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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 17, 2018 5:16:32 GMT -6
It seems absurd to say it, but does anyone here think that holding out (or more accurately saving yourself for "the next level" ) trickle down to HS ball? As crazy as it sounds, it would have sounded crazy a decade ago to have college players sit out and now we not only have players not playing in bowl games, but a potential top 5 pick and all america candidate deciding to not return to play for Ohio State after an injury this year.
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Post by fantom on Oct 17, 2018 5:26:14 GMT -6
It's already happened in basketball. In football I know of kids who were already committed who didn't make much effort to return after an injury.
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Post by dytmook on Oct 17, 2018 6:47:28 GMT -6
I think Bosa was going to be about until at least December so I understand him shutting it down. Seems like a lot of uncertainty to shut it down in HS, but stranger things have happened.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 17, 2018 6:57:55 GMT -6
No. Not enough high school players go D1 to make any impact. Yea you might have a couple kids around the entire country who may not come back after an injury, but I don't see this impacting high school ball.
We had this conversation a few years ago when McCaffery sat out the bowl game. I guess it's easy to say now, but those saying it would impact his draft status or NFL career and trickle down to high school were way off.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 17, 2018 17:44:25 GMT -6
No. Not enough high school players go D1 to make any impact. Yea you might have a couple kids around the entire country who may not come back after an injury, but I don't see this impacting high school ball. We had this conversation a few years ago when McCaffery sat out the bowl game. I guess it's easy to say now, but those saying it would impact his draft status or NFL career and trickle down to high school were way off. I have to disagree with the last statement a bit. While maybe it hasn't trickled down to high school in a few short years, we have gone from a few guys sitting out of 2nd tier bowl games to a team captain deciding to shut it down while playing on the #2 team in the country and likely playoff team.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 17, 2018 18:21:52 GMT -6
No. Not enough high school players go D1 to make any impact. Yea you might have a couple kids around the entire country who may not come back after an injury, but I don't see this impacting high school ball. We had this conversation a few years ago when McCaffery sat out the bowl game. I guess it's easy to say now, but those saying it would impact his draft status or NFL career and trickle down to high school were way off. I have to disagree with the last statement a bit. While maybe it hasn't trickled down to high school in a few short years, we have gone from a few guys sitting out of 2nd tier bowl games to a team captain deciding to shut it down while playing on the #2 team in the country and likely playoff team. Yes, I do think it will trickle down to the high school level to one extent or another. The real question is, should it be discouraged? I don't think it should be. I'm 100% on the player's side. The NCAA (and the NFL, for that matter) has made billions of dollars off these kids. The kids barely get table scraps. In fact, I would go as far to say that I hope that it continues to happen. The NCAA is a cartel and any method or tool that can weaken the power and control the NCAA wields over kids should be celebrated.
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Post by Defcord on Oct 17, 2018 18:44:29 GMT -6
Alyhough it isn’t directly the same, specialization is pretty much sitting out. Had a stud running back not play basketball one year because he had already committed in football. Had another kid not play in the football all star game because he had committed and didn’t want to mess things up before he went to camp.
I understand the question is a little different. But probably depends a lot on the prospects talents. If you are a marginal kid committed to a MAC then, I can’t imagine the school being real fond of you holding out. But if you are a freak and big time prospect it’s probably not going to hurt as much.
There are probably going to be some slappies that do it just because it’s the “cool” thing to do, but there are still kids smoking cigarettes to show they are hip...can’t save em all.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 18, 2018 7:31:10 GMT -6
I don't understand how it can trickle down when the vast majority of high school teams in the county don't even have any future scholarship players on their roster.
As a whole, I believe high school players have more pride and ties to their high school and town than they do when they are in college translating to wanting to play hs football opposed to sitting out. Those players are The Man in their school and town. Their teammate's are friends they've been playing sports with and going to school with since they were 5. They actually know most of the fans that come to their games. Big difference when these players are playing for colleges.
You're not going to see high school players sitting out, you're just not.
Someone doing it because it's the cool thing to do makes no sense. Anyone who does this in high school will be alienating himself from his friends, teammates, coaches, whoever. Unless this kid is a Lebron James type player who is a cant miss future professional, then its idiotic to even think to doit at the HS level.
