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Post by buck42 on Apr 22, 2013 17:33:31 GMT -6
I am curious to you guys thoughts of playing kids both ways. I refuse to lose (again, made mistake before) with my best players standing beside me BC the don't play offense. However, worried that I may need to play too many both ways. Also, what about a QB...he broke his thumb as QB last yr and came back a week later as a stud on defense....but our offense changes dramatically without him....thoughts
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Post by dcchan4 on Apr 22, 2013 18:05:44 GMT -6
It depends on the gap between talent. Say you play your stud rb at MLB, he will be tired on o and d, now is your tired stud better then your fresh starter? Now I have done it before but I would prefer for players to practice and improve at one position
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Post by Defcord on Apr 22, 2013 18:12:30 GMT -6
I think your statement about not losing with your best player on the sideline is a good guiding point. We start 5-6 both ways. We do try to get them a few series out when we can. Our studs will always play both ways because we need them to. The role guys are the guys we try to only play one way. We have a pretty good but not great LB who is probably our best FB but the backup FB is almost as good so we don't mind playing the LB one way so he is always fresh. Our top Wing has multiple D1 offers and is also the best corner in our state (not that I buy all of the rating publications) and he isn't coming off the field because we need him to be the man.
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Post by s73 on Apr 22, 2013 18:39:05 GMT -6
We play whoever we need to play to get it done.
Even though this is a tough strenuous game, the reality is that in a 48 minute game their is something like only 5-6 minutes of actual activity. My thoughts are that my guys better be able to be tough for 5-6 minutes regardless of how many of them are playing both ways.
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Post by buck42 on Apr 22, 2013 19:04:47 GMT -6
Good input so far....
S73...think its more like 9-10 mins...we averaged 55 snaps a game...double that and include 10 special teams plays that's about 120 plays at say 5 seconds a play...works out to 10 minutes...but I get your point...
My biggest concern is our QB...he is a player on both sides and we have no one close on either side....but we must change everything if he gets hurt...I know he can get hurt on O as much as D(happened last year) just nervous
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Post by fantom on Apr 22, 2013 19:05:00 GMT -6
I am curious to you guys thoughts of playing kids both ways. I refuse to lose (again, made mistake before) with my best players standing beside me BC the don't play offense. However, worried that I may need to play too many both ways. Also, what about a QB...he broke his thumb as QB last yr and came back a week later as a stud on defense....but our offense changes dramatically without him....thoughts We play guys both ways. The problem is that you want the best players out there but they don't help you much if they're gassed. What you need to do is to have a plan to get the two-way players breaks. We really consider our guys 1 and a half way players. We decide what side of the ball we need him on the most and have a planned rotation with his backup on the other side. Plan it ahead and make sure that both he and the backup clearly understand the rotation. Don't wait until they're tired. It's too late then. We have them responsible for the rotation rather than trying to remember to sub. It's too easy to get caught up in the game and forget. For example, if your TB also plays CB you might tell his backup, before the game, to take the 3rd defensive series. After that series tell hi when he rotates in next. It's worked for us.
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Post by fantom on Apr 22, 2013 19:05:28 GMT -6
Double post
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Post by fantom on Apr 22, 2013 19:05:46 GMT -6
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Post by buck42 on Apr 22, 2013 19:09:30 GMT -6
I have talked bout way and a half before and really that's what we do with pretty much everyone but our QB. We are a 2a school so not huge but not tiny. Its really our QB I am stuck on...I think we are better on D with him and better on O...just know we are screwed in big games and playoffs without him.
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Post by tigercoach11 on Apr 22, 2013 19:23:38 GMT -6
Have done it almost everywhere ive been. played in the 2012 SC game this past season with 24 on roster. 9 of my starting 11 were two way players and played ST. Conditioning throughout the offseason and summer is key. Cant just show up at two-a-days and expect to play iron man football. Most small schools here have to do it. Team that beat us in the SC game was the same way (about 30 on roster and 7-8 started both ways). Just accepted a job at a school one class larger and they reported 55 on varsity roster last year. Im not sure I know what to do with rosters that may have players that dont play iron man lol!
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Post by shortpunter on Apr 23, 2013 3:54:33 GMT -6
I have always tried to two platoon but it just seems that there are many players that need to play both ways. I also see a lot of our opponents playing their kids both ways. I know the argument that a fresh 2 is better than a tired 1 but sometimes the 2 just isn't ready for Friday night.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 5:38:31 GMT -6
I've never been in a position where we've been able to two-platoon. I coached at a school in IL that had around 1400 students and even then all four of our 4-4 LBs were offensive starters as well including one who was our QB. I also agree with the above point on conditioning. I quite frankly don't think the high school game is long enough for that to be an issue, especially considering most of your opponents are probably playing guys two ways as well. If you are in a situation where most of your opponents ARE two-platoon teams, the best piece of advice I got is to start platooning with your lineman and go from there.
