mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 220
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Post by mc140 on Nov 19, 2016 23:22:57 GMT -6
Fenwick QB throws ball away as time expires on 4th down. Ruled intentional grounding and Plainfield North given one untimed down in which they kick game tying field goal. Very similar to OSU game earlier in season. I may have been arrested if I was the coach. The Fenwick coach new the rule, new the refs were wrong but nothing he could do about. Oh and these guys are scheduled to ref one of the state games next weekend.
November 18, 2016
IHSA Executive Director Craig Anderson released the following statement on Saturday, November 19, 2016, on the conclusion of the IHSA Class 7A Football Semifinal game between Fenwick High School and Plainfield North High School:
“On the final play of the fourth quarter in today’s IHSA Class 7A Semifinal Football game between Fenwick High School and Plainfield North High School, an error was made by the officiating crew, which resulted in an untimed down being awarded to Plainfield North.
On the untimed down, Plainfield North tied the contest with a field goal and then went on to win the game in overtime. Per Rule 3-3-4 in the 2016 NFHS Football Rules Book, the game should have concluded on the final play of regulation and the untimed down should not have been awarded.
IHSA by-law 6.033 clearly states that “the decisions of game officials shall be final; protests against the decision of a game official shall not be reviewed by the Board of Directors.”
Given that rule, the contest result shall remain final with Plainfield North advancing to the Class 7A State Championship.
On behalf of the IHSA, I express my sincerest apologies to Coach Nudo and his players and coaching staff, as well as to the entire Fenwick administration and community. I understand that it will be difficult to find a silver lining in this particular situation, but I do hope that Fenwick takes pride in all they accomplished today and this season.
There is no doubt that the crew assigned to officiate this contest by the IHSA should have known this rule and they were forthcoming about the error in conversations after the game. The crew also understands that there will be an assessment of their performance and consequences from the IHSA as a result of this error.
We will continue to be proactive in our efforts to educate our officials, while also working with our membership and Board of Directors, of which Fenwick Principal Peter Groom is a valued member, to evaluate IHSA by-laws and policy related to officiating.”
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Nov 19, 2016 23:32:57 GMT -6
Fenwick QB throws ball away as time expires on 4th down. Ruled intentional grounding and Plainfield North given one untimed down in which they kick game tying field goal. Very similar to OSU game earlier in season. I may have been arrested if I was the coach. The Fenwick coach new the rule, new the refs were wrong but nothing he could do about. Oh and these guys are scheduled to ref one of the state games next weekend.
November 18, 2016
IHSA Executive Director Craig Anderson released the following statement on Saturday, November 19, 2016, on the conclusion of the IHSA Class 7A Football Semifinal game between Fenwick High School and Plainfield North High School:
“On the final play of the fourth quarter in today’s IHSA Class 7A Semifinal Football game between Fenwick High School and Plainfield North High School, an error was made by the officiating crew, which resulted in an untimed down being awarded to Plainfield North.
On the untimed down, Plainfield North tied the contest with a field goal and then went on to win the game in overtime. Per Rule 3-3-4 in the 2016 NFHS Football Rules Book, the game should have concluded on the final play of regulation and the untimed down should not have been awarded.
IHSA by-law 6.033 clearly states that “the decisions of game officials shall be final; protests against the decision of a game official shall not be reviewed by the Board of Directors.”
Given that rule, the contest result shall remain final with Plainfield North advancing to the Class 7A State Championship.
On behalf of the IHSA, I express my sincerest apologies to Coach Nudo and his players and coaching staff, as well as to the entire Fenwick administration and community. I understand that it will be difficult to find a silver lining in this particular situation, but I do hope that Fenwick takes pride in all they accomplished today and this season.There is no doubt that the crew assigned to officiate this contest by the IHSA should have known this rule and they were forthcoming about the error in conversations after the game. The crew also understands that there will be an assessment of their performance and consequences from the IHSA as a result of this error. We will continue to be proactive in our efforts to educate our officials, while also working with our membership and Board of Directors, of which Fenwick Principal Peter Groom is a valued member, to evaluate IHSA by-laws and policy related to officiating.” atrocious |
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Post by 19delta on Nov 20, 2016 6:14:55 GMT -6
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Post by freezeoption on Nov 20, 2016 6:49:36 GMT -6
throwing the ball away is a penalty unless elgible rec. in the area
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Post by 19delta on Nov 20, 2016 7:40:41 GMT -6
throwing the ball away is a penalty unless elgible rec. in the area That's not the issue. The game should have been over after the 4th down play because time had expired. |
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 20, 2016 9:56:26 GMT -6
That's a rule that if you don't know with 100% certainty you keep both teams on the field and call the IHSA.