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Post by coachks on Oct 18, 2018 8:36:15 GMT -6
No. Not enough high school players go D1 to make any impact. Yea you might have a couple kids around the entire country who may not come back after an injury, but I don't see this impacting high school ball. We had this conversation a few years ago when McCaffery sat out the bowl game. I guess it's easy to say now, but those saying it would impact his draft status or NFL career and trickle down to high school were way off. I have to disagree with the last statement a bit. While maybe it hasn't trickled down to high school in a few short years, we have gone from a few guys sitting out of 2nd tier bowl games to a team captain deciding to shut it down while playing on the #2 team in the country and likely playoff team. He had surgery for (what I've seen reported as) a torn "core" muscle. I don't think that is apples to apples with what McCaffery or Fournette did (sit out while perfectly healthy). I think it is much closer to what Myles Jack did in 2015.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 18, 2018 8:50:55 GMT -6
I could see it happening; a stud commits to quality college program his junior year, and then opts out of football his senior year as either a) he picked up a minor injury and doesn't want to aggravate it or b) he's "avoiding injury". The original university might still grant him the scholarship or they'll rescind it and other colleges will pick the kid up if he's good enough. It would certainly be a rare situation but it's not out of the realm of possibility. It really is the nature of recruiting; colleges will take a risk on a players with serious criminal records so it makes sense that they would take the same risk on a kid who quits his senior year.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 18, 2018 8:57:46 GMT -6
I could see it happening; a stud commits to quality college program his junior year, and then opts out of football his senior year as either a) he picked up a minor injury and doesn't want to aggravate it or b) he's "avoiding injury". The original university might still grant him the scholarship or they'll rescind it and other colleges will pick the kid up if he's good enough. It would certainly be a rare situation but it's not out of the realm of possibility. It really is the nature of recruiting; colleges will take a risk on a players with serious criminal records so it makes sense that they would take the same risk on a kid who quits his senior year. There could definitely be a player or two do this. I'm saying it wont become common.
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Post by pitt1980 on Oct 18, 2018 10:30:15 GMT -6
I have to disagree with the last statement a bit. While maybe it hasn't trickled down to high school in a few short years, we have gone from a few guys sitting out of 2nd tier bowl games to a team captain deciding to shut it down while playing on the #2 team in the country and likely playoff team. Yes, I do think it will trickle down to the high school level to one extent or another. The real question is, should it be discouraged? I don't think it should be. I'm 100% on the player's side. The NCAA (and the NFL, for that matter) has made billions of dollars off these kids. The kids barely get table scraps. In fact, I would go as far to say that I hope that it continues to happen. The NCAA is a cartel and any method or tool that can weaken the power and control the NCAA wields over kids should be celebrated. I think someone here brought this up in a thread we had back when McCaffrey and Fournette sat out bowl games, I thought it was an interesting thought, so I'll steal it:
"How do you feel if an NFL player sat out the playoff because he didn't want to get hurt before free agency? Would you feel the same way? Would you think that's different? Why?"
I'm not actually prejudging this question, I think its fair to have several different opinions about this.
Its actually really weird the way the lottery winner like rewards around professional athletics affect the way we think about it.
I don't begrudge people from coming into a lot of money, I don't begrudge people from being risk averse when faced with the possibility of missing out on a lot of money.
