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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 11:36:37 GMT -6
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Coach.A likes this
Post by kcbazooka on Jan 18, 2021 11:36:37 GMT -6
Ethics in coaching can be a tricky thing. I’m interested in your comments on four scenarios that I’ve experienced in my coaching career.
1. A coach calling timeout and inserting a skill player for a lineman. Then calling a pass play and sending out six receivers. If it was one time maybe it could have been a mistake - but it was done twice in a playoff game with completions each time. And the coach is hall-of-famer. Is knowingly breaking the rules unethical or is it just being competitive?
2. Similar scenario. I saw a junior coach always send in a 12th defender after the other team had scored. His rationale was that after a score there were a lot of things happening and the referees would often miss the infraction. However, obviously his own players knew they were doing something illegal.
3. Knew a defense that at times in the game would yell “fumble” after the snap. Often the offensive line would turn around and look for the ball. Unethical or just tricky coaching.
4. Last one, saw a team that taught their defenders - when the opponents broke away on a big play, to get in front of a blocker and stop thereby getting a clipping call. Is it any different than getting a charge call in basketball? Genius or unethical?
There are several other instances that to me at least have to be unethical. Playing/practicing players that are ineligible. In Missouri we had a top program have to cancel their season when they had an ineligible player use a different jersey to play in the game. That one is easy - and the coach rightfully got fired. But the not so easy ones listed above - what do you think?
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Post by Down 'n Out on Jan 18, 2021 11:44:49 GMT -6
All unethical imo. Not things I'd teach
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 18, 2021 12:37:44 GMT -6
To me 1 and 2 are clearly unethical. 3 and 4 are not something I would coach, but seem to be more in the gray area to me. Not something I would lose my cool about if it happened to me.
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 13:17:28 GMT -6
Post by wolverine55 on Jan 18, 2021 13:17:28 GMT -6
I vote all unethical...but I sort of appreciate the cleverness of 3 and 4. I've never even heard of those techniques, if they can be called that.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 18, 2021 13:52:34 GMT -6
Yes, I would call those unethical situations. But, I can't be the guy in the glass house as I personally teach things that would be considered unethical.
Our OL holds better than anyone else in the division because we rep doing it and not getting caught. An official basically has to be on top of our OL to coach them holding. When using hands, they grab that breast plate tight, bury their facemask in the numbers and drive.
I teach the DBs to tackle a WR and take the PI call if they're burned vertically. It's blatant, it's obvious and everyone knows we're teaching them to cheat in those situations. I feel a tinge of guilt the rare times it happens but I'll take the guilt over a score.
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Post by dubber on Jan 18, 2021 14:08:53 GMT -6
If you are practicing what to do on break away runs, maybe you’re focused on the wrong things?
All of it is Bush league
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 18, 2021 14:34:25 GMT -6
If you are practicing what to do on break away runs, maybe you’re focused on the wrong things? All of it is Bush league I agree it's all Bush league and bad football. I think that's why I wouldn't get too upset being on the receiving end of #3 or #4, I would take solace in the fact that we were probably in the midst of pummeling that team. Confession time, back in my HS playing days I somewhat committed #4. I was an OL, and unathletic by OL standards. We threw a pick and it was getting run back for a TD. I had no chance of taking an angle to get to this DB but I was giving it an honest effort. I saw this mean SOB they had playing LB running downfield and I could tell we were going to cross paths. I decided I wouldn't change my path or anything and when this guy caught up to me if he hit me in the back so be it. Sure enough he caught up to me, knocked the crap out of me in the back, and the refs didn't flag it. They still scored and all I got to show for it was a face full of turf and sorrow. |
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 14:45:58 GMT -6
Post by carookie on Jan 18, 2021 14:45:58 GMT -6
1 & 2 are unethical and intentionally breaking the rules. And unlike teaching a blocker to latch on to the chest plate when blocking (which is technically holding) this is trying to intentionally cheat behind the refs back and sneak something past them. I actually had a HC plan on doing your #1 scenario for a playoff game, I pointed out it was against the rules but left it at that.