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Post by freezeoption on Nov 20, 2016 10:56:45 GMT -6
yes, game should have been done, game can end on a offensive penalty
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Post by silkyice on Nov 20, 2016 12:34:49 GMT -6
yes, game should have been done, game can end on a offensive penalty Not arguing this situation one way or another. Just making a point that is a bad rule. Theoretically, a team could have the lead in the 4th q and just tackle everyone on defense repeatedly until time expired. I know, i know, there is no way that could happen for 12 minutes. Just making a stupid point on why it is a bad rule. Why differentiate between game ending or not on offensive or defensive penalty? A team should not get an advantage on a penalty. |
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Post by bigmoot on Nov 20, 2016 13:43:31 GMT -6
yes, game should have been done, game can end on a offensive penalty Not arguing this situation one way or another. Just making a point that is a bad rule. Theoretically, a team could have the lead in the 4th q and just tackle everyone on defense repeatedly until time expired. I know, i know, there is no way that could happen for 12 minutes. Just making a stupid point on why it is a bad rule. Why differentiate between game ending or not on offensive or defensive penalty? A team should not get an advantage on a penalty. Like the clock restarting after OL jumps offsides. Ran out the clock of a jv game a few years ago. Had put the ERW's and they committed 4 penalties in a row. Ran 2 plays in 2:30 minutes. |
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 20, 2016 14:13:47 GMT -6
Not arguing this situation one way or another. Just making a point that is a bad rule. Theoretically, a team could have the lead in the 4th q and just tackle everyone on defense repeatedly until time expired. I know, i know, there is no way that could happen for 12 minutes. Just making a stupid point on why it is a bad rule. Why differentiate between game ending or not on offensive or defensive penalty? A team should not get an advantage on a penalty. Like the clock restarting after OL jumps offsides. Ran out the clock of a jv game a few years ago. Had put the ERW's and they committed 4 penalties in a row. Ran 2 plays in 2:30 minutes. The ref can choose not to start the clock until the snap if he feels the offense is doing it to gain an advantage. |
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Post by ogre5530 on Nov 21, 2016 9:26:45 GMT -6
I was following this as a coach in Illinois via Twitter Saturday night. What a terrible way to go out for Fenwick! The IHSA should be utterly embarrassed!
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Post by mnike23 on Nov 21, 2016 10:26:22 GMT -6
zeros on the clock, why did he throw the ball away? why not just fall down? or take a knee or run out the back of the endzone or take the sack. if you dont have to throw it, dont!!!! what if it was tipped and went for 6 the other way.
unfortunate for them.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2016 19:33:38 GMT -6
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Post by dubber on Nov 21, 2016 20:30:01 GMT -6
No leg to stand on, but maybe it will make them feel better? My junior year in the playoffs, we go into overtime, our ball first. On 4th down we go to kick the field goal and they block it. And then they pick it up and start running....the officials just go with it. They run to the other end zone, they call touchdown game over. One of our coaches is screaming at them as they are leaving the field, nothing done. It wasn't until they pulled the rule book out in the officials locker room that they realized their mistake. From personal experience, I know there is only one thing a man can do: From time to time drink a few too many, and get too loud talking about the SOBs that stole it from you. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 21:45:16 GMT -6
That is brutal, those officials should be dropped down to youth football league.
This year in our JV championship game we had 4th and 1 on the opponent's 35 yard line. Ran a dive which got stuffed but our fullback fights to the stick. They spot the ball and then signal first down for the opponent. I ask for a measurement, which they do, and the ball is literally halfway past the stick. They signal first down for the opposing team and I thought they were just confused. The entire officiating crew told me that the ENTIRE ball has to be past. I just about came uncorked. Opposing HC just stood there grinning like a friggin' Cheshire cat while his team celebrated. Bad move, that was the catalyst that my kids needed to go nuclear on them and just destroy them. It was strange, they had always been a very knowledgeable crew. When I spoke to them after they were emphatic I was wrong.
