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Post by CoachCP on Apr 23, 2013 13:21:24 GMT -6
Program I was at most recently, and the level we played at (schools of 2000+ students with Fresh, Soph, JV and Var levels) was able to two-platoon. We had time when no one played both ways. Then this year, we had 4 players play both ways.
We want to maximize talent. Sometimes that means the best players play both ways. Sometimes it means they don't. Totally depends on the rest of the talent on the team and the level of the opposition.
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Post by brophy on Apr 23, 2013 14:03:11 GMT -6
also, the great unknown for all of this is the impact of coaching/teaching. When we sold out to platooning, there were SEVERAL guys that I would have NEVER have signed off on starting Varsity, let alone staying on the team come April (kids who never played the position, never played Varsity). I really don't know how you quantify specialization and forcing kids who are participating to become STARTERS. I don't know how you convince a coach that _____ is going to be your starter (whether you like it or not). I will say, though, that when you really commit to it, it makes a HUGE impact on your program. You will have a dozen kids immediately invested in the program. They now have a stake in the outcome of the program, they ARE going to get playing time. They can actually tell people they are on the football team. When you sell out, you've doubled practice reps through the week for a starter (the entire practice is devoted to just that position and just the looks that kid will get from the opponent). If I'm behind Brian Urlacher at linebacker, I know there is just no way I'll get on the field. Why try? Why invest in off season, in practice? I'll do enough to get by. If now Urlacher is going to play RB, the LB spot is open, and now the competition is wide open (with guys similar to my athletic ability), well...now I have a shot...now I'm going to fight for that spot! And of course, those other guys are thinking the same thing. Now, I also understand the reality here. All this is great and platooning is a coaching dream (you get to coach instead of herd cats). Holy moly, SCHEME and game planning now matter! The reality is none of this really means anything. Winning does. If putting your studs out there every gets the job done, thats really all you need. The only challenge with that is you really only cater to your studs and you'll be at the mercy of the talent that is in your program at the time. Having studs is great, but unless they have a great home life, they can also just break your freaking heart because they know they are running the show (lets not kid ourselves) because no one else is gonna see the field but them. blah, blah, blah brophyfootball.blogspot.com/2009/11/treatise-on-platooning.htmlcoachhuey.com/thread/5135
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Post by brophy on Apr 23, 2013 14:25:16 GMT -6
I refuse to lose with my best players standing beside me BC the don't play offense. going back to the OP, this is a really good question....WHAT makes a kid your best player? Is it sheer athleticism or something else? What does/would it take to make a kid dependable on the field in the clutch? There is obviously no right answer. Each program really is different. I think the platooning idea presents some really interesting questions Example 1 Its February. You're building your roster. Your stud LB is also your leading tailback. You've committed to 1 player - 1 position. Tank McStudly is your #1 tailback and your whole offense is centered on him. You have a JV player, Bucky Buckwheat who is a solid tackler but hasn't played Varsity yet. Given you've got 7 months to get him ready, how will this impact Bucky's workouts and participation in workouts? Do you think you can get this kid to become competent as the starting MLB in September? What would you do differently?
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Post by Coach Huey on Apr 23, 2013 15:33:32 GMT -6
We play one side of the ball. We have 514 kids in our high school.
We have zero - ZERO - division I athletes. We have a whole lot of garden variety, 3A Texas high school football players. Kids that just work hard, allow themselves to be coached, etc. and do their best their 4 years in high school and go on to be whatever in life - but not college football players.
We've won a lot of games simply because we physically and mentally are able to wear down these teams that have their "best players" on the field. We get so many reps at one side of the ball, we spend an entire week working solely on offense with these guys (and, solely on defense with our defensive players).
What we've found is that by the time a kid is a junior or senior he's pretty much as good a full-time linebacker as the proverbial "best athlete" would be if that kid were splitting time between linebacker and running back. We are able to coach the crud out of our kids with a narrow focus. Same time as the opponent, but twice the work... because we don't have split them between offense & defense.
On the rare exception we do have a tremendous talent, he would have a package of plays offensively (if he were a defensive player) or whatever. We do have a special short yardage unit that has our starting Mike as the fullback, and the starting OLB as the 2nd TE. It is a very condensed package with a handful of plays. We install it in fall camp then work it in 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there during the season. Very rare, very limited. They know their 4 plays and off we go.
