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wing t?
Jun 20, 2005 11:52:19 GMT -6
Post by wjblue on Jun 20, 2005 11:52:19 GMT -6
This forum seems to be going well. I would like some information on the wing t offense. I would like to know what you think the advantages and disadvantages are. In general what do you think of the wing t? And from a player perspective, what positions and what type of player at those positions are most important to its success or failure? Thanks.
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wing t?
Jun 20, 2005 12:01:40 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 20, 2005 12:01:40 GMT -6
This forum seems to be going well. I would like some information on the wing t offense. I would like to know what you think the advantages and disadvantages are. In general what do you think of the wing t? And from a player perspective, what positions and what type of player at those positions are most important to its success or failure? Thanks. I like the wing t. I wouldn't run it, because I really have no experience in it. I use a lot of wing t books (creehan) to give me ideas for gun plays. The advantages of it 1. misdirection 2. time of possession, for the sake of the defense 3. angles for the blocking, allows smaller less talented linemen to still be productive 4. some places don't have much of it, so it can be hard to prepare for 5. defensive conflict (see misdirection) Disadvantages 1. catch up 2. passing game (see catch up) 3. some places see a lot of it, so it can be easy to prepare for 4. this is a personal one, the cumbersome nature of a lot of the formation and play names, (not all wing t teams are like this, but it is chinese to me at times) 5. balance, or general lack of within, see passing game as for players to make it work, i would think qb would be one of the most important ones, with all the fakes, and the importance of carrying out fakes, if the qb can't run it right, then it will be a jumbled mess another big thing to me would be the coach and how well they know the offense and how things are all built into a system, how plays work off of each other, there are some major growing pains here i would think for a new coach trying to install the wing t, especially if they came from another coaching background |
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wing t?
Jun 20, 2005 12:11:28 GMT -6
Post by wjblue on Jun 20, 2005 12:11:28 GMT -6
Thanks for the response. I think the wing t has one of the biggest disparities for an offense between being run well and run poorly. I have actually heard people refer to it as a good passing offense or at least a good offense to pass from. I can understand the difficulty in long passing; but in general why do you think it is a poor passing offense?
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wing t?
Jun 20, 2005 12:17:05 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 20, 2005 12:17:05 GMT -6
didn't say it was a poor passing offense
just that it takes so much time to perfect the basic run game stuff within it, that giving the proper time to practice the passing game is simply not there, this is my perception at least
the reason why certain people would proclaim it to be a good passing offense is probably because the defense is all stacked up on the line
i totally agree with you about bad wing t versus good, there are some really bad ones out there that are simple to shut down
the good ones though, dang, it is sweet to watch
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wing t?
Jun 20, 2005 12:59:26 GMT -6
Post by veerfan78 on Jun 20, 2005 12:59:26 GMT -6
There is a small, 2a school here in Illinois who is one of many who run the wing t. The only difference is that they only use one formation! They run the traditional stuff from it like your counters, traps, sweeps, option and so forth. They also play for state championships year in and year out. The concept is learn only one formation, and master everything from it. Defensively, I'm not sure, but I think they run either a 5-2 or a 5-3. I could be completly wrong about this though. Does anyone feel that this would be tougher to prepare for with only one formation, or get more tendencies from multiple formations?
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wing t?
Jun 20, 2005 13:15:08 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 20, 2005 13:15:08 GMT -6
i have been intrigued with the one formation idea for a long time
how do dc's get tendencies anyhow? formations is a big part in that
the problem is what formation?
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cre44
Sophomore Member
Posts: 168
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wing t?
Jun 22, 2005 6:17:25 GMT -6
Post by cre44 on Jun 22, 2005 6:17:25 GMT -6
If you take your HB from a dive back position to a slot position you now have 4 receivers on the LOS ready to go out for a pass. If you run the ball well the play action is a killer when they start crowding the LOS. We'll have teams play without a free safety...we get past that 2nd level it's a TD!
It's just like any other offense. You have to be multiple and incorporate time to the passing game in your pratice...
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wing t?
Jun 22, 2005 6:21:48 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 22, 2005 6:21:48 GMT -6
cre, that sounds like what the flexbone guys out there say
i would guess that the wing t and flexbone guys that truly are balanced run/pass aer few and far between though
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cre44
Sophomore Member
Posts: 168
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wing t?
