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Post by bulldog on May 26, 2006 10:04:40 GMT -6
I was wondering how it is in other areas - Do you find that your assistant coaches put in sufficient time studying your system and making themselves better coaches?
We have three different staffs - Varsity, JV and Frosh. We are installing a new offensive system and/or defensive system. We have had real issues our coaches not putting in the time to learn the system before getting on the field with the kids. We give them very detailed manuals. We have meetings and go-over the manuals months before practice starts. The coaches have the opportunity to come watch the Varsity practice to learn the system - and just as importantly the techniques that we want. They don't.
When we go and watch their team practice, we see that they don't really get it. Most of these guys are young (and may think they have more knowledge than they really do), and most are off-campus coaches that are very lightly compensated. When we go to clinics, many consider this 'party-time' and may not get much out of the sessions. I know it is not just our school, and that this type of coach seems to be VERY common here in northern CA.
I highly doubt that any of the coaches that I describe are on this board. I wondering, how is it in other areas? Do your assistants work hard to improve themselves and gain football knowledge? How do you motivate your assistants to improve themselves? As a dedicated assistant, what motivates you?
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Post by coachjd on May 26, 2006 10:08:06 GMT -6
3 of the last 4 young coaches we have hired are the same way. They do not want to put any time into it and take any help we offer with a grain of salt. We do have one young guy who coaches his rear off and does a great job and is not afraid to put extra time in.
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Post by phantom on May 26, 2006 12:06:57 GMT -6
It's tough finding new coaches. We hired a new guy last year and he's leaving. He came from a little country school and never seemed to adjust to the intensity here. At least he wasn't a complete disaster like a guy a few years ago who went from Head JV Coach to Assistant JV Coach to selling programs in one season. Oh, the stories.... Realistically, though, that probably hasn't changed that much over the years. Only a relatively small number of guys who get into coaching become lifers. I'm 52 and there are only four other guys in our league-HCs or assistants- who were coaching then and are still coaching.
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Post by swarm2ball on May 26, 2006 12:28:57 GMT -6
I like this thread- I see the same things myself, through my eyes as a varsity assistant. You may have one or two coaches who are attending all the area clinics, ask questions during meetings, watch film and so forth. But the majority of the coaches are out there to be called a coach and get some pay. I do not know who said it, but the quote is: "Are you out here for something to do, or to do something?" When I become a HC one day, I am going to be upfront and ask that and explain my philosophy.
How many head coaches on this board have an in-depth preseason meeting with STAFF ONLY and discusses their roles and responsibilities to the team as a HC would with his players? I would be interested to read your "cliff notes" on such a meeting.
Bulldog- I hear ya man. Now, I am not sure what your HS playing days were like, but if you have the same passion with football as a coach, I am sure this strikes a note. But think back to when we were HS players. There were probably 4 or 5 of us who were HARDCORE. Went to all the lifts, went to camps, ate well, and did anything we could do to be champions. Think about the times you wanted to ring the necks of your teammates who were the weak links. I guess there will always be those individuals (coaches and players) in the high school arena who are out there to be out there.
I know of a program in NC that has a staff of nearly 12 coaches. 6 or 7 of them were once HC's and two guys were GA's of D1 programs. That program is damn serious now. It all depends what school you are at. How important is football.
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Post by phantom on May 26, 2006 12:34:36 GMT -6
Swarm, is that Independence?
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Post by swarm2ball on May 27, 2006 12:46:57 GMT -6
No sir, Richmond County. The last several years (except last) they would play Independence in the western state semi-final. That would typically be the "real" state championship game before they would play the eastern champions.
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Post by bulldog on May 27, 2006 13:18:43 GMT -6
I went to an all-boys catholic HS that has had players like Lynn Swan, Barry Bonds and Tom Brady (just to name a few of the better-known players). The culture was ultra-serious as far as the athletes. Most of us played many years of Pop Warner and went to the school in good part because of the athletics. Unfortunately, the administration felt the HC job should go to an administrator who knew little about the game and was pretty poor at motivating players. They ran-off great coaches like Tim Walsh (HC at Portland State).