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Post by newhope on Apr 23, 2013 6:12:03 GMT -6
Buck, as you probably know I'm a play them on both sides guy. We'll have a couple of guys who play most snaps on both sides. We'll have a second group that plays full time on one side and about 1/2 on the other. We'll have a third group that plays full time on one side and occasionally on the other. The rest practice on both sides but play on one side (although we'll get to the point when we know they'll only play on one side that we don't practice them but one way for the most part). As for the QB issue, been there, done that. We had one a few years ago we had to have on both sides...we played him sparingly on defense (crucial third down plays) in games we thought we would win (and not at all once we got a good lead). In the big games and in the playoffs, he played. Our thinking was, if we lose one of these it's over anyhow, so it won't matter if he's injured. Games on the line, he's gotta play. Championship at stake, he's gotta play. Playoffs, he's gotta play. Otherwise, what are you saving him for? I've got another one now--he may or may not be our starting QB (we fortunately have another) but he's probably the best DB to ever come through this school---he's going to play defense. He's a great offensive player---he's going to play offense somewhere.
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Post by blb on Apr 23, 2013 6:22:00 GMT -6
Our philosophy is we are going to Two-platoon as much as possible.
Have never been able to completely do it.
All our kids practice both ways.
Would like for our OL and QB to start only one way but can't always do it.
Especially in current situation - school enrollment 408 and Varsity roster usually in mid-20s.
HS games are only 48 minutes and we have what I consider to be an effective Conditioning program.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 7:16:03 GMT -6
I have studied this probably as much as anybody, and what I have found works for me is.
1. Get a rotation going. Our DL has a 3 man rotation at end and a 3 man rotation at DT. Most of those guys are OL, so they could use a breather. Some years we have more, but usually never less than a 3 man rotation. 2. For skill guys, rotate at least 2 per series, excluding the QB. Last season in the UBSW, we rotated the entire backfield by series or by downs even. When we got a 1st down, everybody but the tailback switched. The next first down, we switched the TB out and the other 3 starters came in. If we got another 1st down, all the starters went back in. 3. Don't play your QB on defense. I personaly know coaches that will go after your QB if he's on defense. Don't get me wrong, how bad azz would it have been to have Tim Tebow line up at MLB?! However, can you afford to lose him on the other side of the ball? When I wasn't UBSW, we were flexbone or shotgun option, so playing them on defense wasn't an option.
I think if you get proper rotation, you can minimize the risk created by having lesser/younger players in the game and you can minimize how tired your two way players get. Most years here, we have between 4-7 two way guys. Last year we were very good with 7 two way players. The year before we weren't very good and only had 3. Anyhow, it's all a management thing, how you manage it, and how you can get your kids to understand the managing of themselves (ie not playing when you're too tired etc.) that is the key.
Duece
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Post by coachirish on Apr 23, 2013 7:16:14 GMT -6
We are a smaller (2a) school so playing kids both ways is just a part of life. We probably play 6-8 both ways every year. Last season out QB also played most snaps as a DE. We have had success with it going both ways. The key for us though is a lot of conditioning.
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Post by msirishman on Apr 23, 2013 7:39:24 GMT -6
We also try and use a 3 man rotation for spots like DE, DT, CB, safety, etc...Unfortunately as smaller schools, sometimes you have to play more guys both ways than you would like. As much as I hate it, our QB is a starter on defense. He's our best defensive player, he has to be out there. But we try to get him some rest of defense when the situation will allow.
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Post by brophy on Apr 23, 2013 9:28:54 GMT -6
just food for thought, but if we make concessions on platooning, we often end up not platooning at all. Will there be 3 guys who are studs that have to get a lot of time both ways? Likely.
I've seen a lot of places that go this route, never really fully platoon and consequently never really develop depth or a solid program of players contributing. You end up with about 12-14 guys who really contribute to the program, rather than 20-25 (with underclassmen coming back with experience). If you have DI talent, he should play both ways, but who really has bonafide DI guys every year?
Linemen really don't need to go both ways.
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Post by mholst40 on Apr 23, 2013 9:42:34 GMT -6
Here is how we plan on "platooning" this year. We've never done this before, so we're going to give it a try and see how it works. Basically, we are going to identify guys who are definitely 2-way guys during the summer. When fall hits, we will have an idea of what guys are offense only, defense only or go both ways. Like brophy said, barring a stud lineman, we're going to try and platoon those guys and have completely separate groups.
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 23, 2013 9:55:20 GMT -6
I once had a QB that played MLB. 3 year starter at MLB, 2 year starter at QB.
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Post by blb on Apr 23, 2013 10:01:30 GMT -6
Another consideration is this:
We are not going to start any kid, especially an underclassmen, who hasn't earned it just because we don't want too many (however many that is) Two-way starters.