3 Is bush league, but not all that bad. I've had opponents do the 'hey ref wrong football' trick, I think thats worse because it predicates that no play is happening when one is. And can encourage opposing players to tackle a kid when a play isnt taking place (to stop such shenanigans).
4 is not bad at all, like cited similar to taking a charge. Its directly in front of the refs, not sneaking around; but as has been written if you are spending your time teaching it then you're probably being inefficient. Though I had a buddy in HS use this trick to save us from giving up a TD
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 16:00:51 GMT -6
Post by coachscdub on Jan 18, 2021 16:00:51 GMT -6
i wouldnt say 3 is unethical. I mean is it unethical when we're on offense and running a play action pass that i yell out "RUN"? i wouldn't say it is, but i can definitely see why some might not love it.
i would say 4 is in a real grey area, i'd say i don't like it because it reminds me of flopping in soccer. I think where i would draw the line is if a kid came up with that on his own, than that's a 'savy' play from that kid. but if a coach was to instruct that then it's a bit like come on man.
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Post by coachscdub on Jan 18, 2021 16:03:24 GMT -6
As i was typing out my reply i just remembered a funny story from a few years back, we were a really heavy running team and we had a deadly reverse play off of our toss sweep, well like always i called it after running regular sweep a few times. i call the reverse it goes for an 80 something yard touchdown and the ref on our sideline was pissed at me, he said it was deceitful. i was shocked and then just started chuckling.
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 17:27:32 GMT -6
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Post by kcbazooka on Jan 18, 2021 17:27:32 GMT -6
I’ve also seen teams while on offense had their sideline yell REVERSE when their team was running fake reverse. I assume this is bush league.
I think it’s interesting to say the clipping call is savvy if the kid does it , but not ok if the coach instructs it. Why wouldn’t the same apply to the OL coach that is teaching holding?
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 17:31:52 GMT -6
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Post by conceptsalignments on Jan 18, 2021 17:31:52 GMT -6
As i was typing out my reply i just remembered a funny story from a few years back, we were a really heavy running team and we had a deadly reverse play off of our toss sweep, well like always i called it after running regular sweep a few times. i call the reverse it goes for an 80 something yard touchdown and the ref on our sideline was pissed at me, he said it was deceitful. i was shocked and then just started chuckling. LMFAO |
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 17:43:39 GMT -6
s73 likes this
Post by coachscdub on Jan 18, 2021 17:43:39 GMT -6
I’ve also seen teams while on offense had their sideline yell REVERSE when their team was running fake reverse. I assume this is bush league. I think it’s interesting to say the clipping call is savvy if the kid does it , but not ok if the coach instructs it. Why wouldn’t the same apply to the OL coach that is teaching holding? Im using the term savvy very loosely, i suppose in my logic if a kid comes up with that idea he's thinking beyond the scope of a normal kid and is doing something that he has picked up on. But if a coach instructs him to do it then that it isnt a savvy play it's just a douche move for lack of a better term. As for the OL thing, i think every OL coach teaches holding to some degree. I just think it's part of the position group, the "hey hands in tight is ok, but hands out wide we're gonna get a flag" is that teaching holding or is that teaching the kid to use his hands a certain way. As for the Reverse thing i think yelling things from the sideline isnt that bad honestly because anyone in the stands could do the same thing. Im not sure that really makes it ok but i would say that it is alot different from the other things listed in the OP. |
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Post by kcbazooka on Jan 18, 2021 18:07:03 GMT -6
just checking - so it is ethical to teach holding? a slippery slope, lol
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 18:26:37 GMT -6
Post by bobgoodman on Jan 18, 2021 18:26:37 GMT -6
3. Knew a defense that at times in the game would yell “fumble” after the snap. Often the offensive line would turn around and look for the ball. Unethical or just tricky coaching. If the offense can use ball misdirection, why shouldn't the defense? I know of plays on which you fake trying to recover a fumble, and I don't see why that's any worse than pretending to carry, receive, or pass the ball, so why shouldn't the defense get in on that game too? |
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Post by carookie on Jan 18, 2021 18:48:24 GMT -6
I was thinking about this one recently: Team A punts the ball, a coach for Team A is on the sideline across from the return man and starts yelling out "PETER"! Players for Team A echo the call.
