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Post by silkyice on Feb 13, 2020 20:28:53 GMT -6
What I find hardest is trying to translate the new lingo after 45 years of numbers and descriptive names that described point of attack, backfield action, and blocking schemes into the same play using what seem to be unrelated words in the coded system Hard for this old guy to have to be able to take: Red, 34 Power on one to Rondo (formation), Philadelphia (Power at the 4 hole), Cowboy (ball carrier), Percy (blocking scheme), Howdy (RPO action), Sunday (cadence), on the fly under duress during a game. That's a mouthful of words, and I always wanted to KISS this part so the play could come in from the side line correctly. I guess one gets used to it........ It's like I just want to lean out of the pressbox and yell: "Just run the 5 hole!" and let it go at that! But that is just terminology and language. And if the other coaches (mainly just the oc), is experienced, you can probably just say “run to the 5 hole” on the headset and he can spit out translation. So I am wing t. Have been spread also, but have run wing t 18 years for sure. Maybe more. Belly down Have called that at different times with different coaches at different schools: 182 182down 182dog Down Dog 6g 636g G Georgia Herschel Walker Bulldogs |
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Feb 14, 2020 8:08:38 GMT -6
What I find hardest is trying to translate the new lingo after 45 years of numbers and descriptive names that described point of attack, backfield action, and blocking schemes into the same play using what seem to be unrelated words in the coded system Hard for this old guy to have to be able to take: Red, 34 Power on one to Rondo (formation), Philadelphia (Power at the 4 hole), Cowboy (ball carrier), Percy (blocking scheme), Howdy (RPO action), Sunday (cadence), on the fly under duress during a game. That's a mouthful of words, and I always wanted to KISS this part so the play could come in from the side line correctly. I guess one gets used to it........ It's like I just want to lean out of the pressbox and yell: "Just run the 5 hole!" and let it go at that! I agree on this. I see the benefits people see in not using numbers, but I think numbers are more streamlined overall. I think guys who just name things random sh!t make it much harder than it needs to be. If you do go numbers, I think it’s best to have strict classifications for them. When I coached under a very well-respected flexbone coach, he carefully constructed our run game, which was made up of NFL teams. Example: our Midline play was “RAM”. “RAM” is taught as an acronym for “Read Adjacent Man” (From QB/C). Our Triple was “paTRIot” (tri). All of our inside dive plays to the B-Back were “b” words like “Bengal”, “Bronco”, and “Bills”. Would I have rather just used “10” for ML right and “13” for ISV left? Hell yeah! But he was very organized in his terminology and we would mix in lightning-fast tempo in tight fourth quarters. I just try to keep an open mind with the words, even though I like numbers much better. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Feb 14, 2020 18:33:28 GMT -6
Obscure terminology's good if you need to hide it from the other team, like calling plays at the line or shouting them in from the sideline. Not so good if your own side has a hard job decoding it.
But I know 3 common hole numbering systems for wing T. One is the odd-even way. The others number them straight across, but one of those does it in the same "hand" direction regardless of formation, and the other flips it with the strength. And then there's Caldwell's outside-in numbering system for single wing. And several different numberings for the backs and a couple different letterings for receivers.
And sometimes coaches use jargon for the hell of it. I understand why they'll say "Mike" on the field (it saves syllables), but in writing "MLB" is shorter, "WLB" is shorter than "Will", and "SLB" is equally short as "Sam".
Still, at least in motion calls, you can't go wong with "led" and "Ryan", because they don't sound like anything else.
