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Post by wildcat on Jul 15, 2007 11:32:30 GMT -6
Fellas - I know we have looked at this issue in the past from other angles, but I would like to bring it up again and get some thoughts. We have a kid in our program who is a phenomenal athlete. Kid is about 6-5, can jump through the gym, run all day, and has a nice set of hands. Probably wouldn't be a stretch to say that he could be the best overall athlete in the conference. Problem is, he has a tremendous chip on his shoulder. Kid refuses to lift with the team and has not attended any summer functions at all. He is equally stubborn with the head basketball coach. Kid is also not really smart (14 on his ACT) and thinks that he is going to be playing D-I basketball next year.  Anyway, this kid is a difference maker...kind of kid who can turn in at least 1-2 huge, breathtaking plays a game and is good enough right now to start at WR and FS for us. Last year, he really clashed with the OC. Our team runs the Wing T and he complained incessently about not getting the ball thrown to him enough. Now, this year, we will probably throw the ball a little bit more than we did last year (about 10 attempts a game last year), but this kid doesn't know the offense, doesn't run great routes, and is clearly out for himself and doesn't care about the success of the team. With that being said, he is the kind of athlete who can make the difference between going to the playoffs and getting the basketballs out early. How do you guys handle kids like this? |
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 15, 2007 11:45:17 GMT -6
Sit down and talk 1-on-1 with him? Have you had a chance to meet you yet wildcat? Maybe you and the HC need to visit with him. I am not saying to beg gim to do anything, but just make sure he knows where you are coming from.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 15, 2007 12:03:09 GMT -6
I agree with groundchuck- sit down and talk with the kid. I'd be very clear on what was expected of him, at least during the season.
In the past, I have some very good athletes with the same type of attitude. It's tough to deal with them because you know they can win some ball games for you. But, two of these kids were flat-out cancerous; the crappy attitude spread through the team like mono at an 8th grade spin-the-bottle party.
The kids didn't like that these kids didn't put in the time and were still starting for us. As a coaching staff we looked like hypocrites talking about hard work and dedication all year and still playing the kids that hadn't done anything, in-season or off.
If you guys can hold the team together with these kinds of kids, then great; I'd do it and get the ball to him as much as I could. If the kids getting upset over it, I'd think about putting the kid down on the depth chart and making him earn his spot.
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Post by wildcat on Jul 15, 2007 12:20:26 GMT -6
I The kids didn't like that these kids didn't put in the time and were still starting for us. As a coaching staff we looked like hypocrites talking about hard work and dedication all year and still playing the kids that hadn't done anything, in-season or off. If you guys can hold the team together with these kinds of kids, then great; I'd do it and get the ball to him as much as I could. If the kids getting upset over it, I'd think about putting the kid down on the depth chart and making him earn his spot. The funny thing is that MOST of the varsity players want him to play because they know that he is a difference maker and can really help us out. So, I guess what I am trying to say is that if the kids want him and don't seem to have a problem with all of the stuff he missed this summer, should we (the coaches) have a problem with it? I know we all talk about the rewards of hard work to the kids, but, in the real world, hard work is really not what is rewarded. What is rewarded is performance and this kid will definately perform. |
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Post by wildcat on Jul 15, 2007 12:24:49 GMT -6
Sit down and talk 1-on-1 with him? Have you had a chance to meet you yet wildcat? Maybe you and the HC need to visit with him. I am not saying to beg gim to do anything, but just make sure he knows where you are coming from. This kid has had sit-downs with everyone...typically, the "right" things are said in the conversations, but, when the rubber meets the road, he reverts back to his original attitude. Like I said, this kid is NOT a team player in any sense of the word. He doesn't try to hide the fact that the reason he plays sports is because their is something in it for him. With that being said, he is athletic enough to really contribute. The funny thing is, with a 14 on his ACT and a 1.8 GPA, I don't think Bruce Webber or any other D-! basketball coaches are going to be calling... |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 15, 2007 12:28:53 GMT -6
are you willing to mortgage your programs internal stability, integrity and future on the athletic potential of one kid?
No person above the team, no team above the program.
Is this a championship blueprint, or is a 6 or 7 win for this season blueprint?