After playing in college, I was coaching at a JC and I was surrounded by coaches who were very serious about their craft. I loved the staff. I moved and joined a HS staff where the HC was a former pro player and D1 assistant for several programs. He has taught me a ton about how to study the game and how to critically analyze opponents. I have also benefitted greatly from his contacts and his yearly visits to a major college's spring program.
However, he is one-of-a-very-few in my view - at least as far as local HS's. I am surrounded by coaches that do not know the playbook that they were handed. It drives me crazy when I take the time to produce a defensive manual that has complete details about the system - including techniques, reads, drills, coaching points, etc. If they just read and understand the manual they should be OK. Instead, I walk around and hear the coaches making crap up on the field. I don't want to correct them in front of their players, but . . . when they make crap up, then don't realize how that impacts the overall defense. The game has become much more technical at all levels since I started coaching over 20 years ago. I just don't see many coaches that try to keep up - let alone get ahead by having a deep understanding of the game to give their kids an advantage. I am one of those geeks that have read Football Physics, The science of the game (Tim Gay), and I started using computers for scouting and tendancies before any commerical software was available many years ago. So, I know I am a little nuts. I have seriously considered moving-on, just so that I can have a few coaches around me who are serious about the game. I take it as a bad sign, when the kids understand our system before my other coaches.
I can see from this thread that many of you dedicated coaches experience the same frustration. Not that it makes me feel better, but at least I know that it is the same in a lot of other places.
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Post by phantom on May 27, 2006 14:06:23 GMT -6
No sir, Richmond County. The last several years (except last) they would play Independence in the western state semi-final. That would typically be the "real" state championship game before they would play the eastern champions. Oh, Richmond. Yeah, we knew that they were serious when we saw that Ed Emory was their coach. We came down and scrimmaged them in a jamboree a few years ago. They were a tough, physical football team. We scrimmaged Independence the next year and we weren't very good and they were and it got ugly. I have a lot of respect for NC football.
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Post by 1whoknows on May 27, 2006 14:56:42 GMT -6
No sir, Richmond County. The last several years (except last) they would play Independence in the western state semi-final. That would typically be the "real" state championship game before they would play the eastern champions. Richmond is serious, but they cannot match Indy's attention to detail. Tommy is a grinder and he has made the coaches in Charlotte try to follow his lead. That is why you are seeing teams like Myers Park and Providence compete with and win at Richmond. Playing Richmond was once feared. And it is definitely all about Assistants. Richmond has great ones and Tommy staff has been together for 20+ years. That what has made them great.
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Post by airman on May 27, 2006 19:34:48 GMT -6
I was wondering how it is in other areas - Do you find that your assistant coaches put in sufficient time studying your system and making themselves better coaches? We have three different staffs - Varsity, JV and Frosh. We are installing a new offensive system and/or defensive system. We have had real issues our coaches not putting in the time to learn the system before getting on the field with the kids. We give them very detailed manuals. We have meetings and go-over the manuals months before practice starts. The coaches have the opportunity to come watch the Varsity practice to learn the system - and just as importantly the techniques that we want. They don't. When we go and watch their team practice, we see that they don't really get it. Most of these guys are young (and may think they have more knowledge than they really do), and most are off-campus coaches that are very lightly compensated. When we go to clinics, many consider this 'party-time' and may not get much out of the sessions. I know it is not just our school, and that this type of coach seems to be VERY common here in northern CA. I highly doubt that any of the coaches that I describe are on this board. I wondering, how is it in other areas? Do your assistants work hard to improve themselves and gain football knowledge? How do you motivate your assistants to improve themselves? As a dedicated assistant, what motivates you? you have created as we vs they setting. see I do not believe in seperate staffs. why should they buy into anything if they are just the JV or Fr coach. i believe in one staff. now are there fr and jv games, sure. however, a coach who coaches the freshman, is also a varisty coach imo. one staff, all working together, to advance one program. united we stand, divided we fall apart. just my two cents.