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Post by godandgus on Feb 20, 2020 20:44:04 GMT -6
I GREW WITH THE GAME, I WENT FROM WING T TO SPREAD WING T OPENED MY PASSING GAME. I HAVE ALL THE CONCEPTS DOWN, R4 SYSTEM TO SLICE YOU UP 28 YEARS OF EXPERIANCE. I HAD MY A$$ HANDED TO ME BY A 35 YEAR OLD WISHBONE KID!!!1 The game is big enough for us all
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Post by Coach Bennett on Feb 21, 2020 7:49:35 GMT -6
I GREW WITH THE GAME, I WENT FROM WING T TO SPREAD WING T OPENED MY PASSING GAME. I HAVE ALL THE CONCEPTS DOWN, R4 SYSTEM TO SLICE YOU UP 28 YEARS OF EXPERIANCE. I HAD MY A$$ HANDED TO ME BY A 35 YEAR OLD WISHBONE KID!!!1 The game is big enough for us all Love your honesty and ability to set your ego on the shelf...keepin' it real one day at a time! |
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Post by silkyice on Feb 21, 2020 8:39:56 GMT -6
I GREW WITH THE GAME, I WENT FROM WING T TO SPREAD WING T OPENED MY PASSING GAME. I HAVE ALL THE CONCEPTS DOWN, R4 SYSTEM TO SLICE YOU UP 28 YEARS OF EXPERIANCE. I HAD MY A$$ HANDED TO ME BY A 35 YEAR OLD WISHBONE KID!!!1 The game is big enough for us all Love your honesty and ability to set your ego on the shelf...keepin' it real one day at a time! I LOVE that he called a 35 year old a kid!!!!!! |
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Post by rsmith627 on Feb 21, 2020 10:21:03 GMT -6
Love your honesty and ability to set your ego on the shelf...keepin' it real one day at a time! I LOVE that he called a 35 year old a kid!!!!!! I'm more impressed a 35 year old knows what the Wing T is. (Sarcasm, I'm 33 and quite familiar) |
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Post by 3rdandlong on May 8, 2020 13:26:39 GMT -6
Everything is just repackaged and relabeled stuff from the old days. I still haven't had anyone be able to show me how veer-option and zone-read are not the same thing. Dive-key and pitch-key with angles on everyone else. If you defend it the same way as veer, you can stop if your athletes are approximately similar in talent. Still boils down to blocking and tackling. It’s exactly the same. Only difference is the pitch. The zone read with a bubble has a wide forward pass as the pitch component.... The QB can also decide he will throw the “pitch phase” pre-snap which isn’t necessarily the case with veer option. |
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Post by CS on May 8, 2020 18:42:00 GMT -6
I LOVE that he called a 35 year old a kid!!!!!! I'm more impressed a 35 year old knows what the Wing T is. (Sarcasm, I'm 33 and quite familiar) The 35 year old ran the wishbone which is even more shocking |
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Post by larrymoe on May 8, 2020 19:04:00 GMT -6
What I find hardest is trying to translate the new lingo after 45 years of numbers and descriptive names that described point of attack, backfield action, and blocking schemes into the same play using what seem to be unrelated words in the coded system Hard for this old guy to have to be able to take: Red, 34 Power on one to Rondo (formation), Philadelphia (Power at the 4 hole), Cowboy (ball carrier), Percy (blocking scheme), Howdy (RPO action), Sunday (cadence), on the fly under duress during a game. That's a mouthful of words, and I always wanted to KISS this part so the play could come in from the side line correctly. I guess one gets used to it........ It's like I just want to lean out of the pressbox and yell: "Just run the 5 hole!" and let it go at that! I was even simpler. White Right, Double Lead Right. We always went on 1 unless the QB called it differently. He was a smart kid. |
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Post by coachkeating33 on May 8, 2020 19:57:36 GMT -6
I played high school ball from 1966-1968. I have been coaching since 1974, so figure 45 years on the sideline. I attended a Glazier Clinic recently and listened to a coach speak with great enthusiasm about his offense. His stats were impressive, nearly 2,000 yards rushing and over 3,500 yards passing. I found that his terminology and method of play calling very difficult to follow. No numbers for holes or backs, everything had a code name, in some cases several code names ,because they were high speed- no huddle and wanted to keep the defense off balance and be able to call the same thing several ways to keep the defense from locking in. To me this required a lot of rote memorization by the kids. A clap for the cadence. O.K. I got that, a lot of colleges are doing this. His series and system was not real apparent to me. More like a situational sequence based on down and distance, along with some defensive reaction conflicts. He was running plays so fast that the new play was being called before the ball was set. How did he know what to call? He ran a combination of Jet Sweep and complimentary plays, plus a playaction , and bootleg passing game. His goal was to score 70 points per game. Every one of his plays had a read and an RPO built in. It seemed extraordinarily QB centric. (The QB was his son has signed with a major university). I was sitting thinking to myself: "I can't teach this." This seemed to be way too much for a kid to handle and this old dog can't learn these new tricks.
