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Post by wingtol on Jan 9, 2016 21:47:04 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches.
Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)?
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 9, 2016 21:51:16 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? Has there ever been a speaker who never had success at some point in there career? What would they be talking about if they never had any success? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 9, 2016 22:15:46 GMT -6
I would say that success doesn't make one credible, but I personally probably am not putting much credence in things you say (particularly things I am not familiar with) if you don't have some success.
For example, if you are telling me about your key reads and reactions, and you haven't really had much success defensively then I would be hesitant to implement them. Why should I be the guinea pig even though they sound like they make sense.
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Post by agap on Jan 9, 2016 22:18:48 GMT -6
It doesn't impact me, but I'm sure it affects other people. A lot of coaches have success because of the players they have, not the schemes they run. I'll get information from a coach whether they went 14-0 or 0-9 if it's sound and fits our schemes.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jan 9, 2016 22:26:13 GMT -6
Success in this year or over the long run? Clinic speakers seem to mostly be chosen from among those who had good seasons in the past year, though I would argue that true credibility is a function of long term results.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 9, 2016 22:32:30 GMT -6
It should be a factor but certainly not the only factor. And I agree 100% that one season shouldn't impact it much, but if they guy's a perennial winner then I'm going to give him a little more benefit of the doubt if something sounds questionable.
Something else I try to remind myself when the film comes on is that just because they have great players doesn't mean the scheme isn't also sound. I think it's easy as a coach to just assume that the guy is only winning because he's got great players and that we'd all do the same if we only had those types of guys.
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Post by fantom on Jan 9, 2016 22:50:50 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? Of course it does. First of all, as ha been stated, coaches of bad teams don't get invited to speak. Secondly, if I hear two conflicting ideas I'm probably going with the one from the perenniel winner.
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Post by wingtol on Jan 10, 2016 7:46:20 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? Of course it does. First of all, as ha been stated, coaches of bad teams don't get invited to speak. Secondly, if I hear two conflicting ideas I'm probably going with the one from the perenniel winner. I agree most speakers are chosen for their success but there are some out there who have somehow labeled themselves as gurus or experts on something, now maybe they have created that themselves in this digital age and are marketing themselves that way, when they really have nothing to back it up with.
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Post by spos21ram on Jan 10, 2016 8:13:52 GMT -6
It doesn't impact me, but I'm sure it affects other people. A lot of coaches have success because of the players they have, not the schemes they run. I'll get information from a coach whether they went 14-0 or 0-9 if it's sound and fits our schemes. The OP is talking about clinic speakers, not getting advice from a local coach you know that runs a similiar scheme. How would someone even be asked to speak if they had a career record of 3 -30? Or if never a HC, how would a OC/DC get invited to speak if they never coached on a successful team? There are good coaches who just never win for various reasons, mainly talent, but that doesn't mean they'll ever get asked to speak somewhere. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 8:19:53 GMT -6
It doesn't impact me, but I'm sure it affects other people. A lot of coaches have success because of the players they have, not the schemes they run. I'll get information from a coach whether they went 14-0 or 0-9 if it's sound and fits our schemes. How would someone even be asked to speak if they had a career record of 3 -30? Or if never a HC, how would a OC/DC get invited to speak if they never coached on a successful team? There are good coaches who just never win for various reasons, mainly talent, but that doesn't mean they'll ever get asked to speak somewhere. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards plenty of coaches, really good coaches on good staffs, who never get the chance speak. Don't you think that some of it is self promotion. I don't have a problem with it by any means.
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 11, 2016 12:17:37 GMT -6
Yes. It's the only thing I have that can verify if what you're telling me is going to work. I understand everything is relative. 9-1 at school A can hold just as much weight as 7-3 at school B depending on the circumstances. But, if your name personally carries no weight, then your school's tradition is what I'm going off of.
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Post by oriolepower on Jan 11, 2016 13:26:43 GMT -6
It depends what you are looking for in a speaker.
Knowledge of the game doesn't equal good coaching.
You can learn a lot from coaches that know the scheme/technique to the smallest detail but can't always get a player to do it.
You can also learn a lot from people that can get people to perform but don't have a clue of best technique or scheme.
The really good ones are those that know both.
Bill Belichick went 36-44 in Cleveland. His final season going 5-11. I think he knows somethings.
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 11, 2016 13:44:30 GMT -6
I don't think that the amount of knowledge I can gain from someone is dependent upon their level of success. I was just responding to the OP where he asked if we take the speaker's success into account when judging his credibility.
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Post by fantom on Jan 11, 2016 13:52:34 GMT -6
A few years ago I heard an NFL OL coach speak and he was espousing an unorthodox technique for pass pro. Thing is, h'e team led the league in sacks allowed the year before. How can I take that back to my boss?
