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Post by fbdoc on Aug 1, 2007 17:03:24 GMT -6
Raider - I'm saying it as the Head Coach. I would work with the guy as long as it took and help him any way I could so he could be as good in the PE setting as he was on the field. But if didn't want to raise his level of teaching and his attitude remained Roll out the balls, he'd be gone.
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Post by airraider on Aug 1, 2007 17:11:27 GMT -6
Raider - I'm saying it as the Head Coach. I would work with the guy as long as it took and help him any way I could so he could be as good in the PE setting as he was on the field. But if didn't want to raise his level of teaching and his attitude remained Roll out the balls, he'd be gone. Like I said.. thats your business.. and I assume you would have that power.. but that to me doesnt make anymore sense than firing him because he cheats on his wife.. or gambles.. I mean sure.. those are both bad.. and he needs to get them right.. and he should have to answer to someone for it.. but.. I personally feel it shouldnt be the HC.. What if you have a volunteer coach and he worked at "Mr. Brophy's hot wax shop" and he wasnt waxing back hair good enough?? Would you fire him then?? All Im saying is that his teaching.. and his coaching.. should be two separate ententes as far as the HC is concerned.. and I am not saying YOU should feel this.. only saying I feel this way.. So please dont take this as me trying to change your mind.. or dumping on you for thinking this way.. I just cant justify it to myself enough to think along these lines..
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Post by seagull73 on Aug 1, 2007 18:57:39 GMT -6
Airraid, You need to get out more. Most PE teachers I know work at their job and take it very seriously. I am forced to teach health & I hate it but I still lesson plan and prepare myself.
I see far more video lessons in the classroom than roll out lessons in P.E.
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Post by airraider on Aug 1, 2007 19:07:37 GMT -6
Airraid, You need to get out more. Most PE teachers I know work at their job and take it very seriously. I am forced to teach health & I hate it but I still lesson plan and prepare myself. I see far more video lessons in the classroom than roll out lessons in P.E. well maybe you teach in a sheltered area.. but the bottom line.. at most inner city public schools down here.. there is no teaching going on in PE class.. Even as far back as the mid 90's when I was in school all we did everyday was play basketball.. that was it.. I know we had to dress out.. and we might have done a brief warmup.. but ALL we did was play basketball. At my last school there was two different PE teachers there during my stint.. both of them did the same thing.. give them a basketball and let them play for an hour and a half.. When I got to my current school in the spring.. two gym classes that I saw.. were both playing basketball in school uniforms.. not dressed.. Its the norm in my region.. good for you if it is not in yours.. And I get out plenty..
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Post by dacoachmo on Aug 1, 2007 19:21:19 GMT -6
Guys, we should all be careful about making generalizations about things. I am a P.E. teacher for the past 7 years and a head football coach, in Illinois, one of the last states that requires P.E. I take my role as a P.E. teacher very serious, just as any other teacher does, to make a generalization that most P.E. teachers just roll out a ball is ridiculous and something I take offense to. I went to college for 4 years just like any other teacher. Are there some days when I would rather just roll out a ball and yell "free day"? Yes there is, but I am pretty sure any teacher could say that whether it is math, English, science or social studies. I am not saying that there are not some P.E. teachers out there that do that because I am sure there are but to make that broad of a statement is ridiculous because again, it could be said about any type of teacher. My students have different activities and sports that we participate in and they are required to know rules and regulations and get tested on them at the ned of each unit, which is a big part of their grade, so rolling out a ball would not be an option, especially if I want to keep my job. DITTO, I am a PE teacher, not GYM teacher... check with the teachers at the school and follow the state's guidelines. Basic plan would be pick a sport/activity for each month. divide by team, individual, and leisure sports. PM if you want more info...I have taught PE for ten years...
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Post by lionhart on Aug 1, 2007 19:25:48 GMT -6
i understand that there's only a certain amount of teachers.... but i think that its very dangerous and irresponisible to have people "teaching" our youth subjects in which they may or may not be proficient. you know what, i can drive a nail through a board with a hammer..... so i think i'll be a carpenter. tomorrow, i want to build YOUR house, ok? i agree with you about NCLB... its a poorly thought out program with some major holes in it. (#1 being that it is an unfunded mandate!) however, i think we , as a society and especially as parents, must demand that our children be educated by qualified individuals.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2007 19:52:07 GMT -6
Here's my experience with PE teachers--my HS PE teacher was the basketball coach. He let us play flag football the first two weeks of school, softball the last week or so of school and the rest of the year was basketball!! I'm not making that up!! I thought all PE teachers were this way and now that I've gone into education, I have NOT experienced a PE teacher like him or even remotely like him. Not calling airraider wrong, we probably just have had different experiences and that is mine.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 1, 2007 19:52:30 GMT -6
But, in all seriousness, it does appear to be one of your weaknesses. You seem to think that your experience encompasses a much broader spectrum, and often form a very strong based on that limited basis.
