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Post by funkfriss on Jan 14, 2016 9:55:12 GMT -6
It's difficult for me to give credibility to someone who hasn't had success in what they are talking about. Everybody has an opinion, but I tend to trust those whose opinions have been proven true and have worked over time. I understand your thinking (and I probably do the same to a degree), but let me expand on this a little. Say you have 2 coaches, both speaking about the Run&Shoot. One has won 3 state titles, the other has had mediocre success. Is the offense diminished when the 2nd coach speaks?
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 14, 2016 10:42:25 GMT -6
It's difficult for me to give credibility to someone who hasn't had success in what they are talking about. Everybody has an opinion, but I tend to trust those whose opinions have been proven true and have worked over time. I understand your thinking (and I probably do the same to a degree), but let me expand on this a little. Say you have 2 coaches, both speaking about the Run&Shoot. One has won 3 state titles, the other has had mediocre success. Is the offense diminished when the 2nd coach speaks? I don't think the offense would be diminished. But, what if when the second coach speaks he offers up unconventional advice? You may see it as an insight that you can explore later, but it would carry less weight than if the first coach had said it.
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Post by hunhdisciple on Jan 14, 2016 11:06:16 GMT -6
It all depends on how closely they resemble what I've got to work with. Attended a presentation last year and the guy is going through all of his WR techniques. Shows clips, informs us one of them is Brandon Marshall.
That's fine. Good for you. But I don't have guys that will even be playing in college.
I want someone that has won with less talent. Even if you haven't won a ton. Teach me how to do something with kids who would be better suited for doing our stats.
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Post by underdog21 on Jan 14, 2016 13:20:28 GMT -6
I listen to everyone and everything I see. I always think you can learn something from every speaker, even if its "wow I would never do that."
Over the years, I have learned that there are some really good teams that are poorly coached. They have the players that just make plays. Then there are bad to average teams that are coached really well; they just dont have the players.
I try to look for speakers who have built programs or took over a bad team and made them average to good.
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Post by underdog21 on Jan 14, 2016 13:22:52 GMT -6
I understand your thinking (and I probably do the same to a degree), but let me expand on this a little. Say you have 2 coaches, both speaking about the Run&Shoot. One has won 3 state titles, the other has had mediocre success. Is the offense diminished when the 2nd coach speaks? I don't think the offense would be diminished. But, what if when the second coach speaks he offers up unconventional advice? You may see it as an insight that you can explore later, but it would carry less weight than if the first coach had said it. I go both ways on this. What if the coach that won the state titles had 3 D1 receivers, 3 D1 linemen, and an quarterback going to Alabama? Then the coach going second built a team that never won into an average team?
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 14, 2016 14:15:12 GMT -6
I need to clarify here. I was answering the question in terms of "If I was going into a clinic and didn't know anything about a guy, would his school's success be a factor in his credibility with me from the beginning?" To that, my answer is yes, absolutely.
I also think that if I saw two speakers and didn't know anything about them but their records, I would lend more credence to the speaker with more success.
I'm not saying that you can't learn from someone who hasn't been to a state title game or that there aren't coaches out there with rings won with a talented QB instead of an effective approach to the game. I'm just using their records as the only way of distinguishing the two.
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 14, 2016 14:16:52 GMT -6
Think about it like this. You're a coach of a perennial 7-3 team. You're looking for something that will get you over the hump. I'm a coach of a perennial 5-5 team and that's all you know. I say, "I'll help you out. Your quick game is all wrong. This is how we do it." Records matter when that's all you've got on a guy.
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Post by natenator on Jan 14, 2016 14:57:34 GMT -6
I learn an awful lot from guys here at Huey and I bet many of them that I have learned from have never won anything substantial as a player or coach.
