn't we take it? If they'd just shouted the play call in to the huddle, should we have told our kids not to listen? We used hand signals to send in our defense, a numbers system with wristbands. We changed them every week. It was as simple as cutting and pasting so that the numbers changed. If somebody can't do something that simple they get what they get. |
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Post by fantom on Jan 19, 2021 11:47:37 GMT -6
How is a delay of game penalty breaking the rules? I think it has to do with using the rule in a way it isn’t intended to gain an advantage. There was a strange way the rule worked in the NFL that allowed you to run more clock off I believe. This is one of those things where is knowingly breaking rules ok. Not many if any coaches would see taking a delay of game penalty as Bush league. It’s an accepted thing just like intentional DPI. There's a difference between knowingly breaking the rules while trying to get away with it and conceding a penalty. We do teach our DB's to commit DPI if they're clearly beaten ("If you go down, he goes down"). Similarly, I coached our OL to grab the defender if they'd whiffed in drop-back pass pro. We weren't trying to get away with it, we were just willing to concede the penalty to avoid getting our QB hit by a free runner. The same with delay penalties. 4th and short and we want to draw the D off-sides (Is that unethical?). If they don't jump, if time is no factor, why waste a time-out? Get back in the huddle and take the delay. Same with a situation where there's personnel confusion on a punt team. We're kicking anyway so who cares about the five yards? To me, those situations are a lot different than trying to break the rules without being penalized. |
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Jan 19, 2021 12:04:12 GMT -6
Post by Coach.A on Jan 19, 2021 12:04:12 GMT -6
How is a delay of game penalty breaking the rules? I think it has to do with using the rule in a way it isn’t intended to gain an advantage. There was a strange way the rule worked in the NFL that allowed you to run more clock off I believe. This is one of those things where is knowingly breaking the rules ok. Not many if any coaches would see taking a delay of game penalty as Bush league. It’s an accepted thing just like intentional DPI. I guess "loophole" might be better word to use. Intentionally committing delay of game and a false start penalty to gain an advantage. www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/mike-vrabel-uses-bill-belichicks-own-nfl-rulebook-loophole-against-him-in-titans-win-over-patriots/#:~:text=In%20Saturday's%20game%2C%20the%20Titans,clock%20down%20to%205%3A52 |
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Post by carookie on Jan 19, 2021 12:14:48 GMT -6
Coaches knowingly send OL downfield on RPO's. Coaches intentionally take delay of game penalties, many other examples of intentionally breaking the rules. Stealing your opponents play-call signals is another one that can be considered a grey area. While I agree that some of the scenarios in this thread are "bush league", I'm not sure who ultimately gets to decide when breaking the rules is considered "good coaching" versus when it's considered "bush league". What about finding a loophole in the rules? Is it unethical to exploit that loophole? Seems like whenever Belichick does it, he's praised as a genius, but sometimes others are called cheaters. Ive always felt doing something that is in plain sight on the field, for example the holding, intentional delay of game, etc, is gamesmanship. Doing something secretive, listening in to your opponents headset sneaking in an ineligible player, etc, is unethical cheating. |
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Post by tog on Jan 19, 2021 12:25:42 GMT -6
Maybe it's just me but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We played a team and wrecked them every year because their signals were the same year after year. After the second year the OC said to our DC, "Man, it was like you were in the huddle with us" and he replied, "We were. You should change your signals." The next year they had a benchwarmer standing next to the OC doing his own signals that didn't even come close to resembling any of their signals (at one point he had his hands in his pits and was flapping his elbows like a chicken, scratching at the grass with his foot). They eventually gave up and just counted us as a loss. If a team doesn't take pains, that's their problem.
I agree. We did the same thing once, for the same reason. The team used ridiculously simple hand signals (Example: A broom motion meant "Sweep") and didn't change them over the years. If they're going to give us something why shouldn't we take it? If they'd just shouted the play call in to the huddle, should we have told our kids not to listen? We used hand signals to send in our defense, a numbers system with wristbands. We changed them every week. It was as simple as cutting and pasting so that the numbers changed. If somebody can't do something that simple they get what they get. this reminded me of a time in spring ball in college where our young qb in a scrimmage yelled out "check draw" "check draw" all 5 of us ol looked back at him like----ummmkay rb looked at him like-----ummm nnnaawawwwwww qb got smashed we all laughed and called him things Maybe it's just me but I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We played a team and wrecked them every year because their signals were the same year after year. After the second year the OC said to our DC, "Man, it was like you were in the huddle with us" and he replied, "We were. You should change your signals." The next year they had a benchwarmer standing next to the OC doing his own signals that didn't even come close to resembling any of their signals (at one point he had his hands in his pits and was flapping his elbows like a chicken, scratching at the grass with his foot). They eventually gave up and just counted us as a loss. If a team doesn't take pains, that's their problem.