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Post by futurecoach on May 27, 2006 21:30:27 GMT -6
Just to give another side to this. Being a new coach I want to learn what ever I can from the high school and local college. I'm young in the fact that I'm entering my 2nd season as a coach and I do want "do something." I'm not a young guy though. I'm 30 years old, a college student, married with 2 kids. I don't have much time as it is and my HC understands that. He recommends that we student coaches get up to the high school but he doesn't require it. He started as a student coach himself and realizes the time struggle to balance everything. If it hadn't been for sites like this and Jerry Campbell I don't know what I'd have done. My desire is great to learn as much as I can about this great game and I know that there is ALWAYS something to learn. As much as I like being called coach I'm not out there for something to do. When I started last season I was given a playbook and I studied it intensely. I asked questions whenever I could. I did do everything I could possibly do to learn. I still feel like I didn't do enough and am not doing enough now per se due to coaching my daughter's t-ball team (this is my only year doing this).
To make a comment about what motivates me. My past motivates me. I won't discuss it in the main board, pm me if you want to know, but that drives me. I want to eventually be a Head Coach on the high school level.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 27, 2006 21:58:03 GMT -6
I find myself in a unique situation. I actually started coaching coaching at the collegiate level first, so when I decided I was through with the grinder, and wanted to work with younger kids, I had no ego whatsoever. To me, I wasn't really impressed with being a "varsity" coach versus a "freshman" coach. In actuallity, everything was a step down ( a step that I chose to make) from what I had been doing in most peoples eyes anyway, so it didnt matter to me.
I will say that I am a bit taken back by the lack of continuing education I have encountered at the H.S. level. Many H.S. coaches I have encountered feel that they know what they need to, and don't try to better themselves in the offseason. That is a bit disappointing.
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Post by bulldog on May 27, 2006 23:41:30 GMT -6
I was wondering how it is in other areas - Do you find that your assistant coaches put in sufficient time studying your system and making themselves better coaches? We have three different staffs - Varsity, JV and Frosh. We are installing a new offensive system and/or defensive system. We have had real issues our coaches not putting in the time to learn the system before getting on the field with the kids. We give them very detailed manuals. We have meetings and go-over the manuals months before practice starts. The coaches have the opportunity to come watch the Varsity practice to learn the system - and just as importantly the techniques that we want. They don't. When we go and watch their team practice, we see that they don't really get it. Most of these guys are young (and may think they have more knowledge than they really do), and most are off-campus coaches that are very lightly compensated. When we go to clinics, many consider this 'party-time' and may not get much out of the sessions. I know it is not just our school, and that this type of coach seems to be VERY common here in northern CA. I highly doubt that any of the coaches that I describe are on this board. I wondering, how is it in other areas? Do your assistants work hard to improve themselves and gain football knowledge? How do you motivate your assistants to improve themselves? As a dedicated assistant, what motivates you? you have created as we vs they setting. see I do not believe in seperate staffs. why should they buy into anything if they are just the JV or Fr coach. i believe in one staff. now are there fr and jv games, sure. however, a coach who coaches the freshman, is also a varisty coach imo. one staff, all working together, to advance one program. united we stand, divided we fall apart. just my two cents. Airman, we really have 3 different staffs . . . it's not that we create the purposely separation - it is just natural. I have read on this board that many teams play their frosh or sophs in varsity games. We can't do that. Once a player plays one snap of varsity, he is a varsity player for the rest of the year and connot drop back down. Since the kids cannot be integrated, it makes it tough to have an integrated staff. The JV's play before the Varsity on friday nights, but the frosh play on thurdsay. The Varsity starts workouts in December. The JV starts in May. The Frosh starts in June. I wouldn't say that there is a wedge between the staffs, I would just say that we are not quite in synch. The frosh and JV coaches are given every opportunity to go to clinics, learn, ask questions, read what they are given, invited to come to varsity practices - it's just that many do not take these opportunities. The coaches are expected to buy into the program. If they don't, they won't last. We have had turnover for this exact reason. And many guys that have applied, have not been hired because it was believed that they would not be 'team players'. I really like the model of separate defensive and offensive staffs - and coaching the JVs and Varsity in separate practices, but I'm not the HC. Airman - I'd be real curious if you or anyone else faced this scenario and has a good solution to enhance the staff unity . . . and decrease the apathy. Many of the frosh coaches are at that level because they don't/won't/can't put in the time to become a better coach. I think if they were pushed, some would give it up. And they have value to the program because of the type of people they are - and how they motivate/lead the kids. There are some guys that don't have much interest in becoming better -- but I'd hate to lose a guy who is passionate - like futurecoach - because we pushed him to give time that he could not allocate.