Now I ran triple option for a lot of years, but moved away from offenses like this, to match the talent that I had available. I found out the hard way that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers, and wishful thinking doesn't help you achieve success on the field. My young HC wants to install a system like this. He is 3-27 over the past 3 years, running a vanilla Spread. I am trying to keep him from repeating the hard lessons I learned many moons ago. I am being very resistant, because our talent is mediocre, at best. We would be much better off IMO slowing the game down instead of speeding it up, and exposing our defense due to the 3 and outs. So I am left wondering: "Am I a dinosaur, or am I a fossil?" A dinosaur is still alive, but a fossil......... hahaha I've been learning from you for 13 years now and I appreciate all your help....no I can assure the game has not passed you by....are you a little more grumpy over the last 5 years? Well I won't go there..... |
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Post by coachcb on May 14, 2020 13:59:32 GMT -6
I take no issue with the "modern spread" (in all of it's forms). I've coached in those systems, coached against them and they're just as effective as any other offense that's well coached.
What I am seeing more and more of is younger coaches that want to run those systems but have no idea what it takes to coach them. That Dig concept is simple on paper but many younger coaches don't know what I'm talking about when I ask them to explain the QB's read progression to me. They don't get it when I ask them if they want the back check-releasing or running a hot route.
Some of them might have done more research and understand what I'm talking about but underestimate the amount of time they're going to spend teaching that single concept to the kids. They have a long list of Air Raid concepts they want to run and get frustrated when I tell them to whittle it down. I like those passing concepts but I also understand that it takes time and reps to get it done right. And, I'm not going to be with them, coaching the skill players. I'll be with the OL and repping pass pro so the QB doesn't get killed.
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Post by aceback76 on May 14, 2020 14:20:28 GMT -6
I played high school ball from 1966-1968. I have been coaching since 1974, so figure 45 years on the sideline. I attended a Glazier Clinic recently and listened to a coach speak with great enthusiasm about his offense. His stats were impressive, nearly 2,000 yards rushing and over 3,500 yards passing. I found that his terminology and method of play calling very difficult to follow. No numbers for holes or backs, everything had a code name, in some cases several code names ,because they were high speed- no huddle and wanted to keep the defense off balance and be able to call the same thing several ways to keep the defense from locking in. To me this required a lot of rote memorization by the kids. A clap for the cadence. O.K. I got that, a lot of colleges are doing this. His series and system was not real apparent to me. More like a situational sequence based on down and distance, along with some defensive reaction conflicts. He was running plays so fast that the new play was being called before the ball was set. How did he know what to call? He ran a combination of Jet Sweep and complimentary plays, plus a playaction , and bootleg passing game. His goal was to score 70 points per game. Every one of his plays had a read and an RPO built in. It seemed extraordinarily QB centric. (The QB was his son has signed with a major university). I was sitting thinking to myself: "I can't teach this." This seemed to be way too much for a kid to handle and this old dog can't learn these new tricks.