Jun 22, 2005 12:44:59 GMT -6
Post by cre44 on Jun 22, 2005 12:44:59 GMT -6
Tog - you are definitly correct! I'll be the first to admit that we don't throw the ball as much as we should and the yards we gain from throwing are usually play action.
We have made a real effort in the off season to improve and simplify our 3/5 step throwing game.
It also depends on your personnel. It is a lot easier to find a QB who can run then it is to find one who can throw at the HS level.
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wing t?
Jun 22, 2005 12:49:15 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 22, 2005 12:49:15 GMT -6
you got that right cre
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cre44
Sophomore Member
Posts: 168
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wing t?
Jun 23, 2005 11:20:21 GMT -6
Post by cre44 on Jun 23, 2005 11:20:21 GMT -6
There's never enough time to do it all.
How long are your practices tog? I know some people believe in keeping it short and sweet but we can never do that...our practices are 2.5 hours minimum. Sometimes we'll shorten if we are watching film or chalk talking but in general we are 2.5-3 hrs.
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wing t?
Jun 23, 2005 11:56:17 GMT -6
Post by outlaw92 on Jun 23, 2005 11:56:17 GMT -6
we run the wing t and i love it. we run the traditional delaware wing t. i think it is great, but i am a former o-lineman so i like the run first-smash mouth mentality of it. It is a good set up offense w/ the missdirection. defenses really have to read and know their assignments. I think the passing game is good from it b/c its a lot of play action and shorter passes-move the chains and get 1st downs-control the ball-control the game. We don't do like yall were saying-just one formation-we formation the crap out of people-gives the defense something else to look at. Use a lot of motion from the backs. We are a 2a school which is small-our guys play both ways so we practice O and D every day-we have plenty of time to get it done-just gotta coach 'em on the run. We have also been running it here for about 15 years-run the same thing at jr high level-so they already know most of their stuff by the time they get to HS.
TOG hit the nail on the head w/ the pro's and con's. But I think the pro's out way the cons. I'd also add that if u have lesser backs it helps them out-the missdirection and motion freezes/confuses the def long enough for them. Our fastest RB runs about a 4.9 and we averaged about 400 yards a game this past year.
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wing t?
Jun 23, 2005 13:38:43 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 23, 2005 13:38:43 GMT -6
we go about 2 hours, after that, the attention span tends to dip dramatically,
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wing t?
Jun 24, 2005 15:31:47 GMT -6
Post by trplaya on Jun 24, 2005 15:31:47 GMT -6
I play right guard in a wing t offense and no offense to the one post about having small lineman to run it i think you have to have big physical ones. In our offense the most important positions are qb and the guards. The reason the guards are so important is because we pull about 90% of the time.
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wing t?
Jun 26, 2005 11:11:27 GMT -6
Post by outlaw92 on Jun 26, 2005 11:11:27 GMT -6
I didn't say u "MUST" have small linemen, I said "IF" u have small linemen (and when i say small i mean any one under about 230 lbs) its good b/c small guys are not as good at just driving someone off the ball-like u need in other schemes. No matter how big u r u must be quick to run the wing-t-or at least run it good. If u r big and quick good-if u r big and slow u can't run the wing t. As a matter of fact no matter wht offense i am running if i had to choose between big and strong but slow linemen vs smaller quicker linemen i would choose the smaller quicker ones.
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wing t?
Jun 27, 2005 12:44:57 GMT -6
Post by outlaw92 on Jun 27, 2005 12:44:57 GMT -6
kw-while that may be true- none of my linemen have a shot at playing college ball. Also, we have to worry about winning here and not about getting scholarships. That may sound bad, but even if we had a stud OL guy come through we couldn't sacrafice the program to get 1 guy a scholarship-I assume u coach in college so u would know more about recruiting than me, but i would think that if a linemen was good enough he could get a scholarship no matter what type of offense he runs. If he is big & strong and dominates people and shows to have good feet i bet someone would take him. we r about 70% run 30% pass(rough est.)-so scouts would get to see him pass set. Also we do combos-zone/stretch so my linemen are exposed to most all types/tech of blocking.
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wing t?