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 22, 2016 10:25:10 GMT -6
Maybe the best thing that can happen here is East St. Louis, the opponent for whichever team shows up just lays an ass whippin of monumental proportions down showing that maybe it doesn't matter who won that other game.
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 22, 2016 10:33:35 GMT -6
No leg to stand on, but maybe it will make them feel better? In the legal realm, it all depends on the venue and the judge that sits behind the bench. |
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Post by veerfan on Nov 23, 2016 7:52:24 GMT -6
zeros on the clock, why did he throw the ball away? why not just fall down? or take a knee or run out the back of the endzone or take the sack. if you dont have to throw it, dont!!!! what if it was tipped and went for 6 the other way. unfortunate for them. This. The coach is a former arena league coach who says he's won a lot of games by throwing the ball into the stands at the end of the game. Either way, take a knee when the clock stops and the officials will protect the QB. I agree that the penalty is incorrect, but it shouldn't have even been an issue. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Nov 23, 2016 8:05:07 GMT -6
When did he throw the ball in relation to the clock? If he threw it at 00 or after, then you are all correct. But if he let it go with 2-3 seconds left, then taking a knee wouldn't have worked, as the clock would stop.
The longer the ball is in your possession, the longer the ball is in danger of being stripped, or the QB falling down and stopping the clock with time left, etc. and so forth.
Throw a ball as high as you can and WAY out of bounds, you kill 3 or 4 seconds or whatever that the ball is in the air. That's 3 or 4 seconds that nothing else bad can happen on the ground, you get the ball out of danger more quickly than any of the other options.
And let's face it, when you're coming up with your strategy, the officials completely blowing the call isn't really something you can plan for. Similar to that snap swipe in the other thread - how do you take into account officials who don't know the rules?
And I realize you don't want to put the game in the hands of the officials, but you can't really control that. So you have your kid kneel, he gets hit as he takes a knee (let's even say he's on the ground), coughs up the ball, returned for a TD, and you're just as screwed (at which point, someone on here would then say "should have just thrown the ball as far as he could out of bounds). :-)
Yes you have to try to plan for/account for things you cannot control, but by definition those are things you cannot control. And first on that list would be officials who don't know the rules, or even just miss a call.
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Post by veerfan on Nov 23, 2016 8:13:33 GMT -6
When did he throw the ball in relation to the clock? If he threw it at 00 or after, then you are all correct. But if he let it go with 2-3 seconds left, then taking a knee wouldn't have worked, as the clock would stop. The longer the ball is in your possession, the longer the ball is in danger of being stripped, or the QB falling down and stopping the clock with time left, etc. and so forth. Throw a ball as high as you can and WAY out of bounds, you kill 3 or 4 seconds or whatever that the ball is in the air. That's 3 or 4 seconds that nothing else bad can happen on the ground, you get the ball out of danger more quickly than any of the other options. And let's face it, when you're coming up with your strategy, the officials completely blowing the call isn't really something you can plan for. Similar to that snap swipe in the other thread - how do you take into account officials who don't know the rules? And I realize you don't want to put the game in the hands of the officials, but you can't really control that. So you have your kid kneel, he gets hit as he takes a knee (let's even say he's on the ground), coughs up the ball, returned for a TD, and you're just as screwed (at which point, someone on here would then say "should have just thrown the ball as far as he could out of bounds). :-) Yes you have to try to plan for/account for things you cannot control, but by definition those are things you cannot control. And first on that list would be officials who don't know the rules, or even just miss a call. According to the article, the QB waited for the clock to expire then he heaved it downfield where no one was. Game was over, take a knee or fall down. Throw over a receiver standing next to the sideline. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Nov 23, 2016 8:31:55 GMT -6
When did he throw the ball in relation to the clock? If he threw it at 00 or after, then you are all correct. But if he let it go with 2-3 seconds left, then taking a knee wouldn't have worked, as the clock would stop. According to the article, the QB waited for the clock to expire then he heaved it downfield where no one was. Game was over, take a knee or fall down. Throw over a receiver standing next to the sideline. Well then never mind if that's the case. :-) Although, it's still somewhat debatable - just say the QB drops to the ground and the ball pops out when he hits the ground. Refs swallow the whistle, D picks it up and runs it back. Team is still screwed. QB takes a knee and the defender comes in - late - hits him, ball pops out, returned...still screwed. I guess my point is that it's hard to engage hindsight when you have to factor in the variable of incompetent officiating, that can strike no matter what you do... |
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Post by blb on Nov 23, 2016 8:45:24 GMT -6
QB takes a knee and the defender comes in - late - hits him, ball pops out, returned...still screwed.