Wolverine--don't say you hate to call Airraider wrong. He is wrong. Period. He has gone from MOST, to MANY, to"well, the couple that I know around hear in public schools"
Bopper--go to the LA dept of ED website. You can find the link to the LA PE standards for the various grade levels you teach. Evaluate the space you have to help determine what lessons can be appropriate. pecentral.com is a very good resource for ideas. See about attending the LAPHERD conference. There are many good books on the subject, you can go to Amazon.com Pangrazzi is a leading authority on Physical Education at the lower levels, (not sure if he does much work at the H.S. level)
Now, keep this in mind, you could be going into a situation that is not so great. For instance, some bigger schools might have 1 gym, very little empty space, and 5 or 6 sections of students. When it rains... when it is cold... well, those are the fun days.
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Post by airraider on Aug 1, 2007 20:00:23 GMT -6
Here's my experience with PE teachers--my HS PE teacher was the basketball coach. He let us play flag football the first two weeks of school, softball the last week or so of school and the rest of the year was basketball!! I'm not making that up!! I thought all PE teachers were this way and now that I've gone into education, I have NOT experienced a PE teacher like him or even remotely like him. Not calling airraider wrong, we probably just have had different experiences and that is mine. My experience comes from 180 hours of logged observation hours of over 15 different high schools throughout the Northern part of Louisiana. Now like you said.. our experiences may differ, and it might be simply based on our geographics.
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Post by brophy on Aug 1, 2007 20:03:27 GMT -6
hey, airraide
get out of low-rent Louisiana sometime, you'll see teachers who actually teach and can take their careers seriously.
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Post by airraider on Aug 1, 2007 20:11:58 GMT -6
hey, airraide get out of low-rent Louisiana sometime, you'll see teachers who actually teach and can take their careers seriously. haha.. this coming from the bootleg coach.. who moved to Louisiana.. WHAT WERE YOU THINKIN BROPHALINA???
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Post by chadp56 on Aug 1, 2007 20:18:41 GMT -6
The roll out the ball "gym" classes are starting to die out in places where there is an appreciation for the quality of the classes that are offered. I'm a PE teacher who hasn't had a "free day" in years and I was hired specifically to replace some old timers who weren't up to the job. I hope airraider doesn't teach any type of research class as his sample of schools in Northern Louisiana does not show proof that 51 out of 100 PE teachers roll the ball out.
I try to do my best at every job I take on, head football coach, PE teacher, dad, husband, etc. I try to teach this to my players as well.
To answer the original question, I believe the difference between "gym" and "PE" is the teaching of lead-up skills. Teach a kid how to dribble a basketball, how to set a volleyball, etc., before you throw them into some games. Basically use an approach like you do as a coach. You wouldn't have a game before you taught a kid to get in a stance, or how to take a hand-off etc. Part of it amounts to not being a lazy a**.
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Shotgun1
Sophomore Member
It is better to die trying than to quit...
Posts: 214
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Post by Shotgun1 on Aug 1, 2007 21:18:22 GMT -6
Roll out the ball is definitely gone. I teach with 9 PE/Health teachers and 1 tends to roll out the ball on occasion. He has received an unsatisfactory rating this year and will be fired next if it occurs again. We have a detailed curriculum that needs to be followed and lesson plans have to be aligned to state/national standards. We need to use multiple teaching styles and teach to multiple intelligences as well as identify all of our students' learning styles. Students learn the importance of exercise and athletics and we are moving towards more of a lifestyle curriculum. We have a state of the art fitness center, a ropes course, and also use pedometers and Heart Rate Monitors in class on a regular basis.
Basic PE Class: Roll < 1min Dynamic Warm-up 2-3 min MS/ME component 1-2 min Skill Progression 5-10 min Activity 20+ min Cool Down 1-2 min
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Post by airraider on Aug 1, 2007 21:25:01 GMT -6
I think there must be some misunderstanding here.. I can only assume that you people think that I condone such tactics by PE coaches..
