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Post by rcole on Oct 9, 2012 8:33:29 GMT -6
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Post by cqmiller on Oct 9, 2012 8:55:05 GMT -6
Time for me to find a new career... we have the "losers" run every time we have a competition at practice. Yesterday we were working on receivers bodying up DB's on fades and slants since we are terrible at it, so we split the kids into two even groups and each got to go on offense and defense. The team that had the most offensive catches (or least defensive stops) had to run an extra sprint at the end of practice.
Maybe I'll be fired, drawn & quartered, then tarred & feathered
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 9, 2012 8:56:26 GMT -6
I did not read the article but physical punishment is not bullying or corporal punishment unless it's a rediculous amount of it. Students/players need to be held accountable for their actions and there needs to be consequences. Physical punishment such as running, push ups, sit ups, etc not only work as a punishment, but also can help the player get in better shape, which makes him a better player. Punishments that in no way help a student/player in any way are what us as coaches and teachers should stay away from. Now if a coach is belittling a player while he punishes them then thats a different story.
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Post by mitch on Oct 9, 2012 9:21:10 GMT -6
Unbelievable.
I'm with CQ. Time for me to do something else.
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Post by optionoline on Oct 9, 2012 9:25:07 GMT -6
We do competitive o-line versus d-line drills every day.
Losers do pushups. We finish by picking a 1 and picking a 2 each. They go head to head and the whole unit does pushups (including me) if our side loses.
False start, whole team does push ups
Encroachment, push ups
Dropped balls, individual push ups.
I ain't leaving, the b@$*@%$ have to push me out the door.
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Post by CS on Oct 9, 2012 9:30:22 GMT -6
Unbelievable. I'm with CQ. Time for me to do something else. No you just need to move to the south or stay here. That crap would never fly around here |
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Post by mitch on Oct 9, 2012 9:33:34 GMT -6
I'm in a football state. It just irritates me to no end the direction our education system as a whole is taking.
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Post by rcole on Oct 9, 2012 9:33:45 GMT -6
Put this situation side-by-side with the other thread/article about the players quitting/coach firing. Where are we headed?
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Post by mitch on Oct 9, 2012 9:36:28 GMT -6
That's my point.
This kind of stuff popping up almost daily, along with the ridiculous teacher accountability crap is really making me sour.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 9, 2012 11:45:44 GMT -6
rcole - on my board...this is a major topic of discussion (along with the coach firing...which is a local story for us).
Are there people out there trying to get rid of the game of football? Seems like it.
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Post by optionoline on Oct 9, 2012 12:09:26 GMT -6
Are there people out there trying to get rid of the game of football? Seems like it. Yes, yes there are. |
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Post by airman on Oct 9, 2012 16:52:58 GMT -6
It is the end of the world was we know it and I feel fine.
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Post by coachroberts99 on Oct 10, 2012 8:55:52 GMT -6
I always find things like this fascinating.... I'm probably in a minority on here, but a lot of the examples people have given are massively different.
Having a team exercise, where one group knows that if they "lose" they will do 20 press-ups is very different to one player getting a totally subjective and almost random amount of punishment exercises to do. A team exercise doesn't treat anyone differently, it's not targetted or individual. This was.
According to the article "the coach allegedly forced a sophomore football player to run wind sprints, hills and laps as punishment"..... At some point it DOES become a form of physical abuse. Let's say you have a heavily overweight OL show up 5 minutes late, it's 45 degrees C outside and you make him run laps until he's sick.
The kid collapses and dies.
So are we now saying the same thing "oh this is silly, all I did was make him run laps". Back in the day "water was for wimps", but now that shlt will get you sued and rightly so.
I of course understand the concern of coaches that our work and control can be undermined, but likewise these things are never black and white, and the fact is children are not small adults, they have massive physical and emotional differences and before we potentially single out one player for comments which kids make with dissproportionate punishments is a form of bullying and abuse.