Here is how we achieve this: Freshmen learn and play both sides of the ball. they practice separately from the others anyway (before school & during 1st period of school) so we split the practice in half o/d. We will play them all during their games on Thursday but not necessarily on both sides... just depends from year to year. The way we handle the freshmen would be how many here handle their teams that do play both sides of the ball.
With everyone else, we divide up into Offense & Defense.
We build our scout teams (JV players) with our Offensive players serving the defense every day and vice versa with our defensive players. 10-12 Offense wears white while defense wears red. We have individual periods where all players (var & jv) are going through individual. Same with group periods. Whenever we go good-on-good the jv will go against the jv. When it is "team" time - i.e. team vs scouts, then the white jersey JV players will go be the scout offense vs our D & the red jersey jv players will serve as the scout defense for our varsity offense.
On Monday, during individual & group "color goes with color" .. meaning I will have all varsity offensive players (white jersey) AND all jv offensive players (white jersey). On Tuesday, during individual & group "color goes opposite" ... meaning I will have all varsity offense (white) AND all jv Red. During team time, regardless of day, JV red shirts will be scout defense while JV white will be scout offense.
On Wednesday we do some different things and "service ourselves" meaning varsity is with varsity only & jv is with jv only.
What this gives us is our freshmen learning 2 positions. Our JV 'majoring' in one position but several may be learning a 2nd position. Not all JV players will flip on Tuesday. During JV games we may have a handful playing both ways at times. But, by practicing them on Tuesday with their opposite side, we keep just enough depth for games AND in the future if we need to change a kids position for whatever reason, he isn't totally oblivious to what we do on that side of the ball.
the whole staff has to buy in. You have to get over the "11 best must player" and "get my athletes on the field" stigma. The majority of the kids you will coach won't every play football at the next level. Many of them can be about as good as the next one if you can cut their work in half and really coach 'em up.
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 23, 2013 19:09:41 GMT -6
SC has an 8 quarter rule, so that makes platooning a bit easier.
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Post by JVD on Apr 23, 2013 19:16:05 GMT -6
We are small...20 kids or less most years. For us, it's a matter of, "When can we afford to take <<INSERT STUD HERE>> off the field?" - Special Teams? - Defense? When? - Offence....depending on series...did you just give a tell?
Taking from a basketball strategy, if we can get a few key players a break going into a quarter....we may have taken them out for 2 min. of game play, but they get 10 min. of rest.
My $0.02
JVD
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Post by brophy on Apr 23, 2013 19:38:14 GMT -6
We are small...20 kids or less most years. JVD there is never a perfect time to platoon, because no one will ever have a situation ideal until they invest in a 9 -12 program. I get the sub 2A schools who barely have enough male/female in school to field a team, but 400+ enrollment means there are kids to be had, they just have to be built and coached. Just like with any ROI / budgetary scenario, this stuff just doesn't fall out of the sky and into our laps. There is never an "ideal" situation to pay off your debt, you have a finite income and have to cut budget items to make it all work. Same principle here; every player isn't going to be a polished playmaker going into the season. We've got to get creative and make due with what we have. This is the same thing as saying "we'd throw the ball more but we just don't have any quarterbacks!" or "we'd focus more on special teams, but we just don't have any kickers!"....well, what in the hell are we doing to develop that talent the other 8 months out of the year? A program can't just be about RIGHT NOW, there needs to be some planning and forethought towards the 5 year plan. A risk would be if you have no control over your coaching staff; you don't trust the guys on staff to be there to build with you. There are legitimate reasons not to platoon, but often we discount it far too early before we've actually taken time to answer the hard questions.
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Post by dytmook on Apr 24, 2013 14:43:00 GMT -6
We tell kids to plan on playing 6 quarters. We want our best players on the field and we are not a big school. If we can get build depth, we will but we are likely going to have a lot of guys playing both ways. As the games get close and 'more' important games we will increase the use. For instance 2 years ago our QB was possibly our best cover corner so when we hit the playoffs and played spread teams he was out there covering. As the head coach said that he was not coming off the field if we made the state championship game. He was also our punter and kicker.
