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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 14, 2012 10:50:34 GMT -6
Coach, I understand your frustration with the general problem that coaches are talking about in this thread. I understand punishment for disobeying team rules, mouthing off at refs, etc, but why punish a player for a performance error? Punishing them only creates more pressure. Being patient with them and teaching them how to improve creates less pressure. Wooden vs. Knight. How many titles did Knight win? How many titles did Wooden win? But there again, Wooden was a basketball coach, so what does he know about coaching? Of course some of this comes down to style; I am not saying you should change to Wooden if you are Knight, but I am mainly just talking about it in regards to punishing players for performance errors. (And yes veterans, I am arguing about this, so go ahead and get aggravated at me all you want and call me out for it. I am prepared to argue this, and if we disagree, I am okay with that. However, please don't get on here with stupid crap like "oh here he goes again with another argument".) A couple of things 1) Bob Knight led teams won 902 division I games,3 national championships and 1 gold medal--with zero recruiting infractions and all without Sam Gilbert. When trying to show causation, that isn't the guy you want as your example. He has more success than 99.99% of "wooden" like coaches. If you are trying to show this as an example of what NOT to do... you have failed miserably. Not trying to debate Knight vs Wooden... just saying you need to think things through more clearly if you want to have rankless meetings. 2) Players need to learn how to perform in pressure situations. Couldn't it be argued that it is much better for the players to get used to pressure in practice, rather than just a game situation?
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Post by contrariancoach on Nov 10, 2012 2:20:29 GMT -6
Coach, I understand your frustration with the general problem that coaches are talking about in this thread. I understand punishment for disobeying team rules, mouthing off at refs, etc, but why punish a player for a performance error? Punishing them only creates more pressure. Being patient with them and teaching them how to improve creates less pressure. Wooden vs. Knight. How many titles did Knight win? How many titles did Wooden win? But there again, Wooden was a basketball coach, so what does he know about coaching? Of course some of this comes down to style; I am not saying you should change to Wooden if you are Knight, but I am mainly just talking about it in regards to punishing players for performance errors. (And yes veterans, I am arguing about this, so go ahead and get aggravated at me all you want and call me out for it. I am prepared to argue this, and if we disagree, I am okay with that. However, please don't get on here with stupid crap like "oh here he goes again with another argument".) A couple of things 1) Bob Knight led teams won 902 division I games,3 national championships and 1 gold medal--with zero recruiting infractions and all without Sam Gilbert. When trying to show causation, that isn't the guy you want as your example. He has more success than 99.99% of "wooden" like coaches. If you are trying to show this as an example of what NOT to do... you have failed miserably. Not trying to debate Knight vs Wooden... just saying you need to think things through more clearly if you want to have rankless meetings. 2) Players need to learn how to perform in pressure situations. Couldn't it be argued that it is much better for the players to get used to pressure in practice, rather than just a game situation? I understand what you are saying concerning Sam Gilbert. I am a big fan of Wooden's coaching philosophy, but the cheating issue that has came to light in the past is certainly disappointing. That said, 10 national championships (7 of them consecutively), and 4 undefeated seasons in Division 1A basketball is very impressive, even 40 years ago. I am not trying to argue that the cheating did not help, but I think it is a similar situation to Jimmie Johnson's reign in NASCAR: Rick Hendrick did not pull some random person off the street and have Chad Knaus start finding every loop hole in the rulebook, and even outright breaking the rules, and suddenly the #48 team has 5 championships in a row... Wooden had to be doing something right in order for the cheating to be able to help them win 10 national titles. While we may just disagree on this particular point as a matter of style and also ethics, I have much more respect for Wooden because he treated players, fans, opposing teams, and the officials with respect. Knight on the other hand may have ran a clean program, but there is no excuse for his behavior. I agree about pressure situations, but is screaming, cursing, slapping, grabbing throats, and throwing chairs necessary to simulate pressure situations?