We play everybody as much as possible without hurting our chances to win, and play the Game Deciders until the game is decided.
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Post by brophy on Apr 23, 2013 10:04:04 GMT -6
the other thing with the platooning argument (thats important) is....it doesn't really matter/make sense if you're only doing it from Varsity.
If you're a program that calls yourself platooning, then it should ripple through to JV (because you'll have tons of kids who CAN play, who are being coached, but just can't break the starting varsity lineup), freshmen ball, and lower levels. When you're really platooning, you're not just coaching 1 team / 1 year, you're building players throughout their career (i.e. really reaching out to consolidate your feeders and doing spring/summer stuff with 8th graders)
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Post by fantom on Apr 23, 2013 10:47:56 GMT -6
Linemen really don't need to go both ways. I usually agree about true linemen. In our defense only the 3 tech and Nose are true linemen (and we've had years where the Nose was really a LB who couldn't remember pass coverages). So, if your defensive system allows you to use fewer linemen types that can help a lot. Even when we've been forced to use a starting OL at 3 tech we've used situational substitutions to help us out there (a 270 lb. run-stuffing DT isn't much use on 3rd and 9).
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Post by Coach.A on Apr 23, 2013 11:22:00 GMT -6
The obvious downside to having 2-way starters is if a 2-way player gets hurt, you just lost 2 starters instead of one.
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Post by newhope on Apr 23, 2013 11:39:03 GMT -6
One other thing to remember when playing them both ways: don't settle for a guy being a two way starter. Continue to work on developing the guy who is behind him with the hope that he'll eventually become the starter. Make sure he gets the practice reps and the game experience that will prepare him to be the starter.
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Post by RENO6 on Apr 23, 2013 12:01:14 GMT -6
Play your best 11.
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Post by holmesbend on Apr 23, 2013 12:13:47 GMT -6
just food for thought, but if we make concessions on platooning, we often end up not platooning at all. Will there be 3 guys who are studs that have to get a lot of time both ways? Likely. I've seen a lot of places that go this route, never really fully platoon and consequently never really develop depth or a solid program of players contributing. You end up with about 12-14 guys who really contribute to the program, rather than 20-25 (with underclassmen coming back with experience). If you have DI talent, he should play both ways, but who really has bonafide DI guys every year? Linemen really don't need to go both ways. ^^This. I want to get away from the 12-14 that contribute. It's a yearly thing for us. Rural/county school with about 715 here in KY. This past year (my 1st as the HC), we played about 10-12 that were actual contributors. As a matter of fact, we had 10 (all seniors) who didn't come off the field...EVER. Next year is just going to be one of those years...fact is, our Junior and Senior classes to be just aren't that strong (in numbers or talent, 10 total in those two classes...yes, 10). Our Frosh and Sophs, though? Many of them are just as good. We aren't going to be very good, so I'm thinking might as well not be very good with the young cats.... Brophy...I'm also thinking that if word starts spreading that we are actually trtying to play 20-25 kids, then that will serve as a recruitment tool for others? Kids aren't dumb.
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Post by newhope on Apr 23, 2013 12:39:28 GMT -6
For us, as a team that plays people both ways, it was never a 12-14 thing. We were trying to find more than 20. We felt like if we got 21 guys who could play, we would be really good. The lower that number got, the weaker we would be. Hopefully we'd also have some guys who weren't quite ready to play a great deal on offense or defense, but who could possible contribute to our special teams (maybe they were a little too small, a little too slow, a little too dumb...whatever...but we could find a spot on special teams for some of them without making those teams weak.
If you're playing them one way, you've got to have more than 22 who can play. Somebody's going to get hurt, somebody's going to need a rest, etc.
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Post by realdawg on Apr 23, 2013 13:02:34 GMT -6
Our best players play. We try to avoid having too many 2 way starters, but we have an all state OT who is also our best DL, he is gonna play both ways. I would especially try to limit the number of big boys playing both ways, but we are gonna win or lose with our best on the field. I also try to spell these guys at least one series per half. Especially early in the year when its hot, but its our job as coaches to get them in the best possible shape we can. The only player off limits is the QB. He doesnt play D. If as the poster mentioned his offense changes radically when he loses he QB, I wouldnt play him on D. Seems like from what he says you have a chance to win with the QB just playing O. Sounds like you dont have much of a chance if he goes down.
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newhc
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Post by newhc on Apr 23, 2013 13:16:16 GMT -6
I have had a QB like that before. We played him at Free Safety (3-5-3 Base Cover 3 Team). He was clearly a difference maker on both sides. I would rotate him about every 4 Downs at Free Safety. He didn't play any Special Teams, but I am sure he could have a been a great return man.
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