|
Post by bignose on May 16, 2020 11:45:41 GMT -6
Language and terminology have to be relatable and identifiable to someone for it to stick. I have a special education certification and an English certification, so I have lots of practice in teaching vocabulary. Any verbiage is the same as learning vocabulary on the older Frayer Model: What is the definition? (its meaning) What is a simplified or relatable definition someone can understand? How is it used? What is a picture or symbol that you associate with it. Rinse and repeat. I think that it is a matter of relatable information and developing mnemonic devices to convey this information. In my case, 50 years of using numbers and play descriptions seemed to work well. But the use of multiple verbiage they think they needed to conceal their no huddle play calling seemed very confusing to me. And if it is confusing to me, how is this being absorbed by my kids?
|
|
|
Post by blb on May 16, 2020 12:14:01 GMT -6
Calling plays by seemingly random words is nothing new.
Tiger Ellison, inventor of the Run and Shoot offense, called his plays-series things such as Gangster, Mudcat, Cowboy, and Popcorn.
He just didn't do it because he was HUNH and trying to conceal his intentions from defense.
|
|
|
Post by freezeoption on May 16, 2020 15:57:57 GMT -6
And the areas had names like sky, purgatory etc. He said you didn't want to hang in purgatory to long and go to the blue sky. I use to have that book and loaned it out and never got it back.
|
|
|
Post by bignose on May 16, 2020 16:37:23 GMT -6
Tiger Ellison's play calling used simple two, or three word play calls: i.e. Mudcat Smash, Right, Gangster Pass Throwback. And he ran a lot of variations of the same plays, from one base formation.
His intent was to keep the play calling light and lively, while providing mnemonic words to paint a picture in the kids minds.
His zone calls, Red, White, Blue, Boston, Heaven, Hell etc. were done with the same intent.
Compare that to: Silver Flex, Denver, Ghost, Scat, Open X, on three.
The mnemonics might be there (if the words relate to the play type, point of attack, formation, motion, etc.), but it was the complications of each play, having a contained RPO built in, and the speed with which they were sent in that I had difficulty processing. It sure wasn't simple football. Lol
|
|
|
Post by Sparkey on May 18, 2020 13:47:03 GMT -6
Don't know where that came from coach. Maybe involuntary finger response? :-)
|
|
|
Post by center on May 18, 2020 15:23:43 GMT -6
When I think of a coach that "the game has passed them by" I don't think of it in terms of knowledge. I think of it in terms of the way they currently relate to players or their training methods.
There are a few coaches that I have seen that were great in their prime that no longer relate to players very well and probably need to adapt or move on.
|
|
|
Post by irishdog on May 18, 2020 15:27:51 GMT -6
I played high school ball from 1966-1968. I have been coaching since 1974, so figure 45 years on the sideline. I attended a Glazier Clinic recently and listened to a coach speak with great enthusiasm about his offense. His stats were impressive, nearly 2,000 yards rushing and over 3,500 yards passing. I found that his terminology and method of play calling very difficult to follow. No numbers for holes or backs, everything had a code name, in some cases several code names ,because they were high speed- no huddle and wanted to keep the defense off balance and be able to call the same thing several ways to keep the defense from locking in. To me this required a lot of rote memorization by the kids. A clap for the cadence. O.K. I got that, a lot of colleges are doing this. His series and system was not real apparent to me. More like a situational sequence based on down and distance, along with some defensive reaction conflicts. He was running plays so fast that the new play was being called before the ball was set. How did he know what to call? He ran a combination of Jet Sweep and complimentary plays, plus a playaction , and bootleg passing game. His goal was to score 70 points per game. Every one of his plays had a read and an RPO built in. It seemed extraordinarily QB centric. (The QB was his son has signed with a major university). I was sitting thinking to myself: "I can't teach this." This seemed to be way too much for a kid to handle and this old dog can't learn these new tricks.