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Post by silkyice on Nov 10, 2012 6:44:08 GMT -6
here is where this society is headed, this is an email fwd I sent my brother of an email sent to our teaching staff about last week's band competition. "Congratulations to the Students, Staff and Supporters of the XXXXX Band Program. This past Saturday the Band travelled to XXXXXXXXX for its 3rd OMEA Event of the season. A trophy was presented for 1st place in Class A. That is good because we were the ONLY band in Class A. More importantly, several other accomplishments were reached. Our Color Guard received its highest scores of the season. This young group has worked tremendously hard to establish a new base to grow from in future years. The Band once again received an overall rating of I (Superior). Closer examination of the score sheets revealed that the Band received I ratings from all seven judges! The final overall point total for the XXXXX Band was 270.2 out of a possible 300 points. THIS IS THE HIGHEST SCORE IN THE HISTORY OF THE XXXXX BAND!! This is an amazing result by a group of the most dedicated students in our school. They are talented and work very hard for their accomplishments. EVERY band there got a superior rating. That's why I love band, it's so much like real life where everybody wins." Get the phuk out of here - ya know...this corporal punishment story combined with the band email - I'm out fellas. I can't do it or don't want to do it anymore. This is a waste of time. Pussification of America complete. Apparently I went to sleep one night and woke up another dimension. I'm going to try to go back to where I came from, so I'm making kool-aid, anyone else want some? I was at school that had an "undefeated" band team. Won over 100 competitions in a row. The school really promoted this. Come to find out, if any member won any event - read got a superior rating, they said they won the competition. Also, we were a 4A school, but the band competed in the 1A division because of their numbers in the band. But here is the best part. Come to school one Monday and one of the band members is on crutches. I asked her what happened. She said that she fell and broke her ankle and knocked 2 people over during the band competition. She also said that during the same song another member fell and knocked over another band member. So that is 5 that went down and one broke her ankle. I told her I was sorry, she said ,"it is okay, we won first place anyways." LMAO
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 10, 2012 6:47:30 GMT -6
A couple of things 1) Bob Knight led teams won 902 division I games,3 national championships and 1 gold medal--with zero recruiting infractions and all without Sam Gilbert. When trying to show causation, that isn't the guy you want as your example. He has more success than 99.99% of "wooden" like coaches. If you are trying to show this as an example of what NOT to do... you have failed miserably. Not trying to debate Knight vs Wooden... just saying you need to think things through more clearly if you want to have rankless meetings. 2) Players need to learn how to perform in pressure situations. Couldn't it be argued that it is much better for the players to get used to pressure in practice, rather than just a game situation? I understand what you are saying concerning Sam Gilbert. I am a big fan of Wooden's coaching philosophy, but the cheating issue that has came to light in the past is certainly disappointing. That said, 10 national championships (7 of them consecutively), and 4 undefeated seasons in Division 1A basketball is very impressive, even 40 years ago. I am not trying to argue that the cheating did not help, but I think it is a similar situation to Jimmie Johnson's reign in NASCAR: Rick Hendrick did not pull some random person off the street and have Chad Knaus start finding every loop hole in the rulebook, and even outright breaking the rules, and suddenly the #48 team has 5 championships in a row... Wooden had to be doing something right in order for the cheating to be able to help them win 10 national titles. While we may just disagree on this particular point as a matter of style and also ethics, I have much more respect for Wooden because he treated players, fans, opposing teams, and the officials with respect. Knight on the other hand may have ran a clean program, but there is no excuse for his behavior. I agree about pressure situations, but is screaming, cursing, slapping, grabbing throats, and throwing chairs necessary to simulate pressure situations? Again...you didn't get it.... The point was holding up Bob Knight as what "not to do" BECAUSE HE ONLY WON 3 NATIONAL TITLES (and not 10 ) was pretty stupid. Then you are off point regarding pressure. Your original premise was that making them run increases pressure, which was bad. Now you are equating pressure with hitting athletes and cursing at them...which I am not sure anyone really does....