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 15, 2007 13:09:19 GMT -6
Once again, OVER-communicate with him as you go over what you can provide for him (opportunity for improvement and success) and what you expect from him in return. So he's not intrinsically motivated to put the team first. As long as he's not dragging the team down through attitude and behavior try and help the KID out. Now if he does violate the conditions of being a member of the team - he has now chosen to leave the program. Tell him what you expect, and then inspect it!
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Post by wildcat on Jul 15, 2007 13:21:08 GMT -6
Also ask yourself this: if this kid gets through HS with this behavior...what is he learning and how will those lessons affect him if he plays in college? You suppose any college coach is going to put up with it? How about when he gets a job? This is a very good point. Plenty of college coaches WILL put up with it if he is good enough, but this kid probably won't play in college because of his poor academic record. |
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 15, 2007 13:36:01 GMT -6
I believe the applicable quote is "Everything you see on the field is either coached, or it is allowed; which one is it for you?" If the kid is a jerk then by all means get rid of him, but it he's an immature, lazy, selfish teenager (in other words, TYPICAL!) then why not try and work with the kid to help him mature - for college and for life after football? Just because you choose to try and work with a talented kid that can help the team doesn't mean you're selling out your program. Now, if the kid's selfish tendancies don't change, and you allow him to bring the team down, you have failed not only the kid but you have also failed your team.
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Post by khalfie on Jul 15, 2007 13:41:19 GMT -6
WC...
I'm going through the same deal...
And this is how I'm planning on handling it...
First and foremost, you know i need every body I can get. Secondly, this kid is a stud, but has shown no desire or commitment to the team...
Being I'm in the position of authority... he is forever on my sh_tlist... he won't get a good word from me until he changes his ways....
HOwever, I'm no idiot, I will have an assistant coach get in the kids ear, be that best friend, and slowly manipulate the boy to seeing things my way.
You have to have a double agent... someone who talks the kids language, keeps him around, while at the same time, you beat and demand of him in no uncertain terms, to do things the right way....
And if then he doesn't come around.... then use him to make the extreme example, when you show him the door for non-compliance.
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Post by ttowntiger on Jul 15, 2007 13:41:46 GMT -6
Wildcat,
You have to make the decision of are you trying to build a good TEAM or a good PROGRAM. Good programs win every year. Even the majority of mediocre programs have a good team once in a while. Success over time is what's really important in my opinion. I have much more respect for programs that win 7-8 games consistently and never quite win it all than I do for programs that may be a one year wonder and win it all one year, then go 3-7, 4-6 most other years. I also greatly respect prograns that trt try to do the right thing, even if it may cost them a win or 2 in the short term. My advice is to sit down with the kid and mark out your expectations for him. AND DON'T WAIVER! If he still won't comply, your program will be much better off in the long run without him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2007 13:44:49 GMT -6
But, to me, it seems like the players all want this kid to play. Might they interpret it as the coaches are failing them by not letting him play? My take is since summer work is "voluntary" you can't tell him to not be their Aug 8th, coach, but I would have a sit down with him sometime before then. The kid sounds almost identical to a kid I coached down in Mt. Vernon. HC had a sit down with him and he ended up being a great player, but a great teammate as well!!
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Post by khalfie on Jul 15, 2007 13:54:30 GMT -6
I disagree with ALL THE OTHER COACHES!!  Don't say another word to this kid... you have to careless... do not make this a big issue... on your part that is... Get the double agent, have him woo the kid... But you be that guy, the hardcore, gunny, that takes no (watch your mouth!) If the kid then doesn't come around.... show him the door... you can not lose your position of authority, and as the new guy, you have more equity with these kids right now, then you ever will! Do not sit down and coddle with this boy anymore... |
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Post by brophy on Jul 15, 2007 14:02:23 GMT -6
what's in it for HIM?
Why should he care?
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 15, 2007 14:18:52 GMT -6
The first thing I did- even before I officially was named the HC was place all the varsity athletes on a point system- so many for lifting, so many for spring ball, so many for speed camp, so many for grades, so many for attending camp etc- I'll total them up at camp next week and no team member who has less then 85% of the total possible dresses until they've made up the points they are missing. It's straight forward cut and dry and applies to everyone. Make up opportunities will be early mornings or after practice. As I explained to them the alpha dogs will set the pace if you wish to dress/play you'll keep up if not you'll get left in the dust............. where you'll be compared to those who've shown a commitment to the team and where you belong. This kids like he is because at every step along the way coaches were concerned with winning and their own egos rather then developing some charactor and an appropriate attitude.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 15, 2007 14:26:29 GMT -6
Again, does your program want to follow a championship blue print, or a slightly above .500 blue print?