Ball is dead as soon as QB's knee touches ground.
Bottom line: Schools joined IHSA to compete in state tournaments and by doing so agreed to rules that state referees' decisions are final and will not be overturned by Board of Directors.
The rest is moot.
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Post by bird0660 on Nov 23, 2016 8:48:34 GMT -6
This same think happened to me my junior year. It was awful. Heartbreaking. Refs just went silent. The NJSIAA ruled they wouldnt overturn the refs decision. However, only 1 ref made the decision since the others thought the game was over and walked off the field.
Here is the video. It sucks bc its from 99 but the last 5 minutes show alot. Still not over this 17 years later.
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Post by veerfan on Nov 23, 2016 9:15:51 GMT -6
This same think happened to me my junior year. It was awful. Heartbreaking. Refs just went silent. The NJSIAA ruled they wouldnt overturn the refs decision. However, only 1 ref made the decision since the others thought the game was over and walked off the field. Here is the video. It sucks bc its from 99 but the last 5 minutes show alot. Still not over this 17 years later. A LOT of video of the cheerleaders LOL. Did he have his hand going forward? It's hard to see on the video. I sure don't miss the days of the VHS recorders and the constant movement! |
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Post by freezeoption on Nov 23, 2016 9:17:40 GMT -6
clock don't stop because qb knees hit the ground
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Post by jrk5150 on Nov 23, 2016 9:24:54 GMT -6
QB takes a knee and the defender comes in - late - hits him, ball pops out, returned...still screwed.
Ball is dead as soon as QB's knee touches ground.
Bottom line: Schools joined IHSA to compete in state tournaments and by doing so agreed to rules that state referees' decisions are final and will not be overturned by Board of Directors.
The rest is moot.
Just like the game was over once the ball was dead out of bounds? Except the refs apparently didn't agree and awarded a free play. Just like maybe they don't see the knee on the ground on my example... Is it far fetched? Of course, but so is awarding a free down out of the blue like this. 99 times out of 100 or more the refs walk off the field as soon as that ball flies out of bounds. My point is/was that you cannot control the refereeing competence, so saying "you should have done..." isn't really all that helpful. In almost every scenario you can still lose if the refs simply screw it up like they did here. |
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Post by blb on Nov 23, 2016 9:25:23 GMT -6
clock don't stop because qb knees hit the ground
In this case it would have - it was 4th Down.
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Post by bird0660 on Nov 23, 2016 9:28:11 GMT -6
This same think happened to me my junior year. It was awful. Heartbreaking. Refs just went silent. The NJSIAA ruled they wouldnt overturn the refs decision. However, only 1 ref made the decision since the others thought the game was over and walked off the field. Here is the video. It sucks bc its from 99 but the last 5 minutes show alot. Still not over this 17 years later. A LOT of video of the cheerleaders LOL. Did he have his hand going forward? It's hard to see on the video. I sure don't miss the days of the VHS recorders and the constant movement! Your right it was pretty terrible film. A long way from Hudl. Pretty sure it was parent film that ended up on youtube. I believe it was a fumble, but what the film doesnt show was refs blowing the play dead (whether it was supposed to be or not.) thats what kicked off the celebration. |
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Post by dubber on Nov 23, 2016 9:28:52 GMT -6
This same think happened to me my junior year. It was awful. Heartbreaking. Refs just went silent. The NJSIAA ruled they wouldnt overturn the refs decision. However, only 1 ref made the decision since the others thought the game was over and walked off the field. Here is the video. It sucks bc its from 99 but the last 5 minutes show alot. Still not over this 17 years later. Hard to tell from the video......what SHOULD have been the call? Also, those coaches had some SWEET windbreaker get ups...... |
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Post by 3rdandlong on Nov 23, 2016 10:26:23 GMT -6
This is a Great time for kids to learn that life isn't always fair. As much as I love football, I do not think a game should be decided by a court of law.
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