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Post by bird0660 on Nov 23, 2016 10:39:18 GMT -6
This same think happened to me my junior year. It was awful. Heartbreaking. Refs just went silent. The NJSIAA ruled they wouldnt overturn the refs decision. However, only 1 ref made the decision since the others thought the game was over and walked off the field. Here is the video. It sucks bc its from 99 but the last 5 minutes show alot. Still not over this 17 years later. Hard to tell from the video......what SHOULD have been the call? Also, those coaches had some SWEET windbreaker get ups...... The late 90s in Jersey were a pretty SWEET time! |
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Post by tothehouse on Nov 23, 2016 11:00:24 GMT -6
There was video online...of a team losing a playoff game because the ref signaled that a FG did NOT go through the uprights. Now...it could be an issue if the ball went over one of the goal posts...but the ball went through the middle...and it wasn't close to being short. I looked for the video, but it doesn't exist anymore. Coaches were going ape {censored}. The video I saw was from the end zone angle...clearly showing the ball going through.
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Post by blb on Nov 23, 2016 11:01:52 GMT -6
There was video online...of a team losing a playoff game because the ref signaled that a FG did NOT go through the uprights. Now...it could be an issue if the ball went over one of the goal posts...but the ball went through the middle...and it wasn't close to being short. I looked for the video, but it doesn't exist anymore. Coaches were going ape {censored}. The video I saw was from the end zone angle...clearly showing the ball going through.
Maybe the kick was "too high"?
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Post by blb on Nov 23, 2016 11:24:00 GMT -6
UPDATE: The judge ruled in favor of Plainfield-North saying that while Fenwick had suffered "irreparable harm," they did not prove the IHSA had applied their rules "inconsistently."
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Post by veerfan on Nov 23, 2016 13:08:29 GMT -6
Judge ruled in favor of the IHSA. The result stays the same and Fenwick is left wondering "what if." Personally, I don't think anyone really felt that they would reverse it.
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Nov 23, 2016 14:07:56 GMT -6
There was video online...of a team losing a playoff game because the ref signaled that a FG did NOT go through the uprights. Now...it could be an issue if the ball went over one of the goal posts...but the ball went through the middle...and it wasn't close to being short. I looked for the video, but it doesn't exist anymore. Coaches were going ape {censored}. The video I saw was from the end zone angle...clearly showing the ball going through. 2006 Sacred Heart Prep vs The King's Academy... Horrible - the elderly ref (might have been a female if memory serves me right...) was not in position and blew it... blogs.mercurynews.com/hssports/2006/11/09/should-kings-give-game-away/ |
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Post by tothehouse on Nov 23, 2016 14:19:29 GMT -6
That wasn't the one...but that might have been worse. My gawd.
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Post by bignose on Nov 23, 2016 15:47:11 GMT -6
zeros on the clock, why did he throw the ball away? why not just fall down? or take a knee or run out the back of the endzone or take the sack. if you dont have to throw it, dont!!!! what if it was tipped and went for 6 the other way. unfortunate for them. While I do not condone the terrible officiating, (there is no excuse for not knowing or misinterpreting the rules), the point is that the coach should have never allowed his team to get into the position where the officials could affect the outcome.Run around and then take a slide, step back and go to a knee slowly, or for goodness sake, take the freaking safety and win 10-9. This one is on the HC as much as it is on the officials. |
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Post by blb on Nov 23, 2016 16:09:15 GMT -6
After the Central Michigan-Oklahoma State game earlier this year -
It is unbelievable that both coaches and officials did not discuss this EXACT situation.
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Post by blb on Nov 23, 2016 16:33:13 GMT -6
zeros on the clock, why did he throw the ball away? why not just fall down? or take a knee or run out the back of the endzone or take the sack. if you dont have to throw it, dont!!!! what if it was tipped and went for 6 the other way. unfortunate for them. While I do not condone the terrible officiating, (there is no excuse for not knowing or misinterpreting the rules), the point is that the coach should have never allowed his team to get into the position where the officials could affect the outcome.Run around and then take a slide, step back and go to a knee slowly, or for goodness sake, take the freaking safety and win 10-9. This one is on the HC as much as it is on the officials.