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Post by carookie on Oct 10, 2012 9:13:03 GMT -6
I always find things like this fascinating.... I'm probably in a minority on here, but a lot of the examples people have given are massively different. Having a team exercise, where one group knows that if they "lose" they will do 20 press-ups is very different to one player getting a totally subjective and almost random amount of punishment exercises to do. A team exercise doesn't treat anyone differently, it's not targetted or individual. This was. According to the article "the coach allegedly forced a sophomore football player to run wind sprints, hills and laps as punishment"..... At some point it DOES become a form of physical abuse. Let's say you have a heavily overweight OL show up 5 minutes late, it's 45 degrees C outside and you make him run laps until he's sick. The kid collapses and dies. So are we now saying the same thing "oh this is silly, all I did was make him run laps". Back in the day "water was for wimps", but now that shlt will get you sued and rightly so. I of course understand the concern of coaches that our work and control can be undermined, but likewise these things are never black and white, and the fact is children are not small adults, they have massive physical and emotional differences and before we potentially single out one player for comments which kids make with dissproportionate punishments is a form of bullying and abuse. Obviously at some point everything we do can become a form of physical abuse if done to an extreme, but I red nowhere that led me to think this was the case. If it were implied anywhere in here that the punishment was overblown or putting the kid in risk then I mustve missed it The issue at hand is that the school district is treating ANY form of physical punishment as being disproportionate and bullying. This is illogical as kids are participating in a physical activity, and as such you are already trusting the coach to have the kids perform physical tasks. So while you are right that it is possible for a coach to put kids at risk by being overly demanding; that does not appear to be the case here. Moreover, if you trust the coach to make physical demands of the players; then in turn you should trust his judgement to institute forms of punishment which require physical activity. |
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Post by coachroberts99 on Oct 10, 2012 9:33:25 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong, I'm playing a bit of devils advocate on this, but likewise as you alude to, we don't know:
1) What was said by the player
2) Is this inkeeping with what this coach usually does in terms of punishments?
3) How much stuff the kid had to do, 1 of each is one thing, but could have been a lot more.
I'm just trying to offer some check and balance to everyone saying "we always make the losers run a lap" or "ohh, back in the day we had to run to Peru and back if anyone missed a block".... That already we're in a position where we are telling kids what to do, and likewise I can easily imagine a situation where this kid says (and remember, he's a child!);
"Oh man, last game we stank, we should never have run the ball so much"
And then he's going home to his parents saying "I had to run 10 laps, 20 hill sprints and 30 wind sprints.... But Tommy said the same thing last week and he only had to do 3 burpees."
As a few guys have said, should be written down, codified then at least every player will be treated the same and would remove a large aspect of the potential for bullying and singling out kids which obviously will happen with some coaches "I don't like that boy, he's got a bad attitude" when in reality thats totally in the coaches mind!
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Post by mattyg2787 on Oct 10, 2012 15:44:49 GMT -6
In this case, we don't know the whole story. But this as corporal punishment is very different to what it used to be back in the day when it meant actually hitting kids. In this case, if the kid really doesn't want the punishment, quit. But it sets them up for life as a quitter.
And that band email has sent me off, especially that last paragraph. Everyone wins in life? Tell that to the eight dudes I beat out for my new job. Did they win? No. I won because of hard work which is exactly how everything in life works
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by coachroberts99 on Oct 11, 2012 3:07:05 GMT -6
In this case, if the kid really doesn't want the punishment, quit. But it sets them up for life as a quitter. Again, sorry to be the bleeding heart liberal here, but again, children are not small adults. I'm only 30, but I'm old enough to say "sod this, I quit" if I don't like something. However as we know often the coach can be the only strong role model in a young mans life, there might be huge pressures from friends and family for him to play and suceed in sport..... What does he really know what abuse is?! If Coach says this is normal, I guess it must be??? But isn't it funny how a lot of kids will put up with physical and sexual abuse in some horrific situations?? Why don't they stroll into the police station and say "my foster parents beat me" or "my coach touches me up"? Because when you're a child you're not equipped to often make such decisions, so certainly the idea that "if a kid doesn't like it, he will quit" just doesn't always ring true. Again, talking in a wider aspect to this story, which I'm sure probably is the district being a bit OTT, I don't know... however this does raise massive issues which us as coaches need to look at and challenge ourselves on. |
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Post by wingtol on Oct 11, 2012 7:13:28 GMT -6
As we talked about this at practice yesterday as a staff our HC simply said "When football as we know it dies in America, that is a signal to the rest of the world that we are ripe for a foreign invasion."