I just simply stated that most simply throw the ball out.. maybe I am misled by my ignorance of other regions.. and I apologize for that..
but, based on my experiences through college while observing many different high schools, there was not one who had any structure to them. They all simply checked role and told them to get in the gym..
It was so bad, I felt as if I was being a burden to these classes by actually having to teach a lesson for my observation period..
I personally wish that there were more structured PE classes around here. I feel the need is more than vital..
On another note.. its great to see how many elementary PE programs are so well planned and executed..
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Post by poweriguy on Aug 2, 2007 0:03:03 GMT -6
You mean there are still PE classes in school? Wow.
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Post by airraider on Aug 2, 2007 4:05:05 GMT -6
You mean there are still PE classes in school? Wow. Barely.. old school had about 800 kids. only around 40 non-athletics PE boys per semester.
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Post by kcbazooka on Aug 2, 2007 5:39:07 GMT -6
Y'all are downing "free day" as a BAD thing! By the way , we call it Individual Interest Day - sounds better to the REAL educators inthe building. We do some "free days" after we have introduced other activities - Not really "free days" cause the students are given options. One day options may be volleyball, basketball, walking or table tennis -- another day may be weightroom, flag football, hackeysack or using the track. Yeah, they are free days but if you think you can have sixty kids doing different things and not be supervising you are wrong. Besides, in this highly organized world its good to have the students make up their own games and do what they want once in awhile.
OK, let the barrages begin...
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Post by coachjd on Aug 2, 2007 6:20:33 GMT -6
we will have 1-2 free days or make up days is what we call them per semester. We set up different stations for the kids to choose what activities they want to participate in and then we will have kids who have missed a quiz, test, skills test, etc..... make them up on these days. Our kids get enough basketball around here, so I very rarely play basketball. Its a one week activity in my team sports unit.
Last time I checked I am a professional educator, not a just gym teacher.
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Post by Coach Huey on Aug 2, 2007 8:00:22 GMT -6
there are no athletes in PE down here. . . it is pretty much a guarantee that you will have the type of kids that despise activity. Athletes are in "Athletics" ... marching band even gets counted as P. E. So, pretty much every kid that does anything physical is not in the P.E. class...
good luck getting those guys to participate in a "game" everyday ... it is a tough chore for P.E. teachers, here and the best seem to find the right balance between "lessons", and "free choice" activities (basically several options to choose from for participation but none of which is 'do nothing') ... roll out the ball is not done, but it isn't always the easiest thing to have a similar approach as a classroom teacher when you have 45 students (plus there are probably 2 or 3 other P.E. teachers sharing the gym with you and they have 40-45 each) with little desire to be there.
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Post by thunder17 on Aug 2, 2007 8:23:20 GMT -6
I think that airrader is probably correct that geographics play a major role in the type of teachers you find teaching certain subjects. Being a middle school teacher in a middle to upper class district I have the ability to do things that an inner city teacher may not (that does not in any way give those teachers an excuse to be lazy and roll out the ball) such as put HRM's (Heart Rate Monitors) on the kids and probably afford some equipment to give the kids an opportunity to explore different sports. We have to turn in a curriculum map, we have to send in reports with students HRM numbers. We are expected, as we should be, to teach our kids the importance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle. It sounds as though airrader has ran into some poor teachers and I would guess they are backed by equally poor administrators. From a personal standpoint I do not want my kids leaving school talking about how crappy the PE teacher and program had been. Have a little pride in what you do, besides it should be FUN.
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Post by airraider on Aug 2, 2007 8:32:32 GMT -6
I think it also has to do alot with the out of site out of mind routine..
a large part of the gyms around here are detached from the main cluster of buildings and it is rare for any of the admin to make the trip.
At my old school it was 500 yards from the main building to the gym.. and that included a long walk up stairs.. the only communication that was ever made was with walkie talkies..
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Post by fbdoc on Aug 2, 2007 8:36:38 GMT -6
Brophy, seagull, dacoachmo, 5085 and all the others - Thanks for posting on this thread. I'm old enough to remember the "old" PE stereotype and how it had a negative impact on the coaching profession, and I'm also still young enough to feel passionate about how a positive PE experience can enhance all of us, kids and coaches alike.