All those options.
Or, block the FG on the illegally given untimed down.
Or, stop the touchdown or two-point play that won the game in OT.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 23, 2016 18:12:16 GMT -6
QB takes a knee and the defender comes in - late - hits him, ball pops out, returned...still screwed.
Ball is dead as soon as QB's knee touches ground. I think you missed his point. |
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Post by blb on Nov 23, 2016 18:16:38 GMT -6
Ball is dead as soon as QB's knee touches ground. I think you missed his point.
Please explain to me then.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 23, 2016 18:45:39 GMT -6
I think you missed his point.
Please explain to me then.
They lost because of a bad call. He was saying that you could take a knee and the refs could still make a bad call. He could get hit and fumble and the ref could swallow his whistle and not blow the play dead. His point is it is hard to beat yourself up as a coach and say you should have done something differently when it is a bad call that beat you. The refs could just make a bad call no matter what you do. |
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Post by blb on Nov 24, 2016 6:58:40 GMT -6
They lost because of a bad call. He was saying that you could take a knee and the refs could still make a bad call. He could get hit and fumble and the ref could swallow his whistle and not blow the play dead. His point is it is hard to beat yourself up as a coach and say you should have done something differently when it is a bad call that beat you. The refs could just make a bad call no matter what you do.
Fenwick didn't get beat because of a "bad call."
The call was correct. It was the enforcement of the penalty that was incorrect.
BIG stretch to think game officials would not blow play dead when QB's knee strikes ground and they would allow it to continue after a late hit.
And again this exact situation took place in a widely replayed and discussed FBS/D-I college game only a few months ago. Both coaches and officials should know what to do or perhaps better yet, what NOT do when faced with it.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2016 7:56:39 GMT -6
They lost because of a bad call. He was saying that you could take a knee and the refs could still make a bad call. He could get hit and fumble and the ref could swallow his whistle and not blow the play dead. His point is it is hard to beat yourself up as a coach and say you should have done something differently when it is a bad call that beat you. The refs could just make a bad call no matter what you do.
Fenwick didn't get beat because of a "bad call."
The call was correct. It was the enforcement of the penalty that was incorrect.
BIG stretch to think game officials would not blow play dead when QB's knee strikes ground and they would allow it to continue after a late hit.
And again this exact situation took place in a widely replayed and discussed FBS/D-I college game only a few months ago. Both coaches and officials should know what to do or perhaps better yet, what NOT do when faced with it.
said "QB takes a knee and the defender comes in - late - hits him, ball pops out, returned...still screwed. I guess my point is that it's hard to engage hindsight when you have to factor in the variable of incompetent officiating, that can strike no matter what you do..." You said that the ball is dead when qb knee hits the ground. I was just pointing out that it looked like you missed his point that officials can make a wrong call, or wrong enforcement, or bad call, or whatever and cost you the game no matter what you do as a coach. Thank you Captain Obvious for telling all of us that the ball is dead when his knee hits the ground. |
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Post by blb on Nov 24, 2016 8:45:03 GMT -6
Thank you Captain Obvious for telling all of us that the ball is dead when his knee hits the ground.
You're welcome - and yet jrk implies it's possible a referee in a state Semi-Final game would not know it or call it.
Quite different than incorrectly enforcing Intentional Grounding on last play of game.
And the salient point is that it was 4th DOWN, so that not only ball would be dead but clock would stop when QB knelt down, allowing North the time to kick game-tying FG. Perhaps I wasn't "obvious" enough in that.