I agree. We did the same thing once, for the same reason. The team used ridiculously simple hand signals (Example: A broom motion meant "Sweep") and didn't change them over the years. If they're going to give us something why shouldn't we take it? If they'd just shouted the play call in to the huddle, should we have told our kids not to listen? We used hand signals to send in our defense, a numbers system with wristbands. We changed them every week. It was as simple as cutting and pasting so that the numbers changed. If somebody can't do something that simple they get what they get. |
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Jan 19, 2021 13:14:08 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Jan 19, 2021 13:14:08 GMT -6
Simulating the snap. Teams do it and are taught to do it. Any time you don't snap on first sound, what are you doing? |
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Post by wingtol on Jan 19, 2021 14:39:26 GMT -6
I'm looking at from a HS stand point. Knowing and using the rules like that however would be smart coaching in my book. Some of the other stuff like cheating to cheat and get away with it now that's a load of crap. Like sending 6 guys out or 12 guys on the field for an advantage are. |
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Jan 19, 2021 15:44:47 GMT -6
Post by stilltryin on Jan 19, 2021 15:44:47 GMT -6
As i was typing out my reply i just remembered a funny story from a few years back, we were a really heavy running team and we had a deadly reverse play off of our toss sweep, well like always i called it after running regular sweep a few times. i call the reverse it goes for an 80 something yard touchdown and the ref on our sideline was pissed at me, he said it was deceitful. i was shocked and then just started chuckling. I would take this as a compliment, and wonder if the ref might even have meant it that way. With the exception of quarterback sneak, or straight dive, just about everything we do on offense is "deceitful" in one way or another. That's because, almost by definition, we're trying to "deceive" the defense. It's there job to scope it out and stop it. But in my mind, it's a bug leap from deceitful to unethical ... or just plain cheating, as in most of the original poster's examples. |
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Jan 19, 2021 16:03:15 GMT -6
Post by coachscdub on Jan 19, 2021 16:03:15 GMT -6
As i was typing out my reply i just remembered a funny story from a few years back, we were a really heavy running team and we had a deadly reverse play off of our toss sweep, well like always i called it after running regular sweep a few times. i call the reverse it goes for an 80 something yard touchdown and the ref on our sideline was pissed at me, he said it was deceitful. i was shocked and then just started chuckling. I would take this as a compliment, and wonder if the ref might even have meant it that way. With the exception of quarterback sneak, or straight dive, just about everything we do on offense is "deceitful" in one way or another. That's because, almost by definition, we're trying to "deceive" the defense. It's there job to scope it out and stop it. But in my mind, it's a bug leap from deceitful to unethical ... or just plain cheating, as in most of the original poster's examples. Based on his tone and expression it really seemed as if he was truly upset, which now just makes it even funnier |
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Jan 19, 2021 16:10:01 GMT -6
Post by stilltryin on Jan 19, 2021 16:10:01 GMT -6
Congratulations, by the way, to the original poster. This was one of the site's more interesting threads in the last few weeks, and elicited some thoughtful responses.
We could probably spend days deciding what goes in the "unethical" basket, as opposed to "gamesmanship," "smart coaching," or "outright cheating" ... or even trying to define what separates those terms, or where there might be overlap.
All of which would be more fun than sitting here wondering when the hell I'm going to get an appointment to get my covid vaccine shot.
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Post by morris on Jan 20, 2021 5:40:16 GMT -6
We have a play where the TE acts like he fell down. Gets up and runs a pass route. It basically takes the place of a slam release. We got threatened by the official to flag it and the opponent was pretty upset by it.
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Ethics
Jan 20, 2021 9:01:39 GMT -6
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Post by carookie on Jan 20, 2021 9:01:39 GMT -6
We have a play where the TE acts like he fell down. Gets up and runs a pass route. It basically takes the place of a slam release. We got threatened by the official to flag it and the opponent was pretty upset by it. Under what rule would he flag it? |
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Jan 20, 2021 9:41:35 GMT -6
Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 20, 2021 9:41:35 GMT -6
I had a ref tell me I couldn't shift on a punt unless I did it every time... I asked why.... he said because I was trying to deceive the defense... lol... I said well dang yall are gonna throw a lot of flags on us bc we try to do that every play...
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Jan 20, 2021 9:58:10 GMT -6
Post by coachwoodall on Jan 20, 2021 9:58:10 GMT -6
This might best be rules section, but would/could any of these actions fall within the Fed rule book section 9.9?
In other words be a 'travesty' of the game.