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Post by coachmoore42 on Apr 24, 2013 23:16:06 GMT -6
Linemen really don't need to go both ways. So, if your defensive system allows you to use fewer linemen types that can help a lot. We subscribe to both of these notions. That's part of the reason for running the 3-5-3...only 3 true DLmen on the field. Also, we rotate those guys as much as possible. A mediocre DLman doesn't usually hurt us in the middle of the field on 1st or 2nd down. Now if we need a stop, the best three are in there. We get in GL, the best three are in there. Other than that, we try to have guys who don't start on offense in there. To get the smaller guys a rest, we rotate at WR. I'm not taking a top DB out, because that's asking for trouble. Those two rotation patterns usually only leave two or three guys unable to get a rest. We have to get creative there, if they can't last the whole game.
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Post by Coach Huey on Apr 25, 2013 5:46:21 GMT -6
when you 2-platoon, you have to redefine "best" ... because, if you aren't training a kid full time at one position then how good do you know he can actually get? If all this average kid has to do is train being a nose guard, then is development will be twice that - meaning, that by the time he's on varsity he will be better than what he is now and what he will be on your current 'pace' playing him on both sides.
when you take reps away from a kid, he doesn't develop as much. whether or not you make him play a 2nd position or not, if someone else is playing 2 spots, that person is taking reps from the kid.
we also need to redefine "stud" ... because most of us just aren't going to have "studs". we're going to have garden variety, dime-a-dozen, high school football players. train those kids hard. develop them, streamline them and you will be shocked by what happens to your "best"... you start to get a lot more of these "best" players.
now, that guy you just couldn't have on the field in crunch time is a much more technically sound, fully developed player and you realize "hey, he's not a liability like we thought."
think brophy mentioned it ... you can't halfway do it, or talk about 'what if' and expect things to magically be different. player development takes work & commitment. it is hard to evaluate who your "best" are when you haven't developed any of them fully.
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 25, 2013 6:18:23 GMT -6
To pony off of Huey and Brophy: To the coaches that try to 2 platoon, but have said when push comes to shove; the best will play. Are you truly committing to the concept? Would you accept partial commitment from your players? Or commitment up to a point where 'things get tough'? If 6 AM work outs are expected, I am sure there are a lot of valid reasons why a kid would decide to sleep in, or missing summer work outs, or doing selling/fund raising, or attending team camp, or any of a number of things that part of the 'commitment'.
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Post by brophy on Apr 25, 2013 7:36:56 GMT -6
I should let this alone, but platooning is a fascinating to me.... but, for giggles, I think it is a worthwhile endeavor in the off-season to get the staff together and assess the entire talent pool 8 - 11 grades. Not only does it provide a fairly objective look at your talent but it also engages all your coaches (who likely feel they have no input in the program). This can be especially fun considering THE NFL DRAFT IS THIS WEEKEND. You can make a party out of it, really. Just go down the lineup and come to a consensus on a players absolute best position (where his value at ____ is exponentially better than any other spot), then if pressed, what is his 2nd best position on the other side of the ball. Just try that even if you aren't going to platoon. See what you come up with, see where you would have talent limitations and devise a plan on how you would actually be able to live with that lineup. Ever have a stud go down, and the rest of the team had to rally together to make up for the loss? Thats what they'll do when they know the stud(s) are no longer going to become the bailout "easy button" for playing football ("no need for me to try, _____ will make a play") I know that we often say that if you platoon, you double the practice time for a former backup, but actually it actually increases by 4. If you were backing up X at Corner, and now you platoon....not only do you get twice the reps, but you also eliminate (varsity) the reps you would've shared on offense. So now, ALL of practice is dedicated to that one position (technique, reads, and playing experience). What would you do different if you realistically be able to make adjustments and regroup your units after EVERY SERIES on game night? If you wouldn't do anything different, if you're just gonna run the same 4 plays regardless, then surely platooning may not yield enough of a return.