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Post by coachcalande on May 28, 2006 4:05:41 GMT -6
I find myself in a unique situation. I actually started coaching coaching at the collegiate level first, so when I decided I was through with the grinder, and wanted to work with younger kids, I had no ego whatsoever. To me, I wasn't really impressed with being a "varsity" coach versus a "freshman" coach. In actuallity, everything was a step down ( a step that I chose to make) from what I had been doing in most peoples eyes anyway, so it didnt matter to me. I will say that I am a bit taken back by the lack of continuing education I have encountered at the H.S. level. Many H.S. coaches I have encountered feel that they know what they need to, and don't try to better themselves in the offseason. That is a bit disappointing. outstanding post- I agree that there are alot of em out there that dont continue to study and learn...passion is the thing that seems to be missing. anyone can say they love football but man showing it is completely different. it amazes me when a staff goes to a clinic (or doesnt ever!) and half of em just party the whole time and dont learn a thing.
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Post by groundchuck on May 28, 2006 5:27:02 GMT -6
I go to just about every clinic. There are the guys I see there who are junkies like me. Then there are staffs that I never see. This is a good thread!
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Post by blb on May 28, 2006 7:47:04 GMT -6
When I interview an assistant coaching candidate, I try to find out why he wants to coach football, and why at our school. I also make plain the time (and other) demands being part of our staff will require.
However, sometimes (as a new head coach) you inherit a staff who may be "set in their ways" and resistant to change. Sometimes the head coach has little to say in who is hired for teaching-coaching positions, but must accept assigned personnel, and attempt to train them to some level of competence. And sometimes you're lucky to get a warm body off the streets. The latter appears to be especially true in urban and smaller schools.
It's just like when we were players ourselves, as swarm2ball noted above. You are going to have some guys who are passionate and intense about football, and will do whatever it takes to be successful. There will be others who like the game or coaching in general and want to be a part of it, but it is not a driving force in their lives.
In the last category often are beginning teachers whose willingness to coach may help them get the teaching position. After awhile, however, they may discover that the demands of coaching football may be more than they can take, or they no longer need the additional money.
I usually give assistant coaches two years to achieve a level of coaching maturity that allows them to be critical, contributing members of the staff. If not, then a change may have to be made and a replacement found - which is not always easy - and the training begins anew.
If you are in an area close to a college or university, you may be able to get former players or PE majors from their coaching classes on a coaching-only basis. This is usually just a short-term solution, however.
Sometimes you have to retain an individual who may be less than what you would like, but better than starting over, particularly if he is a member of the faculty.
When I was a young coach at my first head coaching job, the AD (a former football coach himself) told me, "You have to realize that football is not as important to everybody as it is to you." While I originally had trouble swallowing that whole, it has helped me keep some perspective and avoid an ulcer or two since.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 28, 2006 8:51:20 GMT -6
BLB..how true.
The frustrating thing is when you are new, and younger than other guys on the staff (coordinators and such) and yet you get that feeling.
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Post by tothehouse on May 28, 2006 10:19:19 GMT -6
What about the need for coaches, but the fact that many of them cannot commit to the job as much as you can? Sometimes you need coaches because others can't coach or other coaches are not on campus coaches and their jobs force them out.
Each year, it seems, staffs must "coach coaches". You put a lot of energy into your craft and now you have to coach an adult to do it the way your program demands.
Bottomline is you get things done. Figure out the persons strength and give them a little responsibility. If they cannot do it the way you want as an HC don't hire them and get it done with the guys you have.
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Post by los on May 28, 2006 12:20:33 GMT -6
Hey, ya'll our giving me flashbacks of playing high school football with all the talk of NC and richmond co. While playing at Pinecrest back in the 69-71 seasons we played some of the schools that combined up to make richmond co. Bowman, Rockingham,Hamlet! Tough competitors for sure.