I do strongly dislike the sort of implied notion here, that if athletic accomplishment isn't closely coupled with a lottery like reward it isn't as meaningful as when it is coupled with that reward
(sort of related, I also strongly dislike the idea that when someone has an athletic accomplishment that isn't followed by the lottery reward, that they've been cheated out of something)
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Post by newhope on Oct 18, 2018 10:44:03 GMT -6
It already has in some areas. You're in a time where lots of kids and parents are only concerned about their offers. They could care less about the team
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Post by coachcb on Oct 18, 2018 10:57:17 GMT -6
I could see it happening; a stud commits to quality college program his junior year, and then opts out of football his senior year as either a) he picked up a minor injury and doesn't want to aggravate it or b) he's "avoiding injury". The original university might still grant him the scholarship or they'll rescind it and other colleges will pick the kid up if he's good enough. It would certainly be a rare situation but it's not out of the realm of possibility. It really is the nature of recruiting; colleges will take a risk on a players with serious criminal records so it makes sense that they would take the same risk on a kid who quits his senior year. There could definitely be a player or two do this. I'm saying it wont become common. It really depends on the situation that sets the precedence. It could be a circus if a five-star recruit sits is recruited by a top tier FBS school and still ends up with FBS scholarship somehow. I imagine we would see every other four to five-star recruit doing the same thing until universities stopped recruiting them.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 18, 2018 11:01:13 GMT -6
There could definitely be a player or two do this. I'm saying it wont become common. It really depends on the situation that sets the precedence. It could be a circus if a five-star recruit sits is recruited by a top tier FBS school and still ends up with FBS scholarship somehow. I imagine we would see every other four to five-star recruit doing the same thing until universities stopped recruiting them. Or the players start to find out not playing football for almost 2 years hurts their game and they end up being an average athlete that doesn't get drafted.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 18, 2018 16:27:35 GMT -6
Yes, I do think it will trickle down to the high school level to one extent or another. The real question is, should it be discouraged? I don't think it should be. I'm 100% on the player's side. The NCAA (and the NFL, for that matter) has made billions of dollars off these kids. The kids barely get table scraps. In fact, I would go as far to say that I hope that it continues to happen. The NCAA is a cartel and any method or tool that can weaken the power and control the NCAA wields over kids should be celebrated. I think someone here brought this up in a thread we had back when McCaffrey and Fournette sat out bowl games, I thought it was an interesting thought, so I'll steal it:
"How do you feel if an NFL player sat out the playoff because he didn't want to get hurt before free agency? Would you feel the same way? Would you think that's different? Why?"
I'm not actually prejudging this question, I think its fair to have several different opinions about this.
Its actually really weird the way the lottery winner like rewards around professional athletics affect the way we think about it.
I don't begrudge people from coming into a lot of money, I don't begrudge people from being risk averse when faced with the possibility of missing out on a lot of money.
I do strongly dislike the sort of implied notion here, that if athletic accomplishment isn't closely coupled with a lottery like reward it isn't as meaningful as when it is coupled with that reward
(sort of related, I also strongly dislike the idea that when someone has an athletic accomplishment that isn't followed by the lottery reward, that they've been cheated out of something) My answer, in pretty much every case, is that I support the player doing whatever will result in getting the most money for himself.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 18, 2018 16:32:24 GMT -6
It already has in some areas. You're in a time where lots of kids and parents are only concerned about their offers. They could care less about the team But the coaches (at least college coaches) really don't care about the team, either. How many times does a coach pull up stakes to take a better paying or higher profile job?
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2018 20:24:31 GMT -6
I don't understand how it can trickle down when the vast majority of high school teams in the county don't even have any future scholarship players on their roster. As a whole, I believe high school players have more pride and ties to their high school and town than they do when they are in college translating to wanting to play hs football opposed to sitting out. Those players are The Man in their school and town. Their teammate's are friends they've been playing sports with and going to school with since they were 5. They actually know most of the fans that come to their games. Big difference when these players are playing for colleges. You're not going to see high school players sitting out, you're just not. Someone doing it because it's the cool thing to do makes no sense. Anyone who does this in high school will be alienating himself from his friends, teammates, coaches, whoever. Unless this kid is a Lebron James type player who is a cant miss future professional, then its idiotic to even think to doit at the HS level. Actually, it is statistically more likely that a HS kid receive a scholarship offer than it is for a college kid to be drafted. Also, I will have to categorically disagree with you if you don't think that Nick Bosa is absolutely "The Man" in Columbus Ohio, and on a far far taller pedestal than any HS great is in his area. The players spend a great deal more time together with each other at the College level than their HS level, and my personal experience seems to be that the bonds between college teamates are stronger than HS. Again, the key here is that Bosa is saying in October "Nope, shuttin it down" when his team is a favorite to be in the college football playoff.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Oct 18, 2018 21:42:16 GMT -6
One example of the opposite side of this that will probably brighten your days (it didn't brighten mine, I was on the wrong end of this). There is a team in our league with a big time Power 5 commit at QB, kid basically had his choice of colleges.