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Post by freezeoption on Nov 24, 2016 9:26:42 GMT -6
its over now, don't matter, just like life got to move on from bad situations, now if the coach loses his job over this then I would take it farther, but now it is a life lesson
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2016 9:42:31 GMT -6
its over now, don't matter, just like life got to move on from bad situations, now if the coach loses his job over this then I would take it farther, but now it is a life lesson Why can't there be a life lesson in this over the coach losing his job? Sorry for being a smart a$$. Just to be clear, You are right, learn life lessons and move on. But that sentiment, while correct, trivializes how important this football game is. There is a lot of time, money, effort, sweat, blood, and tears that go into this game. It is important. I wouldn't love it or make it part of my life's work if it wasn't. It is just game technically, but it is also more than that. It isn't like someone just lost a causual game of Monopoly on a Tuesday afternoon after school. Is football the most important thing in the world, no. But that does not mean it isn't important. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2016 9:49:22 GMT -6
Thank you Captain Obvious for telling all of us that the ball is dead when his knee hits the ground.
You're welcome - and yet jrk implies it's possible a referee in a state Semi-Final game would not know it or call it.
Quite different than incorrectly enforcing Intentional Grounding on last play of game.
And the salient point is that it was 4th DOWN, so that not only ball would be dead but clock would stop when QB knelt down, allowing North the time to kick game-tying FG. Perhaps I wasn't "obvious" enough in that.
I am having a hard time understanding your points throughout this thread. On one hand you argue that how can the refs not know about the rule especially after the OSU fiasco early, but then on the other that there is no way that they could miss another call. You also argue that the clock stops on taking knee so that they would still be able to get a FG off, but argue that the coach should not have thrown the ball out of bounds. Just not sure what you are trying to say with your points on this thread. |
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Post by freezeoption on Nov 24, 2016 9:51:11 GMT -6
there is a life lesson from everything, yes game was important, I didn't say that it wasn't, but it is not the be all end all, yes if the coach loses his job because that would be another lesson, life is full of disappointment, might as well get use to it and learn to move on
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Post by blb on Nov 24, 2016 10:30:10 GMT -6
You're welcome - and yet jrk implies it's possible a referee in a state Semi-Final game would not know it or call it.
Quite different than incorrectly enforcing Intentional Grounding on last play of game.
And the salient point is that it was 4th DOWN, so that not only ball would be dead but clock would stop when QB knelt down, allowing North the time to kick game-tying FG. Perhaps I wasn't "obvious" enough in that.
I am having a hard time understanding your points throughout this thread. On one hand you argue that how can the refs not know about the rule especially after the OSU fiasco early, but then on the other that there is no way that they could miss another call. You also argue that the clock stops on taking knee so that they would still be able to get a FG off, but argue that the coach should not have thrown the ball out of bounds. Just not sure what you are trying to say with your points on this thread.
Guess I'm not that obvious after all.
My points are:
1. Missing a call (when ball is downed for example) is different than incorrectly assessing the penalty (i.e. loss of down, untimed down) for the call. Yes the officials should have been aware of enforcement after earlier CMU-OkState fiasco.
2. Didn't say coach shouldn't have thrown ball out of bounds, or anywhere. If I seemed to infer that, my bad.
Unfortunately for him had same result as for Mike Gundy, though.
Personally I would have had Punter run into back of end zone and kill the remaining four seconds or if need be take Safety.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2016 11:06:29 GMT -6
I don't think there is much to discuss regarding what the coach should/should not have done in anticipation to an official either making a wrong call, or enforcing the penalty incorrectly etc.
I do wonder if the IHSA has ever vacated wins from a previous season due to an ineligible player or other program violation. I think the most interesting discussion point with both this event, and the CMU Okie State game is that the governing bodies would not retroactively rule on the games in season when it counts, but the NCAA (and the IHSA I suspect) have NO problem doing so years later (the Notre Dame ruling this week for example.)
To be clear, I don't know where I stand on them reversing the game in season, and what the possible pandora's box that opens may be. I just think it is ironic that such a practice by governing bodies is deemed appropriate as a punishment years later, but never to fix a problem.
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Post by blb on Nov 24, 2016 15:39:27 GMT -6
Difference between overruling game officials at a contest and school administrators who are responsible for overseeing eligibility etc. and thus integrity of the program and fair-equitable competition?
The IHSA policies, which I assume are fairly standard nation-wide, state decisions of game officials are final and will not be reviewed by Board of Directors.