Now I ran triple option for a lot of years, but moved away from offenses like this, to match the talent that I had available. I found out the hard way that you can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers, and wishful thinking doesn't help you achieve success on the field. My young HC wants to install a system like this. He is 3-27 over the past 3 years, running a vanilla Spread. I am trying to keep him from repeating the hard lessons I learned many moons ago. I am being very resistant, because our talent is mediocre, at best. We would be much better off IMO slowing the game down instead of speeding it up, and exposing our defense due to the 3 and outs. So I am left wondering: "Am I a dinosaur, or am I a fossil?" A dinosaur is still alive, but a fossil......... The game hasn't passed you by as long as you realize "YOU WIN WITH PEOPLE": Having good personnel, and knowing how to MOTIVATE your personnel, will ALWAYS beat X & O strategy! ***************************************************** Here is an older book all coaches (particularly beginners) can benefit from. This is some "legendary" stuff that has helped us quite a bit in "motivating" the team (used copies for $5 on Amazon): The Phantom Letters: Motivation at Notre Dame in the Parseghian Era by Tom Pagna In the Era of Ara (Parseghian) from 1964 through the 1974 season, a written chronicle of pre-game information, slogans, mottoes, and ideals emerged. The author was known only as the "Phantom". The letters were one or two pages, written in staccato phrases, geared to thoughts that encompassed team goals and the philosophy to win. Through the past 40 years, some of the Phantom letters have been lost, but this collection, arranged from 1966 throughout, contains the great bulk of them. "In my own opinion, psychology in football is far more important than anyone believes, including the coaches". Ara Parseghian |
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Post by bleefb on May 14, 2020 19:13:14 GMT -6
I take no issue with the "modern spread" (in all of it's forms). I've coached in those systems, coached against them and they're just as effective as any other offense that's well coached. What I am seeing more and more of is younger coaches that want to run those systems but have no idea what it takes to coach them. That Dig concept is simple on paper but many younger coaches don't know what I'm talking about when I ask them to explain the QB's read progression to me. They don't get it when I ask them if they want the back check-releasing or running a hot route. Some of them might have done more research and understand what I'm talking about but underestimate the amount of time they're going to spend teaching that single concept to the kids. They have a long list of Air Raid concepts they want to run and get frustrated when I tell them to whittle it down. I like those passing concepts but I also understand that it takes time and reps to get it done right. And, I'm not going to be with them, coaching the skill players. I'll be with the OL and repping pass pro so the QB doesn't get killed. Agreed. My experience with that type of coach is they don't even know what pass protection is other then "Block somebody!"  |
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Post by coachcb on May 15, 2020 9:41:55 GMT -6
bleefbYou make a good point and that's something else I've experienced with a handful of young coaches. They don't understand that the offense is driven by what we're doing with the OL. We can't afford to spend a large chunk of practice time each day on our pass pro when a) we don't call our five step concepts that much and b) we have other blocking schemes to rep.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 13:44:14 GMT -6
bleefbYou make a good point and that's something else I've experienced with a handful of young coaches. They don't understand that the offense is driven by what we're doing with the OL. We can't afford to spend a large chunk of practice time each day on our pass pro when a) we don't call our five step concepts that much and b) we have other blocking schemes to rep. its the hc that is the problem. They are young coaches for a reason. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 15, 2020 13:52:21 GMT -6
bleefbYou make a good point and that's something else I've experienced with a handful of young coaches. They don't understand that the offense is driven by what we're doing with the OL. We can't afford to spend a large chunk of practice time each day on our pass pro when a) we don't call our five step concepts that much and b) we have other blocking schemes to rep. its the hc that is the problem. They are young coaches for a reason. The difference, in my experience, is they don't want to learn any of that stuff. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 14:00:29 GMT -6
its the hc that is the problem. They are young coaches for a reason. The difference, in my experience, is they don't want to learn any of that stuff. if coaches are doing this in season, its the hc's fault no matter what. Either the bahavior is taught or it is allowed. If its been explained and coach didnt listen, why is he still on staff. If coach was not taught that is the hc's responsibility. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 15, 2020 17:27:03 GMT -6
The difference, in my experience, is they don't want to learn any of that stuff. if coaches are doing this in season, its the hc's fault no matter what. Either the bahavior is taught or it is allowed. If its been explained and coach didnt listen, why is he still on staff. If coach was not taught that is the hc's responsibility. Have you ever worked somewhere that a warm body is the best you can do? |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 17:44:26 GMT -6
if coaches are doing this in season, its the hc's fault no matter what. Either the bahavior is taught or it is allowed. If its been explained and coach didnt listen, why is he still on staff. If coach was not taught that is the hc's responsibility. Have you ever worked somewhere that a warm body is the best you can do? i work in a place where nobody in there right mind wants to raise a family. Teacher who are new or with issue come here. Good teachers dont come here. Good assistants dont come here. I had experience but by no means established. I dont have wife and kids. I dont live in same county i work in. Here its do as you are told or dont get paid.fullfill your responsibilities or dont get paid. I have seen it happen a dozen times easily in 4 yrs.so yes is answer to your questions. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 15, 2020 18:28:56 GMT -6
So, you can't get coaches, but just fire them if they don't do exactly as told?