Anyway he suffered a rib injury, and it was being reported that he may miss a long time and possibly the rest of his senior season. People were speculating that maybe his college coach would exert some influence since the kid is going to graduate in December and enroll early.
So as it turns out, the kid missed one non league game, and came back and caved our defense's heads in in what was basically a league championship game, and has played every week since.
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Post by spartan on Oct 18, 2018 22:18:04 GMT -6
Been happening for years. Had a kid call it a day a couple years ago after week 3 with a sore knee. Tried to come back in semis when he saw we could win it all. Conditioned him for two weeks didn't let him take a snap. His Dad was PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by 19delta on Oct 18, 2018 23:04:34 GMT -6
Again, the key here is that Bosa is saying in October "Nope, shuttin it down" when his team is a favorite to be in the college football playoff. Do you think Bosa is wrong for doing so? Or that Bosa's decision to shut it down reflects poorly on his character?
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Post by 19delta on Oct 18, 2018 23:13:36 GMT -6
Been happening for years. Had a kid call it a day a couple years ago after week 3 with a sore knee. Tried to come back in semis when he saw we could win it all. Conditioned him for two weeks didn't let him take a snap. His Dad was PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What was the kid doing the whole time that he was injured? Week 4 to the semis is what...over 2 months? Was the kid still around the team all that time he was hurt or did he just stop coming to practice for 9 weeks and then show up the week of semis and say, "OK. Coach. I'm back and ready to play."? I'm assuming that, after having not played for such a long time, that he wasn't the best player at his position any more. So why was his dad angry? Did dad think that his son should just get his spot back?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2018 23:23:27 GMT -6
It seems absurd to say it, but does anyone here think that holding out (or more accurately saving yourself for "the next level" ) trickle down to HS ball? As crazy as it sounds, it would have sounded crazy a decade ago to have college players sit out and now we not only have players not playing in bowl games, but a potential top 5 pick and all america candidate deciding to not return to play for Ohio State after an injury this year. There have already been some examples of highly recruited HS players doing this. They get to midseason of their senior year or get a minor injury and decide they're going to quit and start training for college. If I recall correctly, some of the top recruits have been told to "shut it down and save your body" in HS games at least as far back as Bryce Brown a decade ago. They can get away with this because if they already have enough highlights and all the measurables, colleges will still fight over them.
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Post by newhope on Oct 19, 2018 6:06:01 GMT -6
It already has in some areas. You're in a time where lots of kids and parents are only concerned about their offers. They could care less about the team But the coaches (at least college coaches) really don't care about the team, either. How many times does a coach pull up stakes to take a better paying or higher profile job? Coaches are concerned about the team as long as they are part of the team. They're not sitting out games waiting on the next opportunity. This isn't about moving from team to team--it's about not finishing the season.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 19, 2018 8:03:33 GMT -6
I don't understand how it can trickle down when the vast majority of high school teams in the county don't even have any future scholarship players on their roster. As a whole, I believe high school players have more pride and ties to their high school and town than they do when they are in college translating to wanting to play hs football opposed to sitting out. Those players are The Man in their school and town. Their teammate's are friends they've been playing sports with and going to school with since they were 5. They actually know most of the fans that come to their games. Big difference when these players are playing for colleges. You're not going to see high school players sitting out, you're just not. Someone doing it because it's the cool thing to do makes no sense. Anyone who does this in high school will be alienating himself from his friends, teammates, coaches, whoever. Unless this kid is a Lebron James type player who is a cant miss future professional, then its idiotic to even think to doit at the HS level. Actually, it is statistically more likely that a HS kid receive a scholarship offer than it is for a college kid to be drafted. Also, I will have to categorically disagree with you if you don't think that Nick Bosa is absolutely "The Man" in Columbus Ohio, and on a far far taller pedestal than any HS great is in his area. The players spend a great deal more time together with each other at the College level than their HS level, and my personal experience seems to be that the bonds between college teamates are stronger than HS. Again, the key here is that Bosa is saying in October "Nope, shuttin it down" when his team is a favorite to be in the college football playoff. There's a big difference between Bosa who is guaranteed millions compared to a HS kid whose career will most likely end when his college career is over. .09% of high school seniors make the NFL. Just think about that. If a HS kid sits out then he's getting bad advice. The odds of him regretting it 10 years later is extremely high.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 19, 2018 8:27:11 GMT -6
The U.S. Army All-American bowl has 100 of the best HS football players in the country participate. Roughly 30% of those players make the NFL. I understand the pipe dream some of these players have, but sitting out in high school makes zero sense to me unless you're a freak of nature on the level of Tua Tagovailoa. He's hurt right now, maybe he should take the rest of this season and next season off to prepare for the draft.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 19, 2018 9:39:47 GMT -6
Although I disagree with Bosa on an ideological level, I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing if I were in his shoes. If you pit the prospect of winning a national FBS title against being set for life financially at 21-22 years old, the money is going to win. It's just the nature of the relationship between high level college athletics and professional sports at this point. If these guys are good enough, they'll walk away with tens of millions of dollars and never take an NFL snap.