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Post by contrariancoach on Nov 11, 2012 1:42:16 GMT -6
Again...you didn't get it.... The point was holding up Bob Knight as what "not to do" BECAUSE HE ONLY WON 3 NATIONAL TITLES (and not 10 ) was pretty stupid. Then you are off point regarding pressure. Your original premise was that making them run increases pressure, which was bad. Now you are equating pressure with hitting athletes and cursing at them...which I am not sure anyone really does.... Wooden won 10 titles, 7 of them consecutively, and was calm and patient. Knight won 3 national titles and was a jerk... I understand your point about the cheating, but are you trying to tell me that UCLA only accomplished what they did under Wooden because of cheating? Game-like pressure and pressure because you fear negative repurcussions from your coaches if you don't perform correctly (including running, push-ups, screaming, cursing, and throwing objects) are two different matters. The former is a part of competition that all competitors must learn to deal with. The latter is unnecessary and usually leads to one or more of the following: A) Trying too hard, which leads to further errors and/or injury B) Tuning the coach out C) Rebelling against the coach and sabotaging them uninentionally and/or intentionally None of the 3 above outcomes are helping your players to perform better. Ultimately, much like offensive and defensive schemes, I will admit it comes down to working with what you know best. If you operate by intimidation and treating your players like dirt, and can still win, then that is your decision. But personally, I would rather treat my players with respect, and that includes not punishing them for performance errors with exercise, screaming, cursing, and throwing objects.
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Post by brophy on Nov 11, 2012 5:14:54 GMT -6
If you operate by intimidation and treating your players like dirt, and can still win, then that is your decision. . for clarity's sake, that isn't what anyone's talking about. It would be having a physical consequence for correctable performance liability: - player grades out below 65% in a game
- player has a loaf in a game
- player is responsible for a penalty in a game
lets say for each one of those comes with a consequence of doing ladders after Monday practice. Its setting an expectation of excellence to eliminate errors. I know Nick Saban has some legendary stories of this type of stuff when he was in Baton Rouge. Thats really all this thread is about, not coaching personality.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 11, 2012 8:37:08 GMT -6
Knight won 3 national titles STOP. That is the point. You don't bring up someone who won 900+games and 3 titles and say "yeah, see, he wasn't as successful as ___________ because of..." HE WON 3 TITLES. STOP trying to compare him to another successful coach. HE WON 3 TITLES. Just STOP.
You can't just be kind of pregnant. Who knows. Did Barry Bonds ONLY hit all those Home Runs due to PEDs? Mark Maguire? If that led to Alcindor or Walton attending UCLA.... Regardless, that isn't the point. The point is since 1963 there have been 50 NCAA div I mens basketball champions. Bob Knight LED THREE of those teams. You DO NOT hold that up success and say "yeah, but he could have been better if...." Evidence to the point. DEAN SMITH. He has LESS than Knight...
Just stop. This is not a rankless meeting.
I think Brophy's post nicely sums up this part. Doesn't matter.. you don't know, and if you keep this up, you never will.
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Post by contrariancoach on Nov 12, 2012 0:01:11 GMT -6
If you operate by intimidation and treating your players like dirt, and can still win, then that is your decision. . for clarity's sake, that isn't what anyone's talking about. It would be having a physical consequence for correctable performance liability: - player grades out below 65% in a game
- player has a loaf in a game
- player is responsible for a penalty in a game
lets say for each one of those comes with a consequence of doing ladders after Monday practice. Its setting an expectation of excellence to eliminate errors. I know Nick Saban has some legendary stories of this type of stuff when he was in Baton Rouge. Thats really all this thread is about, not coaching personality. I am in agreement with physical punishment with the last two scenarios you listed. However, the first one would include, for example, a wide receiver being graded on catching percentage, correct? If so, I think it is wrong to punish people for those types of performance errors. Loafing is one thing, but dropping passes is another. What if a receiver is still learning? What if they have a vision problem? What if the wide receiver coach has not done his job teaching the receiver how to catch? If they continue not to perform, cut back their playing time, because at that point their performance is hurting the team, and it is only fair to give other players a chance. You can set that expectation for excellence by cutting playing time if errors become a consistent issue; you don't need punishment to set that expectation. But don't punish them for dropped passes if they were honest mistakes. I see what you are saying about this thread not being about coaching personality. When I originally brought up Wooden vs. Knight, if you go back and read what I posted, I was using that as an example of one coach who was impatient and primarily used positive and negative punishment, and another coach who was patient and primarily used positive reinforcement (and perhaps some negative reinforcement). The latter clearly had better results than the former, but as coach5085 pointed out, because of the cheating those results are automatically tainted. Still, there are other coaches with similar temperaments to Wooden's who have achieved results superior to Knight's: -Coach K -Phil Jackson To be fair, we are talking too much about basketball coaches now; football and basketball are different sports. I think football tends to foster aggressive, hostile, and intense team environments more so than football, so it probably really is not fair to bring Coach K and Phil Jackson into the discussion, especially considering that Phil Jackson coached at a higher level than Knight and coached two of the greatest NBA players ever (Jordan and Bryant).