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Post by 33coach on Jan 14, 2016 15:16:27 GMT -6
how are we measuring success?
win / loss record? state championships? # of D1 commits?
having success (win / loss) is never about scheme - its about athletes. When i was coaching HS, there was no one in our league who was more fundamentally sound - no one broke freely on us, but we were always bringing a knife to a gun fight - my 170lb DL was going against 250lb OL...and doing as well as they could have. Our win/loss record didnt reflect how good we were as a football program.
so no, i honestly dont care about the slide on coaches powerpoints talking about how many state championships they have won...or whatever, and a guy who spends too much time on that slide. loses alot of points with me.
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Post by wingtol on Jan 14, 2016 16:00:32 GMT -6
I was kind of thinking more of guys who are these constant self promoters with books, blogs, dvd's, breaking stuff down on twitter, being labeled as "foremost expert" "cutting edge" gurus etc, who have all the answers but when you look at their performance it really is lacking or down right bad. I guess it's like if you were building a house and interviewing builders and a guy was blowing you away with designs, knew all the building codes, had fancy tools, and then you went and looked at his previous builds and they were crooked or falling apart or things looked like crap. I don't know just rambling sorry.
Not to say I only seek out guys who have like an 85% winning percentage to talk with I guess some guys just rub me wrong with their arrogance maybe? Like I said just rambling. I'll stop now.
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Post by carookie on Jan 14, 2016 20:41:42 GMT -6
It's difficult for me to give credibility to someone who hasn't had success in what they are talking about. Everybody has an opinion, but I tend to trust those whose opinions have been proven true and have worked over time. Ahhh, but to what extent is the success we credit them with of their own doing and to what success is it someone else's. I was a heck of a coach when I was at a school that fudged our enrollment numbers and out talented most teams into titles.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jan 26, 2016 17:37:57 GMT -6
It's difficult for me to give credibility to someone who hasn't had success in what they are talking about. Everybody has an opinion, but I tend to trust those whose opinions have been proven true and have worked over time. This makes sense, but I have to say that one of the coaches I have the most respect for and learned the most from has a losing record. He has been at the same school for years in a town where athleticism isn't exactly high. But he coaches his butt off and has made the program very respectable despite not having the "Jimmy's and Joe's." He coaches with class and dignity and while other guys are out there trying to recruit and selling their souls to get the best athletes in different towns, he stays true to his values and loyal to his homegrowns kids.
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Post by 33coach on Jan 26, 2016 17:43:29 GMT -6
It's difficult for me to give credibility to someone who hasn't had success in what they are talking about. Everybody has an opinion, but I tend to trust those whose opinions have been proven true and have worked over time. Ahhh, but to what extent is the success we credit them with of their own doing and to what success is it someone else's. I was a heck of a coach when I was at a school that fudged our enrollment numbers and out talented most teams into titles. if someone goes undefeated running QB sneak and a 1-1-9 defense. are they a genius? or do they have the athletes to do whatever they want?
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Post by brophy on Jan 27, 2016 11:42:39 GMT -6
Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? rules to live by h.. There is no need to “validate” your posts on here by saying “so and so does this”, or “I have been coaching for X # of years”. Your ideas and thoughts will validate themselves by the logical and sound aspects with which you write or “speak” them.
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Post by funkfriss on Jan 28, 2016 9:42:39 GMT -6
Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? rules to live by h.. There is no need to “validate” your posts on here by saying “so and so does this”, or “I have been coaching for X # of years”. Your ideas and thoughts will validate themselves by the logical and sound aspects with which you write or “speak” them. I think the answer to the OP's question can now be summed up this way. If all we know about somebody is that they have been successful, we will give him the benefit of the doubt. If we know he hasn't been overly successful we will enter with a little skepticism. Once we hear what he has to say, his success means less than his presentation, knowledge, and ideas. I've been pleasantly surprised by some "small potatoes" coaches and have been very disappointed after listening to some "big dog" coaches. I'm sure most of you have similar experiences.