Now I ran triple option for a lot of years, but moved away from offenses like this, to match the talent that I had available. I found out the hard way that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers, and wishful thinking doesn't help you achieve success on the field. My young HC wants to install a system like this. He is 3-27 over the past 3 years, running a vanilla Spread. I am trying to keep him from repeating the hard lessons I learned many moons ago. I am being very resistant, because our talent is mediocre, at best. We would be much better off IMO slowing the game down instead of speeding it up, and exposing our defense due to the 3 and outs. So I am left wondering: "Am I a dinosaur, or am I a fossil?" A dinosaur is still alive, but a fossil......... Coach, you and I are very close in age. Like you the new age way of running offenses is very different from what you and I learned, knew, and taught. I've been able to "catch on" to some of these new terms and the method to their madness. The way I call my offense is still rooted in what I was always told (K.I.S.S.) but today while that acronym still applies you and I have to work on the translations to figure it out. My issue isn't with the terminology, or the use of funny pictures on posters on the sidelines, or any of that. My issue has EVERYTHING to do with the way kids and the younger coaches talk to one another today. I can't figure out WTH they are talking about half the time! I don't want to ask, and have them laugh at me. THAT'S what makes me feel like a fossil.
|
|
|
Post by carookie on May 18, 2020 17:20:53 GMT -6
Tiger Ellison's play calling used simple two, or three word play calls: i.e. Mudcat Smash, Right, Gangster Pass Throwback. And he ran a lot of variations of the same plays, from one base formation. His intent was to keep the play calling light and lively, while providing mnemonic words to paint a picture in the kids minds. His zone calls, Red, White, Blue, Boston, Heaven, Hell etc. were done with the same intent. Compare that to: Silver Flex, Denver, Ghost, Scat, Open X, on three. The mnemonics might be there (if the words relate to the play type, point of attack, formation, motion, etc.), but it was the complications of each play, having a contained RPO built in, and the speed with which they were sent in that I had difficulty processing. It sure wasn't simple football. Lol This just wreaks of Grudenism to me, making something overly complex for the sake of complexity to impress others with how complex (see intelligent) you must be. I imagine all 11 players didn't have to know what all those words meant, but lets just assume they did; furthermore, lets assume that the coach saying them all knew exactly why he called them and did them faster than you could. Does that make him BETTER than you? NO- it does not. Just like too many coaches try to 'keep up with the Joneses' in regards to hours spent grinding, too many try to do so in regards to complexity. It starts off at the higher levels, where even there its unnecessary, and works its way down to high school. The problem is too many parties involved have sold themselves, and others, that the mark of being a good coach is being an overly verbose mad scientist type who can rattle off 20 word plays (see Gruden)....don't believe the hype. And while unfortunately it may fool many, even some who are responsible for hiring coaches, this type of stuff does NOT make one a better coach. So no, nothing has past you by, at least not based on what I've read here.
|
|
|
Post by bignose on May 18, 2020 17:57:42 GMT -6
Compare that to: Silver Flex, Denver, Ghost, Scat, Open X, on three. OK so tell me if this makes sense: Silver Flex: formation call. I'm OK with that, I used formation colors as well. I try to use R colors to the right, i.e. Red, and L colors to the left: Blue. Black / Brown, Green / Gold etc.
Unh, Silver is both an R and L color! As is Purple. Denver: POA and play type. As I recall Denver is Power Left, because Denver is West of the Mississippi. Do my kids know enough geography to recognize this? I know my Bangladeshi left tackle, who has never seen a football game doesn't have a clue. Each POA / Play description has a different city or state, some have multiple names to try to outsmart the defense. Oy! Ghost is the position of the H-back. He is the only one who needs to know that Scat is the H-Back's motion, same as above Open X tells the X receiver to split extra wide. "On three": I don't know about your kids, but anytime we go on anything but one we lose 5 yards before the play starts! We had six possible snap counts. Do you think they allowed the kids to get off the ball better? The bignose first rule of football: Don't do stupid $hit to beat yourself! Football games are very hard to win, but very easy to lose if you set the kids up to make mistakes by the complexity of the system.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:56:11 GMT -6
Compare that to: Silver Flex, Denver, Ghost, Scat, Open X, on three. OK so tell me if this makes sense: Silver Flex: formation call. I'm OK with that, I used formation colors as well. I try to use R colors to the right, i.e. Red, and L colors to the left: Blue. Black / Brown, Green / Gold etc.