This isnt a discussion about Man vs Zone or Double Wing vs Spread. This speaks to the professional pride that an indivdual has. There are absolutes in the teaching profession and planning and implementing a quality lesson is one of them!
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Post by airraider on Aug 2, 2007 8:41:00 GMT -6
180 hours of logged "observation" in one section of one state! A regular PE teacher will "Teach" more than that in the course of a couple of months! airraider - Your position on this thread seems to be as follows: Your HS PE teacher rolled the balls out Your observations of PE teachers in Northern Louisiana Your statement that - I guess our experiences are different Therefore - rolling the balls out is ok. This isnt a discussion about Man vs Zone or Double Wing vs Spread. This speaks to the professional pride that an indivdual has. There are absolutes in the teaching profession and planning and implementing a quality lesson is one of them! Brophy, seagull, dacoachmo, 5085 and all the others - Thanks for posting on this thread. I'm old enough to remember the "old" PE stereotype and how it had a negative impact on the coaching profession, and I'm also still young enough to still feel passionate about how a positive PE experience can enhance all of us, kids and coaches alike. Why dont you take a minute to go back and read my post about how my thoughts were regionally biased and ignorant of the other areas of the country.. AND how I did not agree with just rolling the ball out.. You assume that just because I stated that in my experience that most do it.. that I agree with it..
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Post by airraider on Aug 2, 2007 8:41:56 GMT -6
I think there must be some misunderstanding here.. I can only assume that you people think that I condone such tactics by PE coaches.. I just simply stated that most simply throw the ball out.. maybe I am misled by my ignorance of other regions.. and I apologize for that.. but, based on my experiences through college while observing many different high schools, there was not one who had any structure to them. They all simply checked role and told them to get in the gym.. It was so bad, I felt as if I was being a burden to these classes by actually having to teach a lesson for my observation period.. I personally wish that there were more structured PE classes around here. I feel the need is more than vital.. On another note.. its great to see how many elementary PE programs are so well planned and executed.. just incase you do not have the patience to go back and read.. doc..
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Post by fbdoc on Aug 2, 2007 8:49:56 GMT -6
Raider - my previous post has been modified. Thanks for the post!
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Post by brophy on Aug 2, 2007 8:52:30 GMT -6
I think it also has to do alot with the out of site out of mind routine.. a large part of the gyms around here are detached from the main cluster of buildings and it is rare for any of the admin to make the trip. At my old school it was 500 yards from the main building to the gym.. and that included a long walk up stairs.. the only communication that was ever made was with walkie talkies.. honestly, I think it continuance of this discussion has more to do with your isolated experiences within your current state's education system more than anything else. A complete lack of funding (I'm sure the money IS there....but) that leads to very poor and outdated resources in every school. Hard to make Chicken Grand Chenier with cans of spam. PE programs elsewhere run a gambit of BFS, weight training, multi-sport instruction, as well as physical education battery tests. When looking for a benchmark of educational standards, its best not to find the worst and call it the 'norm'.
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Post by wildcat on Aug 2, 2007 8:54:54 GMT -6
Again, I don't think that this is a problem of PE teachers only...there are poor, average, and exceptional teachers in EVERY subject area.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Aug 2, 2007 8:58:20 GMT -6
i understand that there's only a certain amount of teachers.... but i think that its very dangerous and irresponisible to have people "teaching" our youth subjects in which they may or may not be proficient. you know what, i can drive a nail through a board with a hammer..... so i think i'll be a carpenter. tomorrow, i want to build YOUR house, ok? i agree with you about NCLB... its a poorly thought out program with some major holes in it. (#1 being that it is an unfunded mandate!) however, i think we , as a society and especially as parents, must demand that our children be educated by qualified individuals.
Don't mean to hijack... but I've gotta respond...