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Post by wybulldogs on Oct 11, 2012 7:16:07 GMT -6
Sadly this country is trying to raise an entire generation of Ralph Wiggums.
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Post by blb on Oct 11, 2012 7:26:45 GMT -6
Many years ago Woody Hayes said, "Football is the last bastion of discipline in America."
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Post by PSS on Oct 11, 2012 13:07:31 GMT -6
Set rules. Have consequences for breaking the rules.
Don't have so many rules that you can't enforce them but have rules that you can teach young men the lessons / values of hard work, honesty, and integrity.
Should running be a consequence of breaking a rule. Absolutely! It is a physical game that requires you to be have conditioning to participate.
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Post by coachroberts99 on Oct 11, 2012 13:28:26 GMT -6
Should running be a consequence of breaking a rule. Absolutely! It is a physical game that requires you to be have conditioning to participate. I totally agree with setting rules, but as for the last part.... if it requires conditioning to participate and succeed, then is there a school of thought which says why are we saying wind sprints, hill sprints etc are punishments?!? Surely everyone should be doing them? They will make you a stronger, tougher player. Be like punishing kids in a quiz team by asking them questions, lol! |
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Post by PSS on Oct 11, 2012 13:36:11 GMT -6
Should running be a consequence of breaking a rule. Absolutely! It is a physical game that requires you to be have conditioning to participate. I totally agree with setting rules, but as for the last part.... if it requires conditioning to participate and succeed, then is there a school of thought which says why are we saying wind sprints, hill sprints etc are punishments?!? Surely everyone should be doing them? They will make you a stronger, tougher player. Be like punishing kids in a quiz team by asking them questions, lol! When a kid goes to ISS (In School Suspension) does he not have to do the work that the class is doing? Is he not being disciplined for his actions in school by being seperated from his classmates? Then the same applies for athletics. "If you do the crime you do the time." Or in this case if you break the rules you recieve the consequences. It comes down to this: Athletics is a privelege, if you don't like the rules then don't participate! |
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Post by carookie on Oct 11, 2012 14:24:27 GMT -6
From the article:
"Corporal punishment, defined as physical force or physical contact made with the intent to harm or cause pain, is illegal in Iowa.....”
Did the coach use physical force or make physical contact? Unless he pushed or dragged the kid for the conditioning then no. To me thats the gist of it being physical abuse/corporal punishment.
There is a difference between using physical force and asking someone to do something physical; and that is not just semantics
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Post by mattyg2787 on Oct 11, 2012 15:06:58 GMT -6
Coachroberts- my wife deals with in home abuse victims as part of her job. I understand your point completely. That said, we don't know the full story of what happened. if this coach was/ is abusing his power, I hope he gets run out of town. That said, discipline is a huge part of both football and life. Things like turning up on time should be a punishable offense. If I turn up late to work I'll get a far worse punishment then a couple of laps.
Without knowing the full story, we can't judge the individual case. However, they are talking about banning any of this sort of thing.
Coachcb- I was not athletic in high school at all. I sucked at field sports and got picked on for it. However, I remember one teacher who took us through a session on Gridiron and I loved it. Same with track events. I was terrible at running (and still am) but I really enjoyed shotput and discus.