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Post by coachcb on May 28, 2006 13:51:02 GMT -6
Nothing upsets me more than coaches who take an apathetic approach to their jobs. Coaching is a profession and should be treated as such. If you're just one of those guys out there collecting a stipend, then get off of the field- there are younger guys that would gladly take your jobs.
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Post by airman on May 28, 2006 16:18:46 GMT -6
you have created as we vs they setting. see I do not believe in seperate staffs. why should they buy into anything if they are just the JV or Fr coach. i believe in one staff. now are there fr and jv games, sure. however, a coach who coaches the freshman, is also a varisty coach imo. one staff, all working together, to advance one program. united we stand, divided we fall apart. just my two cents. Airman, we really have 3 different staffs . . . it's not that we create the purposely separation - it is just natural. I have read on this board that many teams play their frosh or sophs in varsity games. We can't do that. Once a player plays one snap of varsity, he is a varsity player for the rest of the year and connot drop back down. Since the kids cannot be integrated, it makes it tough to have an integrated staff. The JV's play before the Varsity on friday nights, but the frosh play on thurdsay. The Varsity starts workouts in December. The JV starts in May. The Frosh starts in June. I wouldn't say that there is a wedge between the staffs, I would just say that we are not quite in synch. The frosh and JV coaches are given every opportunity to go to clinics, learn, ask questions, read what they are given, invited to come to varsity practices - it's just that many do not take these opportunities. The coaches are expected to buy into the program. If they don't, they won't last. We have had turnover for this exact reason. And many guys that have applied, have not been hired because it was believed that they would not be 'team players'. I really like the model of separate defensive and offensive staffs - and coaching the JVs and Varsity in separate practices, but I'm not the HC. Airman - I'd be real curious if you or anyone else faced this scenario and has a good solution to enhance the staff unity . . . and decrease the apathy. Many of the frosh coaches are at that level because they don't/won't/can't put in the time to become a better coach. I think if they were pushed, some would give it up. And they have value to the program because of the type of people they are - and how they motivate/lead the kids. There are some guys that don't have much interest in becoming better -- but I'd hate to lose a guy who is passionate - like futurecoach - because we pushed him to give time that he could not allocate. if you are 3 different staffs, then what they do should not bother you. now i do not now your situation, but how does different starting times effect becoming one as a staff? you are just not going to get people to follow you unless you give them a reason. people today want to feel a part of some thing. it is my guess because they do not feel a part of what is going on, is why you have such large turnover. there is a saying, when you point your finger at someone else, there is 3 pointing right back at you. places with large turnover(regardless of the buisness or organization) often look that those quitting. successful businesses look inside out first. not outside in. as you are finding out, they do not have to buy into what you want. i would go back and ask them why they left. maybe you find it was just them or maybe you will find some thing about the overall program. successful buinessman Zig Ziglar always says, you can have eveything you want in life, if you just help enough other people get what they want. woody hayes in a book I read said he used to give the responsibility of special teams to his assitant coaches. each coach was responsible for his special team. it made them feel important and gave them some thing to really be involved with. the best place I was at was where I was assinged a mentor coach. a experienced staff member worked with me. I have taken that into my own philosophy. treat others how you would like to be treated.
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Post by coachjd on May 28, 2006 18:14:56 GMT -6
This is an outstanding thread.
I know there has been some other threads and young coaches took some shots, me being one of them. In no way am I trying to say that all young coaches are bad, but we have had our share. We have also had to get rid of a coach who was on staff for 15+ years that just never pulled his share of the load and is now running our Jr High program and doing very well.
I really liked what BLB has to say about helping new coaches and giving them 2 years to fit in. We all have different view points, philosophies, etc.... and when a new guy comes onto a new staff the quicker they try and understand their roll and committ to the philosophy of the program (no matter if they agree with it or disagree with it) the better the new coach will fit in. And at the same time, the sooner we try and explain what we are trying to accomplish and help the new coach assume their new role the better everyone should be.
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Post by tog on May 28, 2006 18:29:48 GMT -6
if something needs done, do it if someone else is doing something you can help with, help even if it sucks
do it
there
easy
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Post by bulldog on May 28, 2006 19:17:05 GMT -6
We don't have a lot of turnover - we have guys not being asked to come back. Employee retention is an issue for some places, but not on our staff. When we lose guys, it is due to life changes, not coaching issues. We have lost one coach to another program in 5 years - and that was because I refused to play his kid in front of better players, just because he was a coach's son. I have worked for many high tech startup company's and I can tell you from personal experience (in this field anyway), those that quit were usually uncomfortable with level of the committment.