I think dcohio hit the nail on the head. If this was a kid who would be a back-up or maybe see a little special teams unit PT, would you be wondering what to do?
I keep reading other coaches saying "sit down and explain to him your expectations". HE ALREADY IS NOT LIFTING? HE IS ALREADY DEFYING AN OBVIOUS EXPECTATION (assuming the rest of the team is lifting)
Also, at some point (and mostlikely VERY VERY soon in his life/career) this boy is going to run into a situation where he is NOT better than everyone. Then what? He has 17/18 years of experience that say "you don't have to really do anything tough, or that you don't like. You are better then them. Everyone should appease you" Why on EARTH would he possibly view anything differently? This is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS a combination for failure and letdowns. When this failure occurs depends on his talent, but rest assured, if someone doesn't show him the light, IT WILL HAPPEN.
As far as most of the kids wanting him to play... I think THAT is your big issue. What are the programs expections? What are the kids sacrificing or investing into the program? If they don't feel extreme displeasure at the thought that others don't have to make teh sacrifice or investment, but still can play.... well, time to evaluate the program.
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Post by phantom on Jul 15, 2007 14:35:44 GMT -6
Wolverine makes a point. In our state the offseason program cannot be mandatory. Under our rules, I'd let the kid come out but if he missed practice, mouthed off, dogged it, etc. he'd be gone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2007 14:36:06 GMT -6
I fail to see how letting this kid play will lead to the ruination of the program. Program's need to win games to be built, don't they? Again, you can't tell him not to show up the first day of practice. You can start him on the bottom of the depth chart and make him work his way up. He will either quit or get it done. I don't see any harm in that. One former HC I coached under made it clear that being at summer workouts helped, but the best players play. If kid A busts his butt all summer, kid B doesn't but is still better by opening night, he plays. The kids understood that and we never had any issues.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 15, 2007 14:48:25 GMT -6
wolverine--simple It is a blueprint for an avg program. Not a championship one. What type of culture is being created? What type of standards? What type of "esprit de corp" What type of pride in the program? All that summer work/offseason work, weights, gassers, speed camp, plyo's etc. is not designed to get you to "beat out the guy next to you" it is all designed to BEAT THE GUY ACROSS from you. Just a recipe for disaster, especially with someone who is an incessant complainer. Reaper--looks like we finally agree on something  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2007 15:03:10 GMT -6
We'll just have to respectfully disagree on this one. I don't know the kid, so I'm not vouching for him, but I would have to think long and hard before telling a kid whose apparantly this talented, "Sorry, son, there's no place for you on this team" before I've worn out all options.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 15, 2007 15:09:30 GMT -6
There was a place on the team....he decided NOT to take it. He isn't going to the lifting/summer workouts. The question here is do you beg for him to take it?
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Post by ttowntiger on Jul 15, 2007 16:06:47 GMT -6
And this kid better get used to working if he plans on playing at the next level, be it football or basketball. Make no mistake about it, in my mind, if a kid wants to play, he'd better be there in the summer time. We're talking about high school football here, not rec league ball.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 15, 2007 16:33:58 GMT -6
CoachD- even two stubborn fools will eventually find something they can agree upon  One thing that I've noticed is that many kids are way to forgiving of a "talented" turd and the baggage they bring to a team. Lets be honest though do we really believe 16-17 year olds are the best determiners of what's best for the program? I think we all know what the answer to that question is. Sometimes hurting a bit now means you don't suffer long term with the same type of problems season after season. It sounds to me though you know what you want to do, know it's likely not best for the program so you want some reassurances from coaches here it's ok to allow you to be ok with it. |
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Post by warrior53 on Jul 15, 2007 16:53:23 GMT -6
Have you met this kids parents? He is probably getting this attitude from home or he is getting nothing from home.
If he is one of those kids who's parents are supportive and they don't know how he is acting on the field? Get them involved or someone who is his role model, uncle, grandmother, etc. Talk to them first then, meet with them all together and set out a plan on how to act - if he crosses the line or he does not meet your expectations then have a plan on what his punishment is going to be. Then also be ready to execute the plan. That way you have some support from outside. If you can not find people that are backing the school and proper behavior then you are in trouble - the young man is all alone and you are fighting a lot more than a poor attitude.