It'd be easy for me to pump my chest and say "He's letting his team down! Look at what is happening to the dignity of athletics!!". But, it's pretty safe to say that those values aren't a factor in top tier athletics anymore. Good Lord, we talk on this board about booting kids with bad attitudes all the time and then I read an article where Urban Meyer kept a Hernandez in his program for five years, turned him into a top NFL prospect and then told NFL scouts to stay away from him. I read another article where former NFL teammates talk about him being a violent-weirdo but Belichick (a coach known for his "no-bullchit" policies) kept him around as well.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 19, 2018 11:55:06 GMT -6
Actually, it is statistically more likely that a HS kid receive a scholarship offer than it is for a college kid to be drafted. Also, I will have to categorically disagree with you if you don't think that Nick Bosa is absolutely "The Man" in Columbus Ohio, and on a far far taller pedestal than any HS great is in his area. The players spend a great deal more time together with each other at the College level than their HS level, and my personal experience seems to be that the bonds between college teamates are stronger than HS. Again, the key here is that Bosa is saying in October "Nope, shuttin it down" when his team is a favorite to be in the college football playoff. There's a big difference between Bosa who is guaranteed millions compared to a HS kid whose career will most likely end when his college career is over. .09% of high school seniors make the NFL. Just think about that. If a HS kid sits out then he's getting bad advice. The odds of him regretting it 10 years later is extremely high. You are making a 2 level jump. I am comparing sitting out of HS for the sake of college ball, not professional. I don't think anyone is suggesting that a trend of kids shutting themselves down in HS to protect their NFL status will occur. But kids with multiple D1 offers and who have been recruited for the past 2/3 seasons shutting it down to "prepare" for their college career? That is a different animal.
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Post by mnike23 on Oct 19, 2018 12:03:44 GMT -6
just had 1 that basically has shut it down, as he is a basketball stud. shoulder hurt, but not so bad he couldnt play, knee "hurts" so hes sitting for 2 weeks, per doctors instruction.... we have 3 games left.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2018 13:26:46 GMT -6
Actually, it is statistically more likely that a HS kid receive a scholarship offer than it is for a college kid to be drafted. Also, I will have to categorically disagree with you if you don't think that Nick Bosa is absolutely "The Man" in Columbus Ohio, and on a far far taller pedestal than any HS great is in his area. The players spend a great deal more time together with each other at the College level than their HS level, and my personal experience seems to be that the bonds between college teamates are stronger than HS. Again, the key here is that Bosa is saying in October "Nope, shuttin it down" when his team is a favorite to be in the college football playoff. There's a big difference between Bosa who is guaranteed millions compared to a HS kid whose career will most likely end when his college career is over. .09% of high school seniors make the NFL. Just think about that. If a HS kid sits out then he's getting bad advice. The odds of him regretting it 10 years later is extremely high. There is a huge difference... but how many highly recruited kids who are going D1 think they're going to be the next Bosa? I'd wager that's most of them. I know that I've coached several delusional kids who are certain they're going to have NFL careers when they are the epitome of "mediocre" and are getting zero offers. With those players in mind, think of the kid who's actually good enough to get multiple D1 offers, is used to being the biggest stud on the field every week for years, and has the whole community (and recruiters) putting him on a pedestal and telling him how great he is. Why wouldn't that kid think he's going to the NFL and start planning his "career" with that in mind and emulating the other prospects like Bosa?
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