Unh, Silver is both an R and L color! As is Purple. Denver: POA and play type. As I recall Denver is Power Left, because Denver is West of the Mississippi. Do my kids know enough geography to recognize this? I know my Bangladeshi left tackle, who has never seen a football game doesn't have a clue. Each POA / Play description has a different city or state, some have multiple names to try to outsmart the defense. Oy! Ghost is the position of the H-back. He is the only one who needs to know that Scat is the H-Back's motion, same as above Open X tells the X receiver to split extra wide. "On three": I don't know about your kids, but anytime we go on anything but one we lose 5 yards before the play starts! We had six possible snap counts. Do you think they allowed the kids to get off the ball better? The bignose first rule of football: Don't do stupid $hit to beat yourself! Football games are very hard to win, but very easy to lose if you set the kids up to make mistakes by the complexity of the system. Silver is personnel grouping, lots of times means 2 Y’s Flex is one of the tight ends is aligned a little wider Denver and ghost would be two concepts in a 2x2 or 3x1 open x would just be: “Look at X Dummie, (coaches can see) f-face defender cant cover him.” scat would tell the back and or the line what to do..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 18, 2020 18:58:57 GMT -6
Tiger Ellison's play calling used simple two, or three word play calls: i.e. Mudcat Smash, Right, Gangster Pass Throwback. And he ran a lot of variations of the same plays, from one base formation. His intent was to keep the play calling light and lively, while providing mnemonic words to paint a picture in the kids minds. His zone calls, Red, White, Blue, Boston, Heaven, Hell etc. were done with the same intent. Compare that to: Silver Flex, Denver, Ghost, Scat, Open X, on three. The mnemonics might be there (if the words relate to the play type, point of attack, formation, motion, etc.), but it was the complications of each play, having a contained RPO built in, and the speed with which they were sent in that I had difficulty processing. It sure wasn't simple football. Lol It really isn’t that complicated. You are, respectfully, old, but not to old to learn or grasp things you already know in a different way.
|
|
lmorris
Sophomore Member
Posts: 195
|
Post by lmorris on May 18, 2020 20:30:58 GMT -6
When I was a freshman one of my teammates asked coach to draw up Nintendo, because the team we were about to play had a play called Nintendo. This would have been early 90's.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on May 19, 2020 11:45:39 GMT -6
Tiger Ellison's play calling used simple two, or three word play calls: i.e. Mudcat Smash, Right, Gangster Pass Throwback. And he ran a lot of variations of the same plays, from one base formation. His intent was to keep the play calling light and lively, while providing mnemonic words to paint a picture in the kids minds. His zone calls, Red, White, Blue, Boston, Heaven, Hell etc. were done with the same intent. Compare that to: Silver Flex, Denver, Ghost, Scat, Open X, on three. The mnemonics might be there (if the words relate to the play type, point of attack, formation, motion, etc.), but it was the complications of each play, having a contained RPO built in, and the speed with which they were sent in that I had difficulty processing. It sure wasn't simple football. Lol
Agreed. There needs to be method behind the madness.
I cut my teeth under a SBV guy who called the plays based on NFL teams, college teams and their geography.
Veer: Steeler Right/Left
Veer Pop pass: Eagle Right/Left Veer Zone Dive/Gut: Lion (Penn State) Right/Left
Quick pitch: Raider Right/Left
Quick pitch influence trap: 49er Right/Left
Quick pitch boot: Trojan Right/Left
|
|
|
Post by wolverine55 on May 19, 2020 11:49:05 GMT -6
Using NFL teams and their mascots is probably my favorite way of doing it, although I'll admit I've never worked for an OC or HC that's done it that way. Example in my scenario being Power: Pittsburgh is Power Right, Steelers is Power Left, Carolina is Counter Right and Panthers is counter left and so on and so forth based on whatever concepts you run.
We have in the past done it to where words represented the play directly. Example: PRetend was Power Right, PLay was Power Left, CiRcus was Counter Right, CLown was counter left and again so on and so forth.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 12:07:25 GMT -6
Using NFL teams and their mascots is probably my favorite way of doing it, although I'll admit I've never worked for an OC or HC that's done it that way. Example in my scenario being Power: Pittsburgh is Power Right, Steelers is Power Left, Carolina is Counter Right and Panthers is counter left and so on and so forth based on whatever concepts you run. We have in the past done it to where words represented the play directly. Example: PRetend was Power Right, PLay was Power Left, CiRcus was Counter Right, CLown was counter left and again so on and so forth. we did the NFL thing. Qbs were passes running backs were runs. Warren moon would be warren to the left, moon to the right.
|
|
|
Post by s73 on May 19, 2020 13:25:45 GMT -6
I'm about to commit "visor guy" blasphemy. Visor guys, prepare your crucifixes and holy water, here we go.
I'm calling BS on the RPO. Yep, I said it.
Let me explain.
Have been a flex bone guy w/ a sprinkle of wing t my whole career. Two seasons ago, my returning QB was coming off a terrible ankle injury and was about 70% or so physically where his running ability was concerned. So, I implemented some gun / RPO style stuff to limit his need to run.
Well, IMO outside of maybe the bubble, I think it is almost impossible to read any routes post snap during the mesh. Routes just don't break open soon enough.