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 11, 2016 14:03:45 GMT -6
A few years ago I heard an NFL OL coach speak and he was espousing an unorthodox technique for pass pro. Thing is, h'e team led the league in sacks allowed the year before. How can I take that back to my boss? Right. I think anything he says that is something I already hold true is okay for me. Anything he says that is contradictory towards what I believe or have experienced is going to be judged on its value to you, the presenter. If a guy wins a state title and swears his weight room is all centered around Yoga and never lifting heavy, I would have no choice but to hear him out based on his success. If he showed me his game tape and he has a bunch of speedy freaks and he's playing the sisters of the poor, I can change my mind. But, his ideas are lent more credence than the guy who went 3-7 back to back years with his yoga routine.
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ai5220
Freshmen Member
Posts: 36
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Post by ai5220 on Jan 11, 2016 14:24:46 GMT -6
It depends what you are looking for in a speaker. Knowledge of the game doesn't equal good coaching. You can learn a lot from coaches that know the scheme/technique to the smallest detail but can't always get a player to do it. You can also learn a lot from people that can get people to perform but don't have a clue of best technique or scheme. The really good ones are those that know both. Bill Belichick went 36-44 in Cleveland. His final season going 5-11. I think he knows somethings. A lot of it I feel is take a chance and see. Many times you go for the "eye test", looking for a big name program, team, or university. But I've gleaned a lot of great, adaptable stuff from some east bumble---- schools who are teaching a topic of interest. I really think it all depends on what you can comprehend, relate, and apply from the speaker. Sometimes I go see a speaker from a credible team and they talk about many things I know and understand already. Even in those cases I come away with at least the peace of mind that I'm doing something right. Going in looking for the be all-end all cure for your problems probably isn't the best mindset. But as teachers, looking to pare that solid nugget of information down to an adaptable level for your kids is worth the price of admission. I've rarely come across somebody who wasn't prepared and had nothing to offer.
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Post by spartandefense on Jan 11, 2016 14:45:02 GMT -6
Great question:
A few of the major speakers on the clinic circuit have had little to zero success within the past 5 years, yet I see people on this board mentioning their schemes and videos (RS and JC come to mind). I am not throwing anyone under the bus, players definitely do matter.
What do you guys think about some of the more popular football blogs out there? Most of those guys don't even coach anymore and probable never implemented what they blog about.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2016 15:17:11 GMT -6
Great question: A few of the major speakers on the clinic circuit have had little to zero success within the past 5 years, yet I see people on this board mentioning their schemes and videos (RS and JC come to mind). I am not throwing anyone under the bus, players definitely do matter. What do you guys think about some of the more popular football blogs out there? Most of those guys don't even coach anymore and probable never implemented what they blog about. I think most blogs are mean to build a business, brand name. Equivelant to what writing a book use to be. If it is good information, who cares where it comes from.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 11, 2016 15:24:42 GMT -6
There are coaches who have been coaching say 40 years and have a .500 record. They have been at one place forever or many places. Maybe they have moved and taken "bad" jobs. So years 1-4 were below .500 and then had some success, then used that success to move on to a bigger school and repeated the process. One of the best coaches I know coaches at a small school and while he has over 100 wins he also has over 100 losses. But man does he get a lot from his guys and knows how to coach what he coaches.
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Post by s73 on Jan 11, 2016 15:30:08 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? For me, success is relative. The record is not always indicative of the situation. If coach A wins every year at a school that has always won and coach B wins periodically at a school that never won prior to his tenure I would think who was actually the better of the two would be up for reasonable debate. JMO.
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Post by spartandefense on Jan 11, 2016 16:05:55 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? For me, success is relative. The record is not always indicative of the situation. If coach A wins every year at a school that has always won and coach B wins periodically at a school that never won prior to his tenure I would think who was actually the better of the two would be up for reasonable debate. JMO. The blog I am specifically referring to is more nuts and bolts of schemes and clearly states this is how ran it or would do it.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 11, 2016 16:20:02 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? define success
US Military Academy goes 6-5 against 4 bowl teams- pulls upset vs Notre Dame
Notre Dame goes 10-1 vs a bunch of 1-10 teams
which Coach would you prefer to listen to?
I really think success has to do with overachieving /maximizing the talent you have and or hiding the lack of talent you cope with.
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ai5220
Freshmen Member
Posts: 36
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Post by ai5220 on Jan 11, 2016 16:27:03 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? define success
US Military Academy goes 6-5 against 4 bowl teams- pulls upset vs Notre Dame
Notre Dame goes 10-1 vs a bunch of 1-10 teams
which Coach would you prefer to listen to?
I really think success has to do with overachieving /maximizing the talent you have and or hiding the lack of talent you cope with.
Now I'm definitely researching every speaker on the agenda. Great point!
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Post by wingtol on Jan 11, 2016 17:10:42 GMT -6
Just want to ask as clinic season approaches. Does someone's success have an impact on how much creditably they have with you (speaker,author,etc..)? define success
US Military Academy goes 6-5 against 4 bowl teams- pulls upset vs Notre Dame
Notre Dame goes 10-1 vs a bunch of 1-10 teams
which Coach would you prefer to listen to?
I really think success has to do with overachieving /maximizing the talent you have and or hiding the lack of talent you cope with.