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Post by wingtol on Jan 28, 2016 10:48:02 GMT -6
I think the answer to the OP's question can now be summed up this way. If all we know about somebody is that they have been successful, we will give him the benefit of the doubt. If we know he hasn't been overly successful we will enter with a little skepticism. Once we hear what he has to say, his success means less than his presentation, knowledge, and ideas. I've been pleasantly surprised by some "small potatoes" coaches and have been very disappointed after listening to some "big dog" coaches. I'm sure most of you have similar experiences. Last thing I will say, I hope, on this. I am not one of these guys who follows around the big time coaches and hangs on their every word and only listen to them. I love hearing other HS coaches and small college guys talk or to visit with. We have all had up's and down's through our careers and most people have found out it's the old Jimmies and Joes vs X and O's. I know LOTS of guys who are great coaches that aren't winning championships and might not be winning all the time but have their guys playing the right way. With that being said the more I think about it maybe I am just feed up with or annoyed with or whatever when I see more and more of the self proclaimed experts appearing all the time because they have created themselves as experts with all the connectivity available in today's world where they can promote the hell out of themselves. I am not that old but have been coaching almost 20 years now and feel like more and more guys are giving themselves these reputations with out having earned it. Like it used to be. Guys use to earn it, word got out about who knew there stuff then you would think like hey we need to talk with so and so or go see so and so speak now it's like here I am look at my offense or defense I am an expert at it! Buy this, buy that, I will be speaking here, here, and here! Maybe that's where my rant and OP was going and I couldn't really express it.
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Jan 28, 2016 11:12:59 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? Has there ever been a speaker who never had success at some point in there career? What would they be talking about if they never had any success? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards Yes I know a guy that has spoke on defense at many a clinic over the years and he has never had a winning season at any of his 4 head coaching spots Now he did have one good year in juco as a dc
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Post by 33coach on Jan 28, 2016 11:17:21 GMT -6
Has there ever been a speaker who never had success at some point in there career? What would they be talking about if they never had any success? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards Yes I know a guy that has spoke on defense at many a clinic over the years and he has never had a winning season at any of his 4 head coaching spots Now he did have one good year in juco as a dc ive given talks and im about as average as it gets. my record is around 500, probably less after last years 0-8 run.... i dont think you can tie knowledge to success. you can have a great program and great system and just not have the kids.
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Jan 28, 2016 11:18:48 GMT -6
I would say that success doesn't make one credible, but I personally probably am not putting much credence in things you say (particularly things I am not familiar with) if you don't have some success. For example, if you are telling me about your key reads and reactions, and you haven't really had much success defensively then I would be hesitant to implement them. Why should I be the guinea pig even though they sound like they make sense. I know another guy that has spoke, only 3 winning seasons and 4 layoff appearances as a head coach, but many times 10-0 as a dc, and tons of college experience and good dc If you just looked at his team success you might be hesitant to listen to him at clinic But the jobs he has taken have been flat out down and out don't touch with a 100 foot pole jobs, he gets then respectable and about to break through and then decides to leave to another rebuilding project , they always make playoff right after he's left and they have learned to grind. He was dc on a very average team this year and turned there defense into one of the best in the state and they made 2 round for first time in for ever. So I guess if you know the guy or how his actual coaching situation it goes a long way with me. There are others in my state that win all the time, but I know they are talent out the wazzoo and they can't coach their way out of a paper bag, so I never would listen to them
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 28, 2016 18:23:38 GMT -6
Yes I know a guy that has spoke on defense at many a clinic over the years and he has never had a winning season at any of his 4 head coaching spots Now he did have one good year in juco as a dc ive given talks and im about as average as it gets. my record is around 500, probably less after last years 0-8 run.... i dont think you can tie knowledge to success. you can have a great program and great system and just not have the kids. True statement, but unless you have a close friend who is in charge of getting speakers, how would someone even be considered to speak at a clinic if theyve never been a part of a decent program. I'm not talking 45-5 record or even a 30-20 record. If a DC with 6 years of coordiating experience never has had more than 2 wins in a season....why would they even be asked is my question. Maybe fill in for someone?