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Post by Coach.A on Apr 25, 2013 8:43:15 GMT -6
Many of them can be about as good as the next one if you can cut their work in half and really coach 'em up. you can't halfway do it, or talk about 'what if' and expect things to magically be different. player development takes work & commitment. it is hard to evaluate who your "best" are when you haven't developed any of them fully. I fully agree with Brophy and Huey on these points. I remember when I was a position coach a few years ago and the head coach told me he was thinking of starting our senior stud fullback both ways for a playoff game and having him start over the young DE I had spent all season developing. I have to admit, I was very insulted. Yes the senior stud FB was a better athlete, but it completely undermined my ability to coach an athlete who had been working with me all season. Needless to say, I convinced him to keep my young DE as the starter and he had his best game of the season...that same DE is now a senior with scholarship offers. That DE got more practice and game experience because we committed to developing him AND from a psychological standpoint, he knew that he was "our guy" and the team was depending on him to perform --> this built his confidence and motivated him to work harder and develop as a player.
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Post by coachbb on Apr 25, 2013 15:36:24 GMT -6
My thoughts on the issue:
1. Can you turn an average player into a good player by having him specialize? This is usually the best option because it can keep your other players fresh while developing depth. This also allows more kids to contribute which keeps the parents happy, keeps your other players fresh which helps you out at the end of the game, and keeps your players fresh for the end of the season.
2. You can still platoon and find special ways to keep your best players involved. Get them a special package of plays, or a certain series where they can go in on offense. Get your speedster on the field and run jet sweeps or counters to your jet sweeps.
3. Sub your bigs on defense, and your skill guys on offense. Don't mess with your OL, and rotate guys in at the skill positions. This is the easiest way to package your stud.
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Post by coachcastleman on Apr 26, 2013 9:17:57 GMT -6
I think that this question becomes more difficult the larger the team. At a small school, like us, you play kids both ways, simple as that. We only had 17 kids dress for most games last year 9-12, so you obviously play both ways. But if you are a large school and have a varsity roster of 80 kids, then the question is do you play your stud quarterback, running back, receiver, etc. on defense. He is your best over all football player. The debate is do you try to save him for offense, or do you play him because he is your best player. I guess the question could go the other way. Your stud linebacker is your best player on your team, do you play him at fullback too?
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coachmitts
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Always compete
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Post by coachmitts on Apr 27, 2013 7:32:23 GMT -6
We two platoon and have since the new HC came in four years ago. Now, there have been a couple of special players who have gone both ways. I think a total of 3 in the past four years. I know there is talk about having three or four go both ways this year because they are truly studs and can handle it. However, our qb is not of of them.
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Post by dytmook on Apr 27, 2013 10:27:34 GMT -6
To add to this I know a school around here who at least with defense when the other team crosses their 30 the best guys go in. They play D5 here in Ohio so not a big school here at all, but when push comes to shove they play their best.
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Post by Coach Huey on Apr 27, 2013 10:32:14 GMT -6
To add to this I know a school around here who at least with defense when the other team crosses their 30 the best guys go in. They play D5 here in Ohio so not a big school here at all, but when push comes to shove they play their best. again ... what is "best" when you are practicing all your players on both offense and defense? Would these "best" be the same kids if all you did was practice half of them on defense the entire time? Could that "2nd best" kid surpass the "best" kid if he were given more reps, more training, remove things from his plate (learning a 2nd position), he's fresher (since the other kid would be playing offense, too)? If you aren't selling out, then are you really sure you've got your actual best - i.e. doing the best thing for the team? is 1st series, 1st quarter best playing 2 ways the same as last series, 4th quarter best? is 1st quarter best playing one way closer to the same as 4th quarter best? what about 4th qtr one way best vs 4th qtr 2-way best? hard to compare when you really don't know.
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Post by fballcoachg on Apr 27, 2013 18:09:00 GMT -6
To add to this I know a school around here who at least with defense when the other team crosses their 30 the best guys go in. They play D5 here in Ohio so not a big school here at all, but when push comes to shove they play their best. There is another D5 that has about 50-60 kids out and they 2 platoon period. No subbing, just trust that practicing one side puts them in the best position to keep kids interested and winning. They have been very successful and I believe this philosophy and the COMPLETE commitment and buy in to it definitely contributes and is by no means a small factor.
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 27, 2013 18:53:06 GMT -6
To add to the debate, who here has spring/fall intersquad scrimmages?