Now admittedly, my experience and expertise (if you can call it that) is meshing the run and my experience is minimal w/ RPO. But I just don't see how it is physically possible to read routes post snap in the limited amount of time you have to mesh the back. Especially when you need to look the snap in.
Basically, what I'm saying is I believe the RPO, no matter what anybody says, is almost always the QB determining what he wants to do pre-snap based on alignment / coverage. Otherwise, in the time available to mesh and read routes, I feel the RPO is basically myth. The kid is either guessing or pulling and throwing b/c, well....he's a QB and just "happened" to read the route as "open".
Again, minimal experience at this so maybe I'm wrong but after teaching it, and filming it, I see almost no way even short routes can break open in the short amount of time it takes to mesh w/ a back.
I may very well be full of **** but that was my experience.
Half way through the season he got back into playing shape, we refocused on our "tried and true" and won out to make the play offs and our scoring total increased from 19 / game to 30.
Again, maybe I'm wrong or taught it poorly but that was my experience.
|
|
|
Post by dijackson08 on May 19, 2020 16:41:37 GMT -6
I'm about to commit "visor guy" blasphemy. Visor guys, prepare your crucifixes and holy water, here we go. I'm calling BS on the RPO. Yep, I said it. Let me explain. Have been a flex bone guy w/ a sprinkle of wing t my whole career. Two seasons ago, my returning QB was coming off a terrible ankle injury and was about 70% or so physically where his running ability was concerned. So, I implemented some gun / RPO style stuff to limit his need to run. Well, IMO outside of maybe the bubble, I think it is almost impossible to read any routes post snap during the mesh. Routes just don't break open soon enough. Now admittedly, my experience and expertise (if you can call it that) is meshing the run and my experience is minimal w/ RPO. But I just don't see how it is physically possible to read routes post snap in the limited amount of time you have to mesh the back. Especially when you need to look the snap in. Basically, what I'm saying is I believe the RPO, no matter what anybody says, is almost always the QB determining what he wants to do pre-snap based on alignment / coverage. Otherwise, in the time available to mesh and read routes, I feel the RPO is basically myth. The kid is either guessing or pulling and throwing b/c, well....he's a QB and just "happened" to read the route as "open". Again, minimal experience at this so maybe I'm wrong but after teaching it, and filming it, I see almost no way even short routes can break open in the short amount of time it takes to mesh w/ a back. I may very well be full of **** but that was my experience. Half way through the season he got back into playing shape, we refocused on our "tried and true" and won out to make the play offs and our scoring total increased from 19 / game to 30. Again, maybe I'm wrong or taught it poorly but that was my experience. I’ve been the DC on a RPO team the last 3 years and we never read routes. We have a presnap that we can throw based on the corners leverage and we have a read. We read a LB if he steps up we pull and throw. If he stays we hand off the ball.
|
|
|
Post by s73 on May 19, 2020 19:03:38 GMT -6
I'm about to commit "visor guy" blasphemy. Visor guys, prepare your crucifixes and holy water, here we go. I'm calling BS on the RPO. Yep, I said it. Let me explain. Have been a flex bone guy w/ a sprinkle of wing t my whole career. Two seasons ago, my returning QB was coming off a terrible ankle injury and was about 70% or so physically where his running ability was concerned. So, I implemented some gun / RPO style stuff to limit his need to run. Well, IMO outside of maybe the bubble, I think it is almost impossible to read any routes post snap during the mesh. Routes just don't break open soon enough. Now admittedly, my experience and expertise (if you can call it that) is meshing the run and my experience is minimal w/ RPO. But I just don't see how it is physically possible to read routes post snap in the limited amount of time you have to mesh the back. Especially when you need to look the snap in. Basically, what I'm saying is I believe the RPO, no matter what anybody says, is almost always the QB determining what he wants to do pre-snap based on alignment / coverage. Otherwise, in the time available to mesh and read routes, I feel the RPO is basically myth. The kid is either guessing or pulling and throwing b/c, well....he's a QB and just "happened" to read the route as "open". Again, minimal experience at this so maybe I'm wrong but after teaching it, and filming it, I see almost no way even short routes can break open in the short amount of time it takes to mesh w/ a back. I may very well be full of **** but that was my experience. Half way through the season he got back into playing shape, we refocused on our "tried and true" and won out to make the play offs and our scoring total increased from 19 / game to 30. Again, maybe I'm wrong or taught it poorly but that was my experience. I’ve been the DC on a RPO team the last 3 years and we never read routes. We have a presnap that we can throw based on the corners leverage and we have a read. We read a LB if he steps up we pull and throw. If he stays we hand off the ball. To be clear, I was talking about pre snap v. post snap reads. Not a route per se. I am questioning the validity of accuracy on the post snap read. Here's an example of what I'm saying perhaps more clearly. Many times I have heard it said, that the run game is much quicker hitting UC v. the gun. I think few would argue that based on proximity from the LOS. MY point is that I believe a LB can take a couple of read steps and still effectively attack the run v. the slower function of the run game from the gun. Hence, the read steps "muddy" the read. It is difficult to make an accurate post snap read RPO due to the timing of the mesh v. the fill of the LB, it is a very "grey" read IMO. Furthermore, it is not enough time to determine based on that muddy read if the route will actually be open post snap. What I an saying is that I believe even post snap RPO's tend to be more "pre-snap" in the QB's mind whether we say it is or not. Hope that makes sense and as always, JME. PS - I do acknowledge the LB may get out a bit more slowly by being frozen or biting on the mesh, but I question if it is really anymore effective than regular playaction. Again, JMO.