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Post by fantom on Jan 28, 2016 19:10:37 GMT -6
It's difficult for me to give credibility to someone who hasn't had success in what they are talking about. Everybody has an opinion, but I tend to trust those whose opinions have been proven true and have worked over time. I understand your thinking (and I probably do the same to a degree), but let me expand on this a little. Say you have 2 coaches, both speaking about the Run&Shoot. One has won 3 state titles, the other has had mediocre success. Is the offense diminished when the 2nd coach speaks? I wouldn't see somebody talk about the Run and Shoot.
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Post by runitupthemiddle on Jan 28, 2016 22:44:52 GMT -6
Yes I know a guy that has spoke on defense at many a clinic over the years and he has never had a winning season at any of his 4 head coaching spots Now he did have one good year in juco as a dc ive given talks and im about as average as it gets. my record is around 500, probably less after last years 0-8 run.... i dont think you can tie knowledge to success. you can have a great program and great system and just not have the kids. Yes True Which is what I basically said in my next post.
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Post by tog on Jan 31, 2016 20:17:45 GMT -6
I skipped out on seeing a "great coach" the last couple of days talk
He couldn't take mine and beat his. I could certainly take his and beat mine.
But he has more credibility than me.
Right.....
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 31, 2016 20:43:02 GMT -6
Would you listen to this guy speak? He was 1-10 as a HS coach last year....OH yea he used to be the HC of the Packers Just sayin.. www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/nauset-regional-warriors-(north-eastham,ma)/football/schedule.htm Somebody made an interesting point about bloggers above: #1 I too often wonder if they implement their own strategies. #2 there is a blogger that often mentions that he is a retired coach, I one time saw a picture of him and he is about 28? IDK Here's what i do know, I will read a blog, and consider if it would be useful for me...If so I use it or file it away in my head or not..If I don't keep on reading interesting things, guess what, I don't have to read it anymore. For instance, I have no idea who writes the blitzology blog or what James Light's pedigree is... the stuff on those sites is pretty cool (at least to me) I really don't care if they coach or not..
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Post by fantom on Jan 31, 2016 21:12:11 GMT -6
If I go to a clinic I choose the sessions I attend based on their topics, not their team's record. If they're a HS guy or a small college coach there's a decent chance that I don't know his team's record.
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Post by funkfriss on Feb 1, 2016 8:42:35 GMT -6
If I go to a clinic I choose the sessions I attend based on their topics, not their team's record. If they're a HS guy or a small college coach there's a decent chance that I don't know his team's record. I agree. I'm usually too lazy and don't really care about somebody's success. Usually find out by the 3rd slide if the guy's won some titles though
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Post by eaglemountie on Feb 1, 2016 11:47:09 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? Personally I think the coach that no one has ever heard of from a small school brings more to a clinic speaking session than anyone... Possible chip on his shoulder, feels like he has something to prove, had to approach the game and be more creative due to limited resources/talent...
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 1, 2016 14:40:39 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? Personally I think the coach that no one has ever heard of from a small school brings more to a clinic speaking session than anyone... Possible chip on his shoulder, feels like he has something to prove, had to approach the game and be more creative due to limited resources/talent... right generally, D3 coaches and top HS coaches seem to have the most to offer
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Post by fbs on Feb 1, 2016 14:41:54 GMT -6
I think success makes me listen initially, but I as they are talking I'm evaluating if it was anything they did as a staff, or if they just had some freaks running around out there and it didn't matter. Let me put it this way, I'm not going to watch any 0-10 coaches to see how they do things.
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Post by tothehouse on Feb 1, 2016 14:45:39 GMT -6
What about the coach whose players are the biggest freaks on the planet? Pretty much any scheme could/should work. I know I look like I know what I'm doing when we have studs.
I look for the guy who has success with about the same amount of talent as we do....and then how he gets "it" out of these lesser talented guys.
And then I go see how the big boys do it. Because usually their stuff is good no matter what.
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