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 15, 2007 17:37:32 GMT -6
LOL, all that's fine if he's a sophmore to be but when he's a senior to be that ships left the dock along time a go.
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Post by tigercoach on Jul 15, 2007 18:05:16 GMT -6
Have to agree with coachd, reaper and khalfie on this one. Funny thing is I didn't realize how much I would agree until I was the head coach. It wasn't until then that I did learn how truly important what coachd is speaking of. I think the harder athletes (average, above average and below) work the less forgiving they are towards those who are sleeping in during summer pride. Ultimately I believe kids have to buy into the "journey" to truly reap the rewards of being involved in a quality football program.
Sometime during the season in the middle of a game that will decide post season placement or maybe even the championship itself there will come a time when the kids on the team will look into the eyes of each other in the huddle and know in their hearts who they can trust to make plays while playing as hard as they can and those they can't.
Every one of us that has played has "looked" and we have all played with people at various points in our playing careers with players who hadn't earned the right or our trust. To me there is a synergy with players who have prepared to win. In the end, preparation always wins.
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Post by wildcat on Jul 15, 2007 19:27:05 GMT -6
CoachD- even two stubborn fools will eventually find something they can agree upon One thing that I've noticed is that many kids are way to forgiving of a "talented" turd and the baggage they bring to a team. Lets be honest though do we really believe 16-17 year olds are the best determiners of what's best for the program? I think we all know what the answer to that question is. Sometimes hurting a bit now means you don't suffer long term with the same type of problems season after season. It sounds to me though you know what you want to do, know it's likely not best for the program so you want some reassurances from coaches here it's ok to allow you to be ok with it. aj - This is exactly what I am struggling with THE MOST...the other kids want him to play and be on the team but, honestly, what do 16-18 year old kids know? All they can see is the 3 feet in front of their face...how often do we let the kids make major decisions in other aspects of the team? Why should this be any different? |
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Post by wildcat on Jul 15, 2007 19:34:07 GMT -6
Have you met this kids parents? He is probably getting this attitude from home or he is getting nothing from home. If he is one of those kids who's parents are supportive and they don't know how he is acting on the field? Get them involved or someone who is his role model, uncle, grandmother, etc. Talk to them first then, meet with them all together and set out a plan on how to act - if he crosses the line or he does not meet your expectations then have a plan on what his punishment is going to be. Then also be ready to execute the plan. That way you have some support from outside. If you can not find people that are backing the school and proper behavior then you are in trouble - the young man is all alone and you are fighting a lot more than a poor attitude. Well, his home life has EVERYTHING to do with why he is the way he is...dad is not in the picture, mom is a welfare queen, and his "entourage" is why his ego is out of control...all of the hangers-on looking at him as their meal ticket when he makes it to the big time (again, this kid has a 14 on his ACT and a 1.8 GPA - not going ANYWHERE!) I think what we will most likely do is start practice with him at the bottom of the depth chart and then he will have to work his way up. If he doesn't understand the defense or the offense, he won't play. If he turns cancerous, he won't play. But, if the kid earns his position in practice, complies with team rules, and does not upset the chemistry and culture, I don't see any way in which he can be denied. |
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Post by wildcat on Jul 15, 2007 19:40:52 GMT -6
And this kid better get used to working if he plans on playing at the next level, be it football or basketball. Make no mistake about it, in my mind, if a kid wants to play, he'd better be there in the summer time. We're talking about high school football here, not rec league ball. See, that is just the thing...kid will NOT play at the next level (unless he goes to JUCO next year and gets his grades up). My concern about him is, what happens to him after high school? He has all of these unrealistic expectations about college and even the NBA...Thing is, guys like Tank Johnson and Pac Man Jones are not created over night...a long history of people in a position of authority looking the other way when anti-social behavior is exhibited by "elite" athletes is what develops this false sense of entitlement. Don't want to see that happen to this kid, but, in all likelihood, the damage is done...kid is 18 years old and there probably isn't a whole lot I can say or do to reverse his attitude... |
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Post by khalfie on Jul 15, 2007 20:14:49 GMT -6
1 word...
Double Agent...
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