|
|
|
Post by lochness on May 23, 2020 19:09:47 GMT -6
I'm about to commit "visor guy" blasphemy. Visor guys, prepare your crucifixes and holy water, here we go. I'm calling BS on the RPO. Yep, I said it. Let me explain. Have been a flex bone guy w/ a sprinkle of wing t my whole career. Two seasons ago, my returning QB was coming off a terrible ankle injury and was about 70% or so physically where his running ability was concerned. So, I implemented some gun / RPO style stuff to limit his need to run. Well, IMO outside of maybe the bubble, I think it is almost impossible to read any routes post snap during the mesh. Routes just don't break open soon enough. Now admittedly, my experience and expertise (if you can call it that) is meshing the run and my experience is minimal w/ RPO. But I just don't see how it is physically possible to read routes post snap in the limited amount of time you have to mesh the back. Especially when you need to look the snap in. Basically, what I'm saying is I believe the RPO, no matter what anybody says, is almost always the QB determining what he wants to do pre-snap based on alignment / coverage. Otherwise, in the time available to mesh and read routes, I feel the RPO is basically myth. The kid is either guessing or pulling and throwing b/c, well....he's a QB and just "happened" to read the route as "open". Again, minimal experience at this so maybe I'm wrong but after teaching it, and filming it, I see almost no way even short routes can break open in the short amount of time it takes to mesh w/ a back. I may very well be full of **** but that was my experience. Half way through the season he got back into playing shape, we refocused on our "tried and true" and won out to make the play offs and our scoring total increased from 19 / game to 30. Again, maybe I'm wrong or taught it poorly but that was my experience. I got a bucketload of film a couple years ago on one of our state's premier warp-speed RPO facemelter score 90 and tip my visor to you offenses. Took me about 6 quarters of film to be 100% certain that their RPO QB was just picking whatever option of the post-snap read he liked better and going with that....mind made up well before the snap. I could always tell because he'd half-ass or rush the mesh on a play that was supposed to be a fancy high-tech post-snap RPO. I've never been a fan. If I want to run the ball, I want to run the phuscking ball. I don't want some cocky 16 year old trying to pad his stats pulling and throwing a slant.p to his WR buddy. Most quick pass plays are already putting an under-coverage guy in conflict anyway, so I never understood the whole "OR WE CAN HAND IT OFF" mystique. Maybe I'm the dinosaur, but in HS, this just seemed sexy for sexy's sake. I mean, {censored}, how many defensive reactions are you expecting where you need to read that stuff on the fly? It also seems a little disingenuous because a HS QB throwing the ball to his HS WR Buddy on his own is rarely going to be as efficient as running the ball, particularly if one of this guys is having a bad night. And , if you're catching a dual responsibility defender sticking his nose in on run, that's what old school tried-and-true playaction pass calls are for. I trust my press box guy to make that decision. Not Johnny McDinkmuffin the QB.
|
|
|
Post by aceback76 on May 24, 2020 7:33:34 GMT -6
I played high school ball from 1966-1968. I have been coaching since 1974, so figure 45 years on the sideline. I attended a Glazier Clinic recently and listened to a coach speak with great enthusiasm about his offense. His stats were impressive, nearly 2,000 yards rushing and over 3,500 yards passing. I found that his terminology and method of play calling very difficult to follow. No numbers for holes or backs, everything had a code name, in some cases several code names ,because they were high speed- no huddle and wanted to keep the defense off balance and be able to call the same thing several ways to keep the defense from locking in. To me this required a lot of rote memorization by the kids. A clap for the cadence. O.K. I got that, a lot of colleges are doing this. His series and system was not real apparent to me. More like a situational sequence based on down and distance, along with some defensive reaction conflicts. He was running plays so fast that the new play was being called before the ball was set. How did he know what to call? He ran a combination of Jet Sweep and complimentary plays, plus a playaction , and bootleg passing game. His goal was to score 70 points per game. Every one of his plays had a read and an RPO built in. It seemed extraordinarily QB centric. (The QB was his son has signed with a major university). I was sitting thinking to myself: "I can't teach this." This seemed to be way too much for a kid to handle and this old dog can't learn these new tricks.