I should have been a bit broader and said basically people who are putting stuff out there whether it be speakers, authors, bloggers, tweeters, videos, etc... You see people who present themselves as one of the experts....a leader in the field of....a guru of.... I guess in this day and age it is a lot easier to create a persona for yourself and get people to buy into it. I may be rambling a bit but I have been in clinics or read stuff by people (HC/OC/DC/position coaches) and they come out and say "we weren't real good this year" or " we have been up and down" and I respect that more than guys who stand up there and have fancy websites and books and dvd's who act like they are Gods gift and then you look around a bit and see they last about 2 years at a stop and have never had much success and don't seem to produce in coaching but yet go on for ever about how great their system is or whatever. Know what I mean?
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Post by carookie on Jan 11, 2016 17:12:10 GMT -6
I'll chime in. One thing the last few years have taught me, is that often times people are able to be successful, win, or garner high standing and credentials despite themselves.
I have been lucky enough to work side by side some former and current NFL and D1 coaches over the last few years;I think many would assume that to reach that echelon in the coaching business is a mark of success. And while many have been quality coaches and decent hard working men, there have been a significant number whose credentials far out clip their ability.
Now let me add, I don't know everything these guys have done. For some, my sample size of working with them was only a few days (others months). That being written, this is something I feel strongly about in many fields- just because you are viewed as the most successful, doesnt necessarily make you the best, especially in fields where you are evaluated on the success of others.
Too often we equate experience, titles, or credentials to be skill and ability; this simply isnt true. I know I may be playing to the crowd with this old adage, but in many ways I believe that the best coaches out there are HS coaches, expecially if you want to learn how to be a better HS coach (ie clinic)
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jan 12, 2016 11:48:53 GMT -6
This is the first year I will be speaking at a clinic. It was my 2nd year as HC so I don't have a long tenure but:
The only difference between my first year and this year was success of the team. 5-5 to 12-1. Offense was same (schematically not production) and defense was the same (again schematically). Program values, offseason etc all the same.
So yes, credibility (when it comes to clinic speakers) is important. That's why clinics shouldn't be the basis of your offseason education. Is every clinic speaker a long-term success? No- I'm proof of that. Is every unsuccessful coach full of $hit? No, but it's hard to justify adopting someone's ideas when they haven't shown their own success...
It's like having a personal trainer- the one that looks like he himself has worked his a$$ off is the guy that will get more clients. Whether he knows what he's talking about, is just genetically gifted, or can teach the concepts to someone else is unknown.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 12, 2016 14:37:24 GMT -6
I think if you can sit in a clinic and know if a guy is spitting bull@#$% at you and you can get up and leave and go to the next room...
I can usually sniff out credibility in a hurry but Id bet many a young newbie coach cannot.
When you listen to some cat spewing out his stats but then see the film of all his highly recruited guys smashing the league sadsacks....its not his xs and os.
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Post by funkfriss on Jan 12, 2016 15:32:13 GMT -6
define success
US Military Academy goes 6-5 against 4 bowl teams- pulls upset vs Notre Dame
Notre Dame goes 10-1 vs a bunch of 1-10 teams
which Coach would you prefer to listen to?
I really think success has to do with overachieving /maximizing the talent you have and or hiding the lack of talent you cope with.
I should have been a bit broader and said basically people who are putting stuff out there whether it be speakers, authors, bloggers, tweeters, videos, etc... You see people who present themselves as one of the experts....a leader in the field of....a guru of.... I guess in this day and age it is a lot easier to create a persona for yourself and get people to buy into it. I may be rambling a bit but I have been in clinics or read stuff by people (HC/OC/DC/position coaches) and they come out and say "we weren't real good this year" or " we have been up and down" and I respect that more than guys who stand up there and have fancy websites and books and dvd's who act like they are Gods gift and then you look around a bit and see they last about 2 years at a stop and have never had much success and don't seem to produce in coaching but yet go on for ever about how great their system is or whatever. Know what I mean? I know exactly what you mean and it has bothered me for a while as well. I feel like there are a good number guys out there who are more into the self-promotion and branding than anything else. Honestly, if I see a guy talking about his "Boom-Ya-Digity" Defense I'm probably not going to listen to him. I'm not here for the dog and pony show, just want to listen to and talk football. As others have said, I take success with a grain of salt. The best coaches have sustained success, not the ebb and flow of talent success. I love sitting in on the coaches who are honest and say things like, "In 2009 we didn't have that great pocket passer, so here's how we adapted," or "I had a bunch of shrimps on DL so here's how we changed our technique." On the flip, I listened to a coach speak once about his KOR scheme and somebody asked, "What if you don't have a kid that's fast like your's on film there?" His response, "It's going to be hard to run this return." No thanks!
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Post by spartandefense on Jan 12, 2016 15:53:08 GMT -6
How about this one. What about guys who present packaged schemes they themselves don't run.
I think it's pretty obvious the guys I am referring to.
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Post by eagles8 on Jan 13, 2016 16:51:45 GMT -6
It's difficult for me to give credibility to someone who hasn't had success in what they are talking about. Everybody has an opinion, but I tend to trust those whose opinions have been proven true and have worked over time.
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