Do you have anyone stay?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 20:04:04 GMT -6
So, you can't get coaches, but just fire them if they don't do exactly as told? Do you have anyone stay? I dont do it. I am not the head coach. It goes something like this though, “if I have to do your job, I dont need you.” Coaches have finished the year not heeding that warning and they are not welcome back and have a zero waiting for them in the stipen area. But if you are now one of 5 assistants, I think, now who have been their 2 yrs or more, you are doing pretty well in the stipen department. The boss is not an easy work for guy. I think his x and o’s suck, practically daddy ball level. If he knows defense, I couldn’t tell the first 3 yrs. You are going to work long weekends, you are going to hear sermons, bible thumping, cussing, on and about everything relevant to him subject there is, his practices are to long, blah blah blah.... But it doesnt take very long to realize you are working for a good man. There are 3 of us now who are in the building, not including the HC. None of us have a masters or a doctorate, which is for all intent and purpose a requirement to get into surrounding school districts. They pay less to. The county south of doesnt pay squat, and 3 of Us would all make that jump in the way of teaching. North of us, if you dont have a doctorate, dont both to apply as ordinary outsider. You either are related or somebody knows of you or you have serious academic background, which nobody anybody anywhere would accuse me of. And they dont pay. Out east, their maybe 10,000 People. Good luck finding property and civilization out there. If you are not a blood relative, dont bother. One of my fellow assistant has that job on lockdown if and when he wants it as pops is Big money person. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 15, 2020 20:21:03 GMT -6
Let me get this straight- You have guys coach the whole year and the HC just decides whether they get their stipend?
That sounds like a good way to get sued. Where's that money go?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 20:52:44 GMT -6
Let me get this straight- You have guys coach the whole year and the HC just decides whether they get their stipend? That sounds like a good way to get sued. Where's that money go? I am not sure where its going. Above my pay grade. I dont know how he does it. And its not without cause. And individual can find those meetings to be long if you have not done your job. |
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Post by coachcb on May 16, 2020 6:37:40 GMT -6
The difference, in my experience, is they don't want to learn any of that stuff. if coaches are doing this in season, its the hc's fault no matter what. Either the bahavior is taught or it is allowed. If its been explained and coach didnt listen, why is he still on staff. If coach was not taught that is the hc's responsibility.
Good Gracious!! The terribly ineffective high school HFC that wouldn't fire an AC in the middle of a season over a behind-closed-doors-argument!!!! He didn't realize things should be run like they are in the indoor youth leagues and semi-pro conferences @coachpithy coaches in when he's not bouncing from handle to handle, trolling the internet!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2020 7:27:57 GMT -6
if coaches are doing this in season, its the hc's fault no matter what. Either the bahavior is taught or it is allowed. If its been explained and coach didnt listen, why is he still on staff. If coach was not taught that is the hc's responsibility.
Good Gracious!! The terribly ineffective high school HFC that wouldn't fire an AC in the middle of a season over a behind-closed-doors-argument!!!! He didn't realize things should be run like they are in the indoor youth leagues and semi-pro conferences @coachpithy coaches in when he's not bouncing from handle to handle, trolling the internet!!!