Could possibly lead to the returner letting the ball bounce and gaining extra yardage for Team A's punt?
Unethical?
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Post by Coach.A on Jan 18, 2021 21:11:01 GMT -6
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Post by fantom on Jan 18, 2021 21:11:24 GMT -6
I was thinking about this one recently: Team A punts the ball, a coach for Team A is on the sideline across from the return man and starts yelling out "PETER"! Players for Team A echo the call. Could possibly lead to the returner letting the ball bounce and gaining extra yardage for Team A's punt? Unethical? I'm not sure about unethical but if the coach does it he definitely picks up some douche points. |
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Post by coachkeating33 on Jan 18, 2021 21:14:09 GMT -6
All unethical imo. Not things I'd teach agree---teaching the kids to cheat basically---just play football |
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Post by s73 on Jan 18, 2021 22:15:01 GMT -6
Mostly unethical but furthermore, just kinda stupid IMO.
I's much rather spend time coaching my guys up in the first place to try and avoid such nonsense.
ON another note, I don't see yelling things from the sideline as a big issue. Guys are trying to work the refs and lobby for calls all the time. I don't have much issue with it.
I've yelled something before to try and mislead, douchy, yeah I guess but we're all a little douchy on game days at times aren't we?
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 22:18:20 GMT -6
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Post by canesfan on Jan 18, 2021 22:18:20 GMT -6
Unethical and lame.
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 22:18:42 GMT -6
s73 likes this
Post by fantom on Jan 18, 2021 22:18:42 GMT -6
Mostly unethical but furthermore, just kinda stupid IMO. I's much rather spend time coaching my guys up in the first place to try and avoid such nonsense. ON another note, I don't see yelling things from the sideline as a big issue. Guys are trying to work the refs and lobby for calls all the time. I don't have much issue with it. I've yelled something before to try and mislead, douchy, yeah I guess but we're all a little douchy on game days at times aren't we? Depends on what it is. Somehow a grown man yelling something to confuse a 16 year old kid trying to catch a punt seems douchier than most to me. |
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 22:32:52 GMT -6
Post by s73 on Jan 18, 2021 22:32:52 GMT -6
Mostly unethical but furthermore, just kinda stupid IMO. I's much rather spend time coaching my guys up in the first place to try and avoid such nonsense. ON another note, I don't see yelling things from the sideline as a big issue. Guys are trying to work the refs and lobby for calls all the time. I don't have much issue with it. I've yelled something before to try and mislead, douchy, yeah I guess but we're all a little douchy on game days at times aren't we? Depends on what it is. Somehow a grown man yelling something to confuse a 16 year old kid trying to catch a punt seems douchier than most to me. I was referring more to the reverse when it's a fake thing. I don't really think that's all that bad. |
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Ethics
Jan 18, 2021 23:17:47 GMT -6
Post by fantom on Jan 18, 2021 23:17:47 GMT -6
Depends on what it is. Somehow a grown man yelling something to confuse a 16 year old kid trying to catch a punt seems douchier than most to me. I was referring more to the reverse when it's a fake thing. I don't really think that's all that bad. The reverse? I don't either. |
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Post by wingtol on Jan 19, 2021 8:00:10 GMT -6
I’ve also seen teams while on offense had their sideline yell REVERSE when their team was running fake reverse. I assume this is bush league. I think it’s interesting to say the clipping call is savvy if the kid does it , but not ok if the coach instructs it. Why wouldn’t the same apply to the OL coach that is teaching holding? Im using the term savvy very loosely, i suppose in my logic if a kid comes up with that idea he's thinking beyond the scope of a normal kid and is doing something that he has picked up on. But if a coach instructs him to do it then that it isnt a savvy play it's just a douche move for lack of a better term. As for the OL thing, i think every OL coach teaches holding to some degree. I just think it's part of the position group, the "hey hands in tight is ok, but hands out wide we're gonna get a flag" is that teaching holding or is that teaching the kid to use his hands a certain way. As for the Reverse thing i think yelling things from the sideline isnt that bad honestly because anyone in the stands could do the same thing. Im not sure that really makes it ok but i would say that it is alot different from the other things listed in the OP. You gotta grab something when blocking right? I've always taught that grab the breastplate of the shoulder pads. Keep your hands tight. Most people would also agree that it's more with your feet and reaching where you get called for holding. |