That's what schools sign up for when they join.
Eligibility violations and others of similar nature ("undue influence" or recruiting) don't have such a "statute of limitations" as it were.
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Post by spos21ram on Nov 24, 2016 16:47:28 GMT -6
Is there a reason you cannot protest a high school football game if the rules of the game were not followed or applied incorrectly? If you can in baseball, why not be able to in football?
Just like in baseball, you can only protest if the rules of the game were applied wrong. You cannot protest a judgment call
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Post by s73 on Nov 24, 2016 19:44:01 GMT -6
If I were in the losing teams position I would want it overturned. With that said, I think not overturning was the right thing to do. Otherwise, you run the risk of an appeal everytime their is a bad call.
JMO.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2016 19:46:48 GMT -6
If I were in the losing teams position I would want it overturned. With that said, I think not overturning was the right thing to do. Otherwise, you run the risk of an appeal everytime their is a bad call. JMO. I understand what you are saying, but as spos21ram points out above and has been pointed out by blb it wasn't a "bad call" it was a misapplication of a rule such that the proper application of the rule would have resulted in the end of the game. At first thought, that seems like it could be written into a rule without a bunch of unintended consequences. |
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Post by s73 on Nov 24, 2016 19:58:56 GMT -6
If I were in the losing teams position I would want it overturned. With that said, I think not overturning was the right thing to do. Otherwise, you run the risk of an appeal everytime their is a bad call. JMO. I understand what you are saying, but as spos21ram points out above and has been pointed out by blb it wasn't a "bad call" it was a misapplication of a rule such that the proper application of the rule would have resulted in the end of the game. At first thought, that seems like it could be written into a rule without a bunch of unintended consequences. I agree, but I think that change must occur after the season so as to avoid constant appeal and legal action. Again, JMO. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2016 20:08:01 GMT -6
Did anyone just see the touchdown by LSU after the strip? The guy that stripped it clearly was down. And then he got up and ran in for a TD. These are seven NCAA SEC refs. They are paid a lot of money and have received a lot of training and have been evaluated and rated to call a game at this level.
It was an abysmal call. The guy literally got up off the ground and ran in for a TD.
It was overturned. The strip stood, but the guy was rules down - duh. This wasn't even close.
But yet, there is no way 5 high school refs could ever make a mistake like this. Especially the ones who already messed up a playoff game and ended some hard working seniors careers. They would never mess up and get a judgement call wrong. Only an enforcement of penalty of a play that was already a highly publized mistake this year.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2016 20:16:45 GMT -6
Did anyone just see the touchdown by LSU after the strip? The guy that stripped it clearly was down. And then he got up and ran in for a TD. These are seven NCAA SEC refs. They are paid a lot of money and have received a lot of training and have been evaluated and rated to call a game at this level. It was an abysmal call. The guy literally got up off the ground and ran in for a TD. It was overturned. The strip stood, but the guy was rules down - duh. This wasn't even close. But yet, there is no way 5 high school refs could ever make a mistake like this. Especially the ones who already messed up a playoff game and ended some hard working seniors careers. They would never mess up and get a judgement call wrong. Only an enforcement of penalty of a play that was already a highly publized mistake this year. I am not sure what you are ranting about here. The coach's decision to throw it out of bounds? That coaches need to take into consideration the potential of an official blowing a call when they make certain decisions? That refs are all horrible and should be deported? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2016 20:19:05 GMT -6
I understand what you are saying, but as spos21ram points out above and has been pointed out by blb it wasn't a "bad call" it was a misapplication of a rule such that the proper application of the rule would have resulted in the end of the game. At first thought, that seems like it could be written into a rule without a bunch of unintended consequences. I agree, but I think that change must occur after the season so as to avoid constant appeal and legal action. Again, JMO. For clarity, are you saying that there should be no rule written like that THIS year..but can be written after the season? Or are you saying that NO application of a rule like that should be done. I agree that you couldnt make a change now. But you could amend the rules so that if this happened NEXT year, you had a new plan in place. |
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