Now I ran triple option for a lot of years, but moved away from offenses like this, to match the talent that I had available. I found out the hard way that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers, and wishful thinking doesn't help you achieve success on the field. My young HC wants to install a system like this. He is 3-27 over the past 3 years, running a vanilla Spread. I am trying to keep him from repeating the hard lessons I learned many moons ago. I am being very resistant, because our talent is mediocre, at best. We would be much better off IMO slowing the game down instead of speeding it up, and exposing our defense due to the 3 and outs. So I am left wondering: "Am I a dinosaur, or am I a fossil?" A dinosaur is still alive, but a fossil......... Remember this: A Coach can be "out-of-touch" at ANY age!!! I will always believe that if a coach teaches his players the following (SEC/ACC STYLE FOOTBALL), he will kick a lot of ass, & WIN BIG, and the game will certainly NOT pass "pass him by": Teach your players they must be more aggressive and "out mean" their opponents if they expect to win consistently. If they "out mean" and physically whip their opponents by hard blocking and tackling, and are consistent in doing it, they'll win a lot of football games. Football is a contact sport, and they must make the initial contact. In order to be a winner a player must whip his man individually, and the team must beat the opponent physically.
|
|
|
Post by bignose on May 24, 2020 9:34:32 GMT -6
By wondering aloud about the "Game Passing me by". I remember as a much younger coach than I am now, listening to parents and other coaches talking with one another about a coach who was somewhat younger than the age that I am now. He had experienced a couple of less than successful seasons after decades of winning, and I heard this phrase used in describing his offense.
As Lombardi succinctly put it: "Football is blocking and Tackling." You can win running the Single Wing, the T, the Veer, the Double Wing, but loose a couple of games running what is perceived as an "old fashioned" offense, and you will start to get some resistance from the "know nothings."
I sometimes get the feeling that parents would rather see you lose running a Spread offense that doesn't match your talent level, then win running something contrarian.
But perceptions about what you are doing is a part of the coaching conundrum. Run what is perceived as an "old fashioned" offense, and lose and the sniping from the stands begin, no matter how sound your schemes are.
In regards to my original post, listening to the Glazier presenter, he obviously had a much better kid at QB than I will have in my current situation. In my 45 plus years of coaching, I have had perhaps 3-4 kids who I felt that I could cut loose and give them "the keys to the team bus" to make those sort of on-field decisions during the game. All of the others, no. In my current situation, as a JV coach with many kids who have never played football before, it would be way over their heads.
Somewhere in the "ancient past" early 1980's or so, I discussed what was called the "Norfolk Option" with one of my senior QB's. I had taught the kid since middle school so I knew him fairly well. Bright kid, very good athlete.
The Norfolk Option was a 4 way read, a Triple Option with a built in RPO. From a SBV Pro formation, the QB could Give on the Inside Veer Dive, Keep the ball outside of the tackle, pitch the ball to the trailing HB, or pass the ball to the arc releasing TE if the secondary support player came up to defend the pitch.
His response was to look at me and roll his eyes. This would have overloaded him. He didn't think that this was a good idea, eventhough it "looked good on paper."
The point is, this is what I was getting at. If contemporary football requires that I coach that type of offense, i am truly left behind.