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Ethics
Jan 19, 2021 8:03:40 GMT -6
s73 likes this
Post by coachwoodall on Jan 19, 2021 8:03:40 GMT -6
I’ve also seen teams while on offense had their sideline yell REVERSE when their team was running fake reverse. I assume this is bush league. I think it’s interesting to say the clipping call is savvy if the kid does it , but not ok if the coach instructs it. Why wouldn’t the same apply to the OL coach that is teaching holding? or yell SCREEN on fake screen and go |
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Post by coachwoodall on Jan 19, 2021 8:05:32 GMT -6
Im using the term savvy very loosely, i suppose in my logic if a kid comes up with that idea he's thinking beyond the scope of a normal kid and is doing something that he has picked up on. But if a coach instructs him to do it then that it isnt a savvy play it's just a douche move for lack of a better term. As for the OL thing, i think every OL coach teaches holding to some degree. I just think it's part of the position group, the "hey hands in tight is ok, but hands out wide we're gonna get a flag" is that teaching holding or is that teaching the kid to use his hands a certain way. As for the Reverse thing i think yelling things from the sideline isnt that bad honestly because anyone in the stands could do the same thing. Im not sure that really makes it ok but i would say that it is alot different from the other things listed in the OP. You gotta grab something when blocking right? I've always taught that grab the breastplate of the shoulder pads. Keep your hands tight. Most people would also agree that it's more with your feet and reaching where you get called for holding. We've basically been told by referees that they know the OL is holding every play, but the defender has to 'show' that he is trying to escape. |
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Post by Coach.A on Jan 19, 2021 8:33:03 GMT -6
Coaches knowingly send OL downfield on RPO's. Coaches intentionally take delay of game penalties, many other examples of intentionally breaking the rules. Stealing your opponents play-call signals is another one that can be considered a grey area.
While I agree that some of the scenarios in this thread are "bush league", I'm not sure who ultimately gets to decide when breaking the rules is considered "good coaching" versus when it's considered "bush league".
What about finding a loophole in the rules? Is it unethical to exploit that loophole? Seems like whenever Belichick does it, he's praised as a genius, but sometimes others are called cheaters.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 19, 2021 9:01:33 GMT -6
I'm all against cheating... but most of these are gamesmanship type things... anyone that says these are cheating and immoral but teach holding ... or cut blocking as aim for thigh and slide down, etc.... are being hypocritical... you cant make pushing the envelope ok in one area but immoral in another area IMHO
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Post by Down 'n Out on Jan 19, 2021 9:13:03 GMT -6
Coaches intentionally take delay of game penalties I dont see a problem with that myself. Like you said, its a question that changes from person to person. A program I played against and coached against will run trick/razzle dazzle plays if you put your 2nd string defense in, they will blitz the hell out of your 2nd string offense too. The last time we played them I was furious and was ready to go tell their HC exactly what I thought of his action (he build like a Ox, he would kill me lol). Im walking up to him and he says "hey great competitive game coach. Man y'all are pretty good. Would you guys come pray with us?". What I thought of as bush league and taking advantage of our 2nd stringers was competing and never quitting to him. Its all about perspective. I coached with a guy (he was our OC) who would yell to the WR on our sideline to "Go block number __" when he called a Go route. It was bush league and manipulative imo but he didn't mean anything dirty by it. |
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