Did I sit out or put any less effort into the sports I didn't enjoy? Hell no, I hardened up. But different generation I guess
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by coachcb on Oct 11, 2012 15:30:24 GMT -6
C Coachcb- I was not athletic in high school at all. I sucked at field sports and got picked on for it. However, I remember one teacher who took us through a session on Gridiron and I loved it. Same with track events. I was terrible at running (and still am) but I really enjoyed shotput and discus. Did I sit out or put any less effort into the sports I didn't enjoy? Hell no, I hardened up. But different generation I guess Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards We do a ton of fun little games that emphasize skill work. We also do a whole lot of small sided games (2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 soccer) so that the less skilled kids pick up on things, play the game, learn the skills and have fun. I also make sure that the teams are even and everyone touches the ball. It's not the games themselves; these kids just hate moving around. And, we have an actual bully problem with them as well. They all seem to hate each other as well. It is a different generation; anything involving moving is a bad thing. But, detentions didn't get it done, calls home to mom and dad didn't get it done so they earned themselves some fitness stations. Most of them figured out what "PE not being fun" is all about. The parent that called me today is also one that I have talked to on two occasions about her kid's behavior and has done a ton of detention time with me. She's p-ssed off because, apparently, I made the "whole class run until they puked." I set her straight and told her it was about time we had a meeting with the principal anyway as her boy took to tormenting a special needs kid in class today. |
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Post by paulfrantz on Oct 12, 2012 15:24:48 GMT -6
We have a counselor at all our team meetings, practices, and games so when we have an issue like this we can all sit down and talk about it. That way we can find out the root of his problem and help him solve it. Afterwards we all have a group hug.  |
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Post by coachbuck on Oct 12, 2012 16:08:07 GMT -6
here is where this society is headed, this is an email fwd I sent my brother of an email sent to our teaching staff about last week's band competition. "Congratulations to the Students, Staff and Supporters of the XXXXX Band Program. This past Saturday the Band travelled to XXXXXXXXX for its 3rd OMEA Event of the season. A trophy was presented for 1st place in Class A. That is good because we were the ONLY band in Class A. More importantly, several other accomplishments were reached. Our Color Guard received its highest scores of the season. This young group has worked tremendously hard to establish a new base to grow from in future years. The Band once again received an overall rating of I (Superior). Closer examination of the score sheets revealed that the Band received I ratings from all seven judges! The final overall point total for the XXXXX Band was 270.2 out of a possible 300 points. THIS IS THE HIGHEST SCORE IN THE HISTORY OF THE XXXXX BAND!! This is an amazing result by a group of the most dedicated students in our school. They are talented and work very hard for their accomplishments. EVERY band there got a superior rating. That's why I love band, it's so much like real life where everybody wins." Get the phuk out of here - ya know...this corporal punishment story combined with the band email - I'm out fellas. I can't do it or don't want to do it anymore. This is a waste of time. Pussification of America complete. Apparently I went to sleep one night and woke up another dimension. I'm going to try to go back to where I came from, so I'm making kool-aid, anyone else want some? last week at varsity game. Band walks onto field at halftime and the announcer said "time for the main event" |
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Post by contrariancoach on Oct 14, 2012 0:32:17 GMT -6
We do competitive o-line versus d-line drills every day. Losers do pushups. We finish by picking a 1 and picking a 2 each. They go head to head and the whole unit does pushups (including me) if our side loses. False start, whole team does push ups Encroachment, push ups Dropped balls, individual push ups. I ain't leaving, the b@$*@%$ have to push me out the door. Coach, I understand your frustration with the general problem that coaches are talking about in this thread. I understand punishment for disobeying team rules, mouthing off at refs, etc, but why punish a player for a performance error? Punishing them only creates more pressure. Being patient with them and teaching them how to improve creates less pressure. Wooden vs. Knight. How many titles did Knight win? How many titles did Wooden win? But there again, Wooden was a basketball coach, so what does he know about coaching? Of course some of this comes down to style; I am not saying you should change to Wooden if you are Knight, but I am mainly just talking about it in regards to punishing players for performance errors. (And yes veterans, I am arguing about this, so go ahead and get aggravated at me all you want and call me out for it. I am prepared to argue this, and if we disagree, I am okay with that. However, please don't get on here with stupid crap like "oh here he goes again with another argument".) |
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Post by mattyg2787 on Oct 14, 2012 2:58:14 GMT -6
See we two platoon do the d just really wants to best the o and vice versa. The male ego is an amazing thing
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