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Post by fballcoachg on Apr 27, 2013 22:31:03 GMT -6
We are having one and I'm going to try and use it as an example of what we can do if we commit to it. I propose it every year and it gets thrown around then ultimately shot down but it's worth a try again this year. In reality we come pretty close as we only play a few both ways so I am going to bring that up...we might as well commit fully and up our practice time and reps.
Not like we are winning state championships the way we are doing it now!!
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Post by coachdawhip on Apr 28, 2013 9:44:11 GMT -6
I am a 2 platoon guy.
I have done it and taken kids who shouldn't be able to and made them able 2.
If you have a true stud, I'm talking about that kid whose name will be remembered on Saturdays, play them both ways.
I got rid of my ninth grade team for next year, because we are 2 platooning more kids do get experience on JV.
Athletically, my kids are better than everyone in our region but 1 team, so I have games to build depth for the last 5. I plan on starting some a lot of soph. on offense it is what it is.
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Post by tigeroption on Apr 28, 2013 13:29:52 GMT -6
We are a smaller (2a) school so playing kids both ways is just a part of life. We probably play 6-8 both ways every year. Last season out QB also played most snaps as a DE. We have had success with it going both ways. The key for us though is a lot of conditioning. Same exact situation. We are a 2a school and have had as few as 3 going both ways and as many as 10 going both ways. (Our QB is our starting DE) -Our philosophy is to have as few 1st years starters playing both ways as possible -Have as few DL/OL playing both ways as possible, especially the bigger guys -If you have to play your QB or best RB both ways have a quality back-up behind them to give them breaks and keep them as fresh as possible
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 28, 2013 17:49:54 GMT -6
It seems in the dozen or so threads on this topic that have come up through the years, coaches fail to recognize that trying to play kids only one way, and 2 platooning are not necessarily the same thing. The first is game day playing time decisions, the 2nd is a methodology of running a program.
Not saying either is inherently superior, just saying that keeping those separate will help facilitate discussion.
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Post by s73 on Apr 29, 2013 5:56:44 GMT -6
One thing that I think is a MAJOR factor in this decision making process has to do with who your opponents are.
I bought into the idea that if you 2 platoon lesser talent will grow due to extra reps and as a result, we will compete. And I have seen this work for many schools before, so I know the thought process is not faulty, but...... I think under certain circumstances (ours being one of them) this is not a good approach.
We 2 platooned about 4 years ago for 5 games and went 0-5 and it was not a "good" 0 - 5. We got smashed. The reason why I believe was because we are the smallest enrollment in our conference. Many times playing schools 1.5 to 2 x our size. Two platooning for us just widened an already existing talent gap.
We stopped doing platooning the last month of that season and went 2 -2. Then we stopped doing it all together and have made the play offs ever since. Last year we played 8 kids both ways due to our senior class being small but much more talented than our junior class and we had our best season in school history.
Now, don't get me wrong, I am not against it. I just don't belive it's for a smaller school that plays larger schools. That's a tough situation regardless but 2 platooning IMHO is not appropriate for THAT type of situation.
I just feel many factors must be considered when looking at this approach and who your opponents are needs to be one of those factors. If we were the same size or bigger than our opponents I would 2 platoon in a heart beat. But we need the most talent we can muster on the field at all times b/c most of our opponents from top to bottom are more talented than us. Ironically, that's why we platooned in the 1st place, thinking that we will overcome the talent gap with fresh kids. This did not work for us. We widened the talent gap too much to overcome.
This has been my experience for what it's worth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2013 13:05:49 GMT -6
I understand that the time will never be right, but don't the numbers? We will have a whopping 27 players this next year. There are 22 positions, that leaves 5 backups...so where are the other 17 going to come from? Duece
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Post by wingtol on Apr 29, 2013 14:19:53 GMT -6
I understand that the time will never be right, but don't the numbers? We will have a whopping 27 players this next year. There are 22 positions, that leaves 5 backups...so where are the other 17 going to come from? Duece About the same situation we are staring down the barrel at for next season. Not to mention we may have about 14 kids who even deserve to be on the field at all!!! No way am I throwing Slappy McSlappy out there just so we can platoon, I don't want to get charged with manslaughter after the first game! LOL If ya have the numbers and talent God bless ya, wish we could but it just would never work with our size and scope of talent. We may have kids going 3 way this year! Already working on designs for our t-shirts with Iron Mans chest plate and Laker Iron Men under it.