Who said anything about mid-season firings? Talk about trolling? Might want get some assistance in finding a dictionary. Been fun. |
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locharion
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Post by locharion on May 16, 2020 8:50:44 GMT -6
Let me make this clear: the issue did not lie with the coach presenting. His presentation was fine. I just found his terminology concerning having been a even numbers right, odd numbers left guy for 45+ years. Calling plays by: Rozzie, Denver, Air Force, Ghost, Trade, Scat to give formation, shift, motion, backfield action, and point of attack made me crazy. What bothered me was my ability to process the information he was delivering. It obviously made sense to him and his kids. Obviously a very different style of football than I am used to. I don't have a problem with multiple option football, having run the SBV with Inside Veer, Outside Veer, Counter Option and Speed Option as a part of our core plays along with a predetermined series of play action passes. It is that on any given snap, he has all three things happening simultaneously. A Zone Dive, a Zone Option, and an RPO. Yeah, that's just an extension of what I was running in the 1980s. But to have every play in the offensive package have all 3 components on virtually every snap? Jet Sweep could result in a Read away from the POA, or a RPO towards the POA. My question revolves around the direction that contemporary football is headed. Is this now the new normal? It is not the new normal. There is only so much you can efficiently execute. All of those tools are out there, but you can't have a buffet style of offense or defense. If it is any consolation, if that clinic presenter gave you no indicator as to WHY those names were chosen or a word association, it is no wonder you were lost. If you were lost, imagine what your athletes would be like. Language and terminology have to be relatable and identifiable to someone for it to stick. I have a special education certification and an English certification, so I have lots of practice in teaching vocabulary. Any verbiage is the same as learning vocabulary on the older Frayer Model: What is the definition? (its meaning) What is a simplified or relatable definition someone can understand? How is it used? What is a picture or symbol that you associate with it. Rinse and repeat. Before he passed, I had the pleasure of hearing Bruce Cobleigh speak at Glazier. When he was initially throwing out his terms and explaining how he had an RPO tag with every quick game call, I was overwhelmed. Then, he taught one concept using what I just described and it stuck. "Our vertical package is Hawaii. We call it the because everyone wants to score and everyone wants to go to Hawaii. This is how we signal it (made a motion of a rainbow). We use this signal because the mascot of Hawaii is the rainbow. Kids love playing video games and know all the college teams. This is why we use college teams for many of our calls." He puts the play up on the screen (visual). "I have my box guy tell me in the first series how they will react to Jet motion. A defense doesn't have time to have more than one way to deal with it. They will blitz to the motion side, cloud it, or invert (drew each way up on the board). When we know how they will handle that motion, we can call Hawaii and tell our QB how to read it." He then went through the teaching points he gave the QB on the board and took our questions. Coach Cobleigh was a highly successful coach not just because he knew his offense inside and out, but he was a master at teaching it to his players in a way they could understand quickly. If a clinic speaker is not giving anything to help you relate to the concept it is because he is up there for his own ego and hoping to network with a next-tier coach that might be at the clinic, he is not interested in really teaching or sharing how it is taught, or he is being saved by a stud to overcompensate for his deficiencies because he just doesn't know how to teach. |
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Post by Sparkey on May 16, 2020 9:57:57 GMT -6
Absolutely hasn't passed you by. When I was a varsity OC we used code words. Kids had no problem knowing what to do because it was the language we used from day 1. Now I'm back at a lower level. We use numbers that indicate how we're blocking (zone, gap, pass, etc.), who is getting the ball, and where it's going. Both work. You just do what works for you, and that's all there is to it. We played the guy blb mentioned above. They were a smaller school than us by a lot, but were always able to hang with us using their "old school" non-facemelter approach. You must jbiw J.H. also. |
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Post by blb on May 16, 2020 10:06:24 GMT -6
Absolutely hasn't passed you by. When I was a varsity OC we used code words. Kids had no problem knowing what to do because it was the language we used from day 1. Now I'm back at a lower level. We use numbers that indicate how we're blocking (zone, gap, pass, etc.), who is getting the ball, and where it's going. Both work. You just do what works for you, and that's all there is to it. We played the guy blb mentioned above. They were a smaller school than us by a lot, but were always able to hang with us using their "old school" non-facemelter approach. You must jbiw J.H. also. what does "jbiw" mean? |
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Post by coachcb on May 16, 2020 10:20:52 GMT -6
locharionGreat post and you hit the nail on the head on many levels. It comes down to finding an optimal way to teach the kids the scheme and there are many facets involved in that. I've been lucky in my career and worked under some great HCs. One had a great way of handling off-season scheme discussions. When he was approached with new concepts in the spring and the summer, he asked the following questions (assuming it was something that fit within our offensive and defensive schemes): "How are we going to coach that up?" He wanted to know the ins and outs of tagging and teaching the new scheme as well as how it would fit into the practice plan. He was happy to look into new schemes if we could explain that it was an easy install that wouldn't too much time to put in. "Can we coach it up?" We had a solid staff but he also knew we had limitations. He didn't want to install something that was completely alien to the staff. He trusted in our ability to learn new schemes but he wasn't going to install something that he felt would take away from our time learning to hone our coaching skills on the existing schemes. These two questions kept everything in perspective for us.
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