Jun 27, 2005 13:14:12 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 27, 2005 13:14:12 GMT -6
the kick is pretty hard to teach, it does take them a while to learn how to do it good
short sets and pass punch aint too difficult though, they pick up on it pretty quick
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wing t?
Jun 27, 2005 13:20:30 GMT -6
Post by outlaw92 on Jun 27, 2005 13:20:30 GMT -6
I played OL and I never found pass pro to be too hard. My Sr year I was 6'6" 275 lbs and I never gave up a sack all year-I didn't have great feet, but I understood the concept and just never found it to be too tough-now when i got to college i gave up some sacks!! Granted run blocking is more natural, but if the player understands the concept and has a good ol coach-its not too hard-but like u said it is unnatural. And we don't do it a lot in games so we don't practice it as much. I wish we had more time to do more drills, but we go both ways and have limited time so I have to prioritze(sp).
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wing t?
Jun 27, 2005 20:52:12 GMT -6
Post by tog on Jun 27, 2005 20:52:12 GMT -6
kw, i ran over kids when i was young, don't know how good the technique was, but I never really touched a ball while playing in games, other than a handoff and then they all tried to bring me down,, once the little guys figured out that if they just ran into my knees i fell down, i became strictly a hitter instead of the hittee
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wing t?
Apr 26, 2006 21:41:35 GMT -6
Post by coachdawhip on Apr 26, 2006 21:41:35 GMT -6
It depends here in the State of GA. We have plenty of mulitple Wing-T teams who had 1700 passing yards. You have to do things in the wing-t to max passing potential. We do the Scat Game, Jet Bunch routes, etc.. and this has helped us tremendously
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 5:29:25 GMT -6
Post by lochness on Apr 27, 2006 5:29:25 GMT -6
Advantages:
Series-based
Utilizes 3 good running backs without having to stack the backfield
Can have an effective passing attack
Very good opportunities for misdirection
Good to play against poorly coached or undisciplined defenses
Disadvantages
Not a balanced offense
Largely dependant upon a variety of blocking schemes
Tough road if a well coached and disciplined defense is going against you
"canned offense"
Unathletic OL will cut your effectiveness severely IMO
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 7:32:13 GMT -6
Post by groundchuck on Apr 27, 2006 7:32:13 GMT -6
I don't run wing-t so I am by no means an expert. I think it is a great offensive system and you can add option or throw the ball, even run jets. But the reason I do not run it is because you cannot attack both sides of the center with your best RB. Unless of course he is the FB but then you are limited with how you can use him. But I agree with all the advantages other coaches have listed out. There is a reason so many teams run the wing-t.
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 7:50:02 GMT -6
Post by coachcalande on Apr 27, 2006 7:50:02 GMT -6
Heres my two cents The wing T is a complete offensive system. Its a philosophy. You want to give your average and below average athletes the best chance for success. How do you do that with the wing T? 1. you give them angles. a smaller man can move a bigger man with an angle and leverage advantage. 2. you create inner conflict for defenders...will they be down blocked? double teamed? trapped? do they chase who they THINK has the ball? they had better be trained to read blocking schemes or they are in for a long after noon. 3. you are different, your offense isnt the "tv" offense that many coaches will mimic. your offense gives kids that will never play at the "next level" a chance to WIN NOW which is your job. it gives them a chance to be successful. I personally love offenses that use angles, double teams, traps and pullers to provide interference for my small backs. with loads of blockers in front my lil backs never take a beating. with pullers and trapping going on my lil guys can embarass much bigger kids. with double teams and misdirection those studly kids on teh other side cant tee off on us as they would otherwise. calling plays in series, knowing who you are forcing into conflict is a big part of coaching this thing...guys that cant make it go generally dont understand the finer points of play calling and conflict...that is, they tend to grab bag (like many offenses...they put in too much)...its about EXECUTION OF A TEAM ATTACK. I like it. as far as(NOT TOG) knocking it as a poor come from behind offense...well, what offense is good at come from behind?...if its so good howd they fall behind in the first place? ....i think and always have thought, that the knock on run offenses as "not good from behind" is sort of an excuse for not running the ball and AN EXCUSE FOR