The issue here is the JV/Frosh coach's desire to make themselves better coaches - their committment to the team and the program. It's not a matter of treating them right - or having an us vs. them mentality - or a lack of responsibility. Cliches' aside, this is solely about the coaches at the lower levels accepting their responsiblity to learn the system, and to get better at coaching technique - to actually show some passion about their jobs. Passion that they do not have, yet ask their kids to possess. The younger coaches are given the opportunity to learn, have eager mentors and have a nuturing environment. For the most part, they CHOOSE not to take the opportunities. I would love the opportunity to teach them the game and pass along knowledge.
For example, we just finished spring practice. The Frosh HC (who is new to his job) made a few of the practices -- so did one of his assistants. That's fine, because they had job conflicts. There are three other coaches who made zero practices and chose not to show-up. They are going to install a new offense and a new defense this year and they have two meeting's worth of knowledge. None of these guys has played-in or knows the system. They were invited to every single one of our practices and encourage to attend to learn the system and see it installed.
I really don't understand the apathy. I wonder why they coach - what is their motivation? I can see how important coaching is to them. It isn't the sytem or the program - it's the coaches and their attititude. These are mainly younger guys who feel that bonding with the players is more important than actually knowing the technical aspects of their job. (although apathy is not limited to the younger guys).
Quite frankly, I wish it was as simple as following the Golden Rule or giving them a motivational speech (they already have the responsibility of coaching a position). They are treated well, and are given every opportunity - they just choose to do the minimum. I'm sure we have all coached players like this as well.
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Post by coachcb on May 28, 2006 19:39:55 GMT -6
I am a young coach (four years experience) who does everything he can to be around the game and learn. I go to clinics, I watch college teams practice, etc.... If you don't have a passion for coaching and aren't willing to put the time into it then you're only shorting the players. That's my problem with these kinds of situations; the kids are the ones that are going to pay the price if you can't improve yourself. I don't think that there is any excuse for it in most cases- you have been given a position/job, why not be the absolute best you can be?
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Post by coachjolly on May 29, 2006 5:16:57 GMT -6
I find that the "off campus" or vol. coaches find the job as a "neat hobie", they think that it's cool to be a coach. They really don't get what it is all about. Let them go!!!!! This takes time but ....you know the process, tell them in no uncertain terms, blah blah blah. they still don't come around. let the heads roll. I have found that any program is better off being short handed without them, than they are having to baby sit them. I have always ended up haveing to RETEACH the things that the kids were suposed to have been taught etc. You start cutting heads, the others will conform or quit. Trust me you'll be better off.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2006 8:28:41 GMT -6
I'm an off-campus coach and DC. We have 2 volunteer coaches, both of whom were Division 1 assistants and now retired. They don't want the money--they volunteer because they can afford to volunteer and because they would rather see us use the money to get a few more frosh coaches.
I am off-campus because I don't think I could do the job I want to do if I had to teach 5-6 periods per day. I may spend 4 hours a day in the office with no need to ever show up for a class, so work gets done. I run a few businesses so I don't have to teach anymore.
It's no hobby, some guys are volunteers because the school can't afford to pay them and some are volunteers because they can afford to be. I guarantee our 23-1 record over the past 2 years has something to do with volunteers and off-campus coaches.
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Post by coachjolly on May 29, 2006 9:32:15 GMT -6
Thats great that you are different than the MAJORITY of guys that I spoke of. Keep up the Great work. I guess I'll keep you on. I still stand on my statement.
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Post by coachcb on May 29, 2006 10:14:01 GMT -6
I have seen it from volunteers and from guys collecting a stipend. I knew a guy who was a paid assistant HC OC that didn't bother to show up for half of the required Saturday/Sunday film sessions during the actual season.
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Post by bulldog on May 29, 2006 13:50:12 GMT -6
I am also an off-campus coach and DC. There is a lot of us.
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