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Post by brophy on Apr 29, 2013 14:42:42 GMT -6
We 2 platooned about 4 years ago for 5 games and went 0-5 and it was not a "good" 0 - 5. We got smashed. Two platooning for us just widened an already existing talent gap. We will have a whopping 27 players this next year. There are 22 positions, that leaves 5 backups...so where are the other 17 going to come from??? and there's the thing. If you're only trying to win games ONE SEASON AT A TIME.......there will never be an appropriate time to platoon. If that is all you care about and you are confident you will have the pond stocked every season, then yeah, platooning may not be worth the investment. Are you the head coach of the Varsity team or are you the head coach of the High School PROGRAM? You will never have 30 seniors returning. The key point is what are you going to do to develop MORE talent because those players (experience / athletes) are finite. You have 5 studs every year. You have 12 juniors returning. You have 18 sophomores and 23 freshmen coming up. How are you going to get MORE PRODUCTION out of the entire talent pool? What would you do to develop the best team you could have in 2014? You're going to have to become more inclusive, get larger buy-in and commitment from players (and their families), more training, more teaching and a greater emphasis on performance from a down-by-down basis. Can you have 4 solid players dedicated on offense? Can you have 6 solid players dedicated to defense? Could you coach up the remaining players on the squad to become competent in that unit? That's where the coaching comes in (it takes a LOT of work). Coaching studs is easy. Getting that 2nd string guy on the field is where it matters. Can you coach 3 deep (or just starters)?
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Post by s73 on Apr 29, 2013 16:20:04 GMT -6
Brophy,
I get what you're saying and do not completely disagree.
However,
You are also assuming that if I am "gearing up for future years" and "coaching the program" that eventually the platooning thing will pay off. WHAT IF IT DOES NOT? What if I play all these kids and coach them up to THE BEST OF MY ABILITY and it does not work? We have a couple of losing seasons. Now maybe I don't have to worry about getting "buy in" from everybody b/c their aren't many "bodies" to work with anymore b/c nobody likes losing.
Bottom line is I tell my kids if you want to play you have to work hard to earn it b/c the best players will play PERIOD!
Furthermore, while you are focusing on 2014 what are you telling the seniors of 2013? Hey guys, bite the bullet for the program so we can be better overall for years to come (despite their being no guarantee of that) even though this is your one and only senior year?
Not looking for a fight but I learned in this game their is NEVER one way to do things EVER. If their was EVERYONE would be doing it. Some teams can platoon and it works for them, It does not work for me. Furthermore, I flip my lineman so now with platooning I would all but evaporate any depth at all what so ever. With next years group Im not even sold on having a great core of starters to begin with.
Also, you mentioned EVERYBODY has 4-5 studs. Umm.... I'm still looking. I might have 3 maybe next year and one of them is highly injury prone.
Again, not looking to fight, I just believe that different strokes for different folks. MY program wins and numbers have improved dramatically in the last 3 years and we have not 2 platooned.
We use special teams and smart substitutions to get more kids on the field and I always remind them when they get the chance to get in their MAKE THE CASE FOR YOURSELF TO STAY ON THE FIELD!
I respect your POV but every situation is different and I feel I am coaching up my team and my program. We went 21 -8 as a program last year.
Just my 2 cents.
PS - You are also insinuating that playing time guarantees greater motivation to work hard. Some kids don't work hard b/c they won't start BUT... SOME KIDS DON'T START B/C THEY WON'T WORK HARD. The more positions available means less depth at each spot which also means less COMPETITION. At my school we are not talented enough to not have stiff competition w/ one another year in and year out. Again, like the concept but the situation has to be appropriate. IMHO it is not when your school is smallest in the conference.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 29, 2013 17:27:03 GMT -6
Something that MUST be considered here is "why" your second (and more important third) string are 2nd and 3rd string. It is one thing to say "these kids will 'catch up' because of extra reps and focused training." I have to be honest though, on most HS football teams (particularly teams below the top enrollment classifications) I have been associated with, it isn't a lack of reps or technique that limit the playing time. It is a lack of strength, speed, quickness, explosiveness etc.
I am not sure 2 platooning solves that ill.
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