being IMPATIENT. Ever coach with a guy who isnt patient? its frustrating... theres absolutely no reason to believe that teh wing-t or any "wing offense" (ie dw or sw) is poor at play from behind when you simply look at a teams scoring average. Southern Columbia is going to win its 5th straight state championship here in Pa, they are a long time wing-t team (20 plus years Ill bet)...they are a single A school and most of their kids will probably not play college football(btw, only one in 68 OF ALL HIGH SCHOOL ATHLETES ever gets on the college playing court/field)...they chose an offense that fits, and they believe in it and have run it long enough to know their own strengths and weaknesses. Their kids are in the wt room and out on the field preparing now im sure. Wyomissing high school here in Berks county is another "wing-t program" where they run the wing t all of the way thru and they routinely beat bigger schools with superior kids...because they believe in what they do and they commit to it. its poetry in motion and these cats can score some points every year it seems. btw, this past year was 100 year anniversary of the single wing offense...another offense that is "back in vogue". I dont coach the wing-t, but i believe in it. every year when im preparing my defense, we prepare it for the wing- t knowing darn well if we prepare for it, we can stop the other offenses out there. btw, a great place to study the wing-t is on www.bucksweep.comremember, YOURE NOT IN THE WING-T TO THROW THE BALL. LOL. |
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 8:01:00 GMT -6
Post by rathernot on Apr 27, 2006 8:01:00 GMT -6
Coach Calande
I agree with you on most of the things you say. I was at a school that grab bagged with the Wing T and never really tapped into the potential of the offense. You must be systematic with it but even Tubby Raymond said it can be a variable offense. You have to be willing to adjust what you do to the talent you have. Sometimes you should throw out of a 3 step set. The purpose of the positioning of the Wing is to maintain 3 deep threats.
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 8:06:22 GMT -6
Post by coachcalande on Apr 27, 2006 8:06:22 GMT -6
i agree, you will want to be able to throw...id look at it like this...you need a core offense...
maybe 3 run series and 2 pass series
buck
belly
power
3 step game
5 step sprint out
but thats going to be enough. its when you steal from teh core and suddenly cant even run buck sweep or trap or belly well that the wing-t becomes borish.
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 8:16:57 GMT -6
Post by rathernot on Apr 27, 2006 8:16:57 GMT -6
I am actually going to run a hybrid variant that is based solely on the Jet and Rocket Sweep series. It is Wes Elrods system that they run at Cumberland University in TN. Wing T based in the systematic approach but also very different.
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 8:49:12 GMT -6
Post by kcbazooka on Apr 27, 2006 8:49:12 GMT -6
Love some parts of the winged-t. Plusses - you can win with lesser personel. With the misdirection - sometimes you don't have to block very well for the offense to work. I have used both multiple formation and single formation. We ended one year in the playoffs and by the end of the just had one formation. Obviously no formation tendencies.
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 9:30:06 GMT -6
Post by coachdawhip on Apr 27, 2006 9:30:06 GMT -6
You don't need good lineman to run this offense, all they have to do is take angle steps and you are blocked.
Sunday meetings are easy all I need to knwo is what is there base defense and who are there 2 best and 2 worst players, and I already know everything we need to know. Let's work on defense.
Our QB threw 13 TD's and 1100 yards last year. People think you can't throw out of the wing but we run many of the same packages spread teams run.
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 9:45:13 GMT -6
Post by coachcalande on Apr 27, 2006 9:45:13 GMT -6
"People think you can't throw out of the wing but we run many of the same packages spread teams run. "
YUP, I STILL THINK ITS JUST AN EXCUSE, A COP OUT IF YOU WILL. YOU CAN THROW FROM ANY FORMATION. NOWADAYS TEAMS PRACTICE YEAR ROUND, KIDS ARE RUNNING THE WAGGLE PASS PATTERNS EVERY DAY AROUND HERE. THAT IS ONE OF THE TOUGHEST PLAYS IN FOOTBALL.
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wing t?
Apr 27, 2006 10:07:50 GMT -6
Post by groundchuck on Apr 27, 2006 10:07:50 GMT -6
I agree you can pass from any formation. In 2004 the 5A state champs ran wing-t and the QB threw for over 1,000 yards. ALot of it was off play action. You can throw from the power I, or the bone too. Even the double wing. The wing-t waggle pass, which gets run from various formations and other offenses is one of the best plays in football.
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