|
|
|
Post by aceback76 on May 24, 2020 9:46:31 GMT -6
By wondering aloud about the "Game Passing me by". I remember as a much younger coach than I am now, listening to parents and other coaches talking with one another about a coach who was somewhat younger than the age that I am now. He had experienced a couple of less than successful seasons after decades of winning, and I heard this phrase used in describing his offense. As Lombardi succinctly put it: "Football is blocking and Tackling." You can win running the Single Wing, the T, the Veer, the Double Wing, but loose a couple of games running what is perceived as an "old fashioned" offense, and you will start to get some resistance from the "know nothings." I sometimes get the feeling that parents would rather see you lose running a Spread offense that doesn't match your talent level, then win running something contrarian. But perceptions about what you are doing is a part of the coaching conundrum. Run what is perceived as an "old fashioned" offense, and lose and the sniping from the stands begin, no matter how sound your schemes are. In regards to my original post, listening to the Glazier presenter, he obviously had a much better kid at QB than I will have in my current situation. In my 45 plus years of coaching, I have had perhaps 3-4 kids who I felt that I could cut loose and give them "the keys to the team bus" to make those sort of on-field decisions during the game. All of the others, no. In my current situation, as a JV coach with many kids who have never played football before, it would be way over their heads. Somewhere in the "ancient past" early 1980's or so, I discussed what was called the "Norfolk Option" with one of my senior QB's. I had taught the kid since middle school so I knew him fairly well. Bright kid, very good athlete. The Norfolk Option was a 4 way read, a Triple Option with a built in RPO. From a SBV Pro formation, the QB could Give on the Inside Veer Dive, Keep the ball outside of the tackle, pitch the ball to the trailing HB, or pass the ball to the arc releasing TE if the secondary support player came up to defend the pitch. His response was to look at me and roll his eyes. This would have overloaded him. He didn't think that this was a good idea, eventhough it "looked good on paper." The point is, this is what I was getting at. If contemporary football requires that I coach that type of offense, i am truly left behind. If you WIN, they won't care a damn about a "type of offense" (of course if you lose using what is perceived as an "out-of-date" system, critics will blame THAT, but screw "critics"). It is preached that "Winning cures cancer", so just win! The SECRET is STILL convincing your players that “Football, in its purest form, remains a physical fight. As in any fight, if you don’t want to fight, it’s impossible to win.”
|
|
|
Post by bignose on May 24, 2020 9:57:14 GMT -6
If you WIN, they won't care a damn about a "type of offense" (of course if you lose using what is perceived as an "out-of-date" system, critics will blame THAT). It is preached that "Winning cures cancer", so just win! The SECRET is STILL convincing your players that “Football, in its purest form, remains a physical fight. As in any fight, if you don’t want to fight, it’s impossible to win.” Bill, I can't quite agree with you on this, based on personal experience. In 2010 we won a State Championship running the Double Wing. We threw 3 passes in the game. Damned if two days after the final, we had a parent go to the principal complaining that we weren't doing enough to get his son, a junior wide receiver, to get his kid a college scholarship. Our team achievement meant nothing to this selfish parent. As to toughness, can't argue with you there. In my current situation, I am coaching in a school where the kids were never allowed to play rough games like Dodgeball growing up. We are playing against a couple of teams where the kids "played Dodge with rocks." It's a whole different mindset and we had to spend half of the season convincing the kids that is was OK to be aggressive.
|
|
|
Post by aceback76 on May 24, 2020 10:04:01 GMT -6
If you WIN, they won't care a damn about a "type of offense" (of course if you lose using what is perceived as an "out-of-date" system, critics will blame THAT). It is preached that "Winning cures cancer", so just win! The SECRET is STILL convincing your players that “Football, in its purest form, remains a physical fight. As in any fight, if you don’t want to fight, it’s impossible to win.” Bill, I can't quite agree with you on this, based on personal experience. In 2010 we won a State Championship running the Double Wing. We threw 3 passes in the game. Damned if two days after the final, we had a parent go to the principal complaining that we weren't doing enough to get his son, a junior wide receiver, to get his kid a college scholarship. Our team achievement meant nothing to this selfish parent. As to toughness, can't argue with you there. In my current situation, I am coaching in a school where the kids were never allowed to play rough games like Dodgeball growing up. We are playing against a couple of teams where the kids "played Dodge with rocks." It's a whole different mindset and we had to spend half of the season convincing the kids that is was OK to be aggressive. If it was about THAT parent's son, it wouldn't make any difference WHAT offense you ran if he felt you weren't doing enough to get his kid a college scholarship (run OR pass). Get my point? I heard Bud Wilkinson give a GREAT lecture once on how a Coach must be a SALESMAN to the extent that he teaches his parents & players to BELIEVE that the offense he runs is the BEST! NOTE: Remember that some guy named "Clark" on the now mercifully defunct "DUMCOACH" site always argued that "the X & O was more important that the Jimmy & Joe", which is the ALL-TIME dumb-ass statement regarding football??? I guess it "takes all kinds"!
|
|
|
Post by blb on May 24, 2020 10:09:38 GMT -6
The "entertainment factor" of the NFL and even CFB has definitely trickled down to HS football. As bignose inferred, "fans" (aka parents) would rather see a long incompletion than a well-executed Trap play that gains six yards. It's as if they think you're not trying to score if you're UC or not passing.