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Post by veerman on Jan 20, 2021 10:14:48 GMT -6
Had a team trying to score the game winning TD with no timeouts and less that 1 min in the game have someone fake an injury everytime they got tackled in bounds so the clock would stop. We got lucky and picked them off to win the game, but I thought it was a great strategy using the rules in place. I wasn't happy at the time, but see the logic.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 20, 2021 11:44:58 GMT -6
Had a team trying to score the game winning TD with no timeouts and less that 1 min in the game have someone fake an injury everytime they got tackled in bounds so the clock would stop. We got lucky and picked them off to win the game, but I thought it was a great strategy using the rules in place. I wasn't happy at the time, but see the logic. wonder who that was  |
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Post by veerman on Jan 20, 2021 13:11:04 GMT -6
I have no problems with people knowing how to use the rules of the game to their advantage. I remember people talking about how smart the Titan's coach was last year I think when he used a rule to his advantage to beat the Patriots, and everyone said that it was a Bill Belichick type move (who most consider one of the greats), and how it was "Great" coaching...I think knowing how to use things to your advantage is a coaching edge that is a difference maker in coaches. Just don't see how some can say this is "unethical" while this is "OK". Teaching someone to "hold" and teaching players to block at the thighs knowing the defender is going knock them down toward their knees is the same thing. It gives you and advantage when it comes to success on the field.
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Ethics
Jan 20, 2021 15:04:16 GMT -6
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Post by morris on Jan 20, 2021 15:04:16 GMT -6
We have a play where the TE acts like he fell down. Gets up and runs a pass route. It basically takes the place of a slam release. We got threatened by the official to flag it and the opponent was pretty upset by it. Under what rule would he flag it? There is the rule about deceit. It’s the same one that makes the “wrong ball” play illegal. He try to say that my TE had given himself up so he wasn’t part of the play anymore. It’s a bunch of crap but if they throw it they aren’t picking it up. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2021 18:59:43 GMT -6
I look at it this way:
Is it a safety issue?
If so, it’s clearly unethical. Examples would be playing an ineligible/uncleared player, violating concussion/heat/lightning protocols, putting a “bounty” on injuring an opposing player, etc. There is no place for that stuff in the game.
If not, it’s mostly gamesmanship, which is how I view most of the examples in this thread. It’s up to the officials to call the game properly and penalize the teams who try bush league BS. That’s why we have them.
If you’re not (safely) pushing the limits of what’s ethical and legal, are you really trying to win?
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Jan 20, 2021 20:35:24 GMT -6
Post by coachwoodall on Jan 20, 2021 20:35:24 GMT -6
I look at it this way: Is it a safety issue? If so, it’s clearly unethical. Examples would be playing an ineligible/uncleared player, violating concussion/heat/lightning protocols, putting a “bounty” on injuring an opposing player, etc. There is no place for that stuff in the game. If not, it’s mostly gamesmanship, which is how I view most of the examples in this thread. It’s up to the officials to call the game properly and penalize the teams who try bush league BS. That’s why we have them. If you’re not (safely) pushing the limits of what’s ethical and legal, are you really trying to win? I would think that you are using the concept of eliminating the extremes to justify the median. Statically that makes numbers work but doesn't parley into human interaction. |
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Jan 20, 2021 21:09:50 GMT -6
Post by coachwoodall on Jan 20, 2021 21:09:50 GMT -6
Okay, to put into play the rationale of blockandtackle and try to create some agreed upon perimeters, I'll throw this out. Should/Can/Do we simply place the rules into 2 broad categories? Construct 1: Any rule that is put into place to protect/prevent a player from unnecessary injury/harm. Construct 2: Any rule that is put into place to promote/prohibit any 'unfair' play. Construct 1 is the realm, I would say, almost all of us agree on. IE we could possibly debate the horse collar penalty, but couldn't debate the spearing penalty. These are rules/penalties that evolve out of things that were detrimental to the game or the health of players. Construct 2 are the ones, we on all extremes of the discussion are dealing with: penalties that don't create serious distractions from the game, but are for lack of a better term are 'unfair'. Such as: -taking a delay of game penalty -trying to simulate the snap count on defense -sneaking in the WR as an OL to run a pass route These are all rules in fractions. Whether or not coaching a kid to execute an illegal chop by teaching them to aim for the thigh board but finish on the shins, or coaching a WR to line up at OT and then run a Go route, or telling your holder on PAT to always take a delay penalty if you don't have 11 men on the field; all are penalties. Ethics come into play are to HOW you follow/view/apply the accepted penalties. I doubt anyone would say that willingly taking a delay of game penalty infraction would be considered bush league. Regardless of the situation in a football game the offending team has to suffer the consequences. Now it might have the effect of an uncharged time out, it may put the offending team in a better position to drop a 'coffin corner' punt, etc...... the team is still in terms of the game penalized from the game's stated objective -- get to the goal line. I guess what I'm trying to get to is whether or not the particular action is: -harmful/injurious -a willful attempt to cheat IE play an illegible player -take your lumps on a penalty and then play the game from that point |
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