"Qualified" as per NCLB means nothing. To be qualified means a lot of hoop jumping, a lot of money for a piece of paper with a seal and insignia. It signifies nothing. "Proficient" also means nothing (in the states I've been in anyway). It is perhaps irresponsible to have me teach math (I am cert. in PE, English and History), though I can help low level math students (and have done so). It would not have been irresponsible for me to teach PE prior to my certification. I had taught PE for 8 years before I had to become "qualified". To become "qualified" I had to take 12 hours of elem PE coursework (I teach in a 7-12 building) to teach weights (which I have taught for 15 years), where I had the qualifications to be a collegiate S&C coach... but was not "qualified" to do so in a high school. I know a reading teacher who could not get certified in bilingual without 24 hours of coursework (she was born and raised in Mexico...Spanish is her first language... and legally immigrated to the US 20 years ago). I know a guy who was a long term sub who couldn't get his math certification without 5-6 additional "teaching classes" (he is retired from the Air Force... also worked at NASA). Our science teacher (35 year teacher) recently had to complete 12 credit hours to be certified in biology (she was a chemistry major... had taught biology for 30 years... but she did not have a degree in it in 1971). I could give about 25 more examples of this type of stupidity run amok.
Too many people buy in to this bull about "highly qualified". The most important thing is DO YOU CARE ABOUT KIDS (as a coach or teacher). If you have a degree and care about kids, shouldn't you be able to teach most subjects at a 9th grade level. This "highly qualified" illusion will eventually shut down our school here. If we have to obtain "highly qualified" teachers across the board, we either have to: offer less as far as course options, hire more teachers (good idea, but no $ for that) or we can expect teachers to get up to 2 years of coursework done at their own expense within a year (which would not move anyone up on the pay scale if they are undergrad. classes). We have had people teach out of certification areas out of necessity and we seem to be doing OK (in 2005, 33% of our graduates scored a 31 or higher on the ACT. Like our government, I too can manipulate stats... we had 15 graduate in 05... and 5 were great students). As far as test scores go, we are routinely in the top 3 (ACT, State standards tests, etc.). In other words... I'd put our school up against ANY that has "highly qualified" teachers and would be sure we'd stack up quite nicely.
I'm sorry... but "highly qualified" and "proficient" do not mean what we have been lead to believe those terms mean.
We didn't have any of this 20 years ago... and our educational system was working. I'm tired of "education" being the scapegoat. Perhaps the lack of parenting, governmental leadership, morals and ethics have a bit to do with our "sorry state". (Which, if you compare us to the world is not as bad as it seems: we test all, they test the best. Look at it another way- if my team plays yours and I get to play my starters all game and you have a rule that you have to play everyone equally- No Player Left Behind... chances are pretty good my team will win).
And I might not hire you to build my house... but if you can hammer a nail, I might have you teach me to do it because I can not seem to do so without requiring a tetanus shot sometime during the project. I haven't written a bestseller... but that doesn't mean I can not teach someone how to write well.
By the way...(to get back on task here...) I teach PE (3 ath. weights and 1 general PE).
In PE we do play games (units of 2-6 weeks doing ultimate frisbee, volleyball, basketball, bowling...etc). Typical schedule is MWF- unit activities (week 1 basic skills- rules, weeks 2+ participation, end with test on rules/techniques) T,TH Fitness (modified athletic workout, with cardio work)
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Tampa
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
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Post by Tampa on Aug 2, 2007 11:56:10 GMT -6
I ROLL OUT THE BALL!!!
Just kidding. Bravo to SenatoBlutarky for his take on "being qualified", right on.
I am certified in P.E. as well as 3 other subjects. I teach 6 P.E. classes consisting of about 60 kids per class, of which 10% take up 90% of my time due to discipline problems. We will have 5-6 classes going on at the same time with one gym, one softball diamond, one outdoor basketball court, and a 1/4 acre of sand and sand spurs as our facilities.
Monday is my class' "Fitness Day" where I we spend the entire period on fitness/cardio exercises. Tues-Thursday are my unit instruction days. I teach units of Archery, Basketball, Football, Soccer, Field events, Softball, Tennis, Volleyball, and my favorite: Golf (which we work a lot with the sand wedge). I also throw in additional fun game units to break up the school year. Friday, all the P.E. teachers come together and give the kids an option much like KCBAZOOKA in which each teacher takes an area/game and the kids choose which game they would like to play. We call it "Choice Day".
I think you just have to work with what you have in kids and facilities and hope for the best. Heck, there are days I would like to just "roll out the balls", but I don't have the facilities anyway. Would it make me less of a football Coach? No. Most do not understand and I'm sure I'll get blasted here, but I teach because it's convenient to coach, I don't coach so I can teach. In other words, if I can't coach, I wouldn't bother being a teacher. Does this make me a bad teacher? No, because I still take pride in what ever I'm doing.
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Post by airraider on Aug 2, 2007 12:07:41 GMT -6
I too teach so that I can coach..
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