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on May 24, 2020 10:24:22 GMT -6
When I tell people my influence for the offense I like to run was a split back veer team they don't know what to do.
I can tell you this, in 2003 that SBV team was packaging screens on their run game and using R&S methods if the slot was uncovered "way back" then. All from under center.
Sometimes I feel like when I got into coaching football it was like getting into rasslin at the end of the territory era. I didn't have to splice up 16mm but I did have to meet another slappy at Dunkin Donuts off the highway to swap VHS tapes.
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on May 24, 2020 10:30:57 GMT -6
OK so tell me if this makes sense: Silver Flex: formation call. I'm OK with that, I used formation colors as well. I try to use R colors to the right, i.e. Red, and L colors to the left: Blue. Black / Brown, Green / Gold etc.
Unh, Silver is both an R and L color! As is Purple. Denver: POA and play type. As I recall Denver is Power Left, because Denver is West of the Mississippi. Do my kids know enough geography to recognize this? I know my Bangladeshi left tackle, who has never seen a football game doesn't have a clue. Each POA / Play description has a different city or state, some have multiple names to try to outsmart the defense. Oy! Ghost is the position of the H-back. He is the only one who needs to know that Scat is the H-Back's motion, same as above Open X tells the X receiver to split extra wide. "On three": I don't know about your kids, but anytime we go on anything but one we lose 5 yards before the play starts! We had six possible snap counts. Do you think they allowed the kids to get off the ball better? The bignose first rule of football: Don't do stupid $hit to beat yourself! Football games are very hard to win, but very easy to lose if you set the kids up to make mistakes by the complexity of the system. Silver is personnel grouping, lots of times means 2 Y’s Flex is one of the tight ends is aligned a little wider Denver and ghost would be two concepts in a 2x2 or 3x1 open x would just be: “Look at X Dummie, (coaches can see) f-face defender cant cover him.” scat would tell the back and or the line what to do.. This is a lot of crap to remember. If a play call can't be done in 4-5 words it's a waste of time. Rip Ravens is a common call of mine. 2x2 winged H base zone right bubble RPO back side. front side solo runs a choice route. Do people not have rules anymore? No tag on a run = stalk-bubble to the twins, choice to the solo?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 10:48:44 GMT -6
Silver is personnel grouping, lots of times means 2 Y’s Flex is one of the tight ends is aligned a little wider Denver and ghost would be two concepts in a 2x2 or 3x1 open x would just be: “Look at X Dummie, (coaches can see) f-face defender cant cover him.” scat would tell the back and or the line what to do.. This is a lot of crap to remember. If a play call can't be done in 4-5 words it's a waste of time. Rip Ravens is a common call of mine. 2x2 winged H base zone right bubble RPO back side. front side solo runs a choice route. Do people not have rules anymore? No tag on a run = stalk-bubble to the twins, choice to the solo? Depends on perception, knowledge, teacher and student.
|
|
|
Post by aceback76 on May 24, 2020 12:04:08 GMT -6
BUD WILKINSON: "A Coach must be skilled in SALES, as well as MANAGEMENT.
He must SELL his product (and what a difficult task that is). You must make players feel that what you are doing is the only way to win. If they lose, the players would rather blame you than themselves. They'll say, “the Pros don't use our offense – our Coach isn't as smart as the other Coach”.
To present this requires a clear-cut plan that you can explain to them clearly and they believe it. If it doesn't work it's because they didn't execute! That is what they have got to believe. A Coach must be a SALESMAN to the extent that they must think they've got the greatest offense in the world, and if it doesn't work, it's THEIR fault."
THAT'S SALES!!!
PS: It is incumbent upon each Coach to present HIS system in this manner to his players (their parents) & fan base!
|
|
|
Post by IronmanFootball on May 24, 2020 13:35:32 GMT -6
This is a lot of crap to remember. If a play call can't be done in 4-5 words it's a waste of time. Rip Ravens is a common call of mine. 2x2 winged H base zone right bubble RPO back side. front side solo runs a choice route. Do people not have rules anymore? No tag on a run = stalk-bubble to the twins, choice to the solo? Depends on perception, knowledge, teacher and student. As an educator, my perception is kids have varied interests. Their knowledge is all over the place. As teacher and student I teach to the lowest denominator so everyone can get on the field if need be, and get deep into the WHY with a couple of kids / positions. It's HS FB, if my back up guard can never get in my scheme is useless.
|
|