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Post by fantom on Nov 12, 2012 0:12:45 GMT -6
for clarity's sake, that isn't what anyone's talking about. It would be having a physical consequence for correctable performance liability: - player grades out below 65% in a game
- player has a loaf in a game
- player is responsible for a penalty in a game
lets say for each one of those comes with a consequence of doing ladders after Monday practice. Its setting an expectation of excellence to eliminate errors. I know Nick Saban has some legendary stories of this type of stuff when he was in Baton Rouge. Thats really all this thread is about, not coaching personality. I am in agreement with physical punishment with the last two scenarios you listed. However, the first one would include, for example, a wide receiver being graded on catching percentage, correct? If so, I think it is wrong to punish people for those types of performance errors. Loafing is one thing, but dropping passes is another. What if a receiver is still learning? What if they have a vision problem? What if the wide receiver coach has not done his job teaching the receiver how to catch? If they continue not to perform, cut back their playing time, because at that point their performance is hurting the team, and it is only fair to give other players a chance. You can set that expectation for excellence by cutting playing time if errors become a consistent issue; you don't need punishment to set that expectation. But don't punish them for dropped passes if they were honest mistakes. I see what you are saying about this thread not being about coaching personality. When I originally brought up Wooden vs. Knight, if you go back and read what I posted, I was using that as an example of one coach who was impatient and primarily used positive and negative punishment, and another coach who was patient and primarily used positive reinforcement (and perhaps some negative reinforcement). The latter clearly had better results than the former, but as coach5085 pointed out, because of the cheating those results are automatically tainted. Still, there are other coaches with similar temperaments to Wooden's who have achieved results superior to Knight's: Coach K Phil Jackson To be fair, we are talking too much about basketball coaches now; football and basketball are different sports. I think football tends to foster aggressive, hostile, and intense team environments more so than football, so it probably really is not fair to bring Coach K and Phil Jackson into the discussion, especially considering that Phil Jackson coached at a higher level than Knight and coached two of the greatest NBA players ever (Jordan and Bryant). You think that Coach K's temperament is similar to Wooden's? That's funny.
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Post by contrariancoach on Nov 12, 2012 0:16:17 GMT -6
You DO NOT hold that up success and say "yeah, but he could have been better if...." Evidence to the point. DEAN SMITH. He has LESS than Knight... Why not question if he could have been better? Is that disrespectful? Was it it really necessary to treat people the way he did? I don't want this discussion to shift over to basketball, because this a football coaching website, but since you mentioned Dean Smith and used him as evidence to the point, what do you think about Coach K and Phil Jackson? Both have temperaments similar to Wooden, coach in the same sport as Knight, and have achieved results superior to Knight's results. Granted, Jackson coached at a higher level than Knight, and also coached two of the greatest NBA players ever (Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant). Football and basketball are definitely different sports. As I mentioned in my last post, I think football tends to foster aggressive, hostile, and intense team environments more so than basketball. Regardless, there are some aspects of coaching that apply to all sports. Included in that is how a coach holds their players accountable for their performances. Also, I don't understand why you are so hung up on this rankless meeting matter. You keep mentioning it in all your posts in reply to my posts.
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Post by semiretired55 on Nov 22, 2012 18:33:09 GMT -6
Had this happen to me. Coached football for 12 years. Became head coach at a relatively new school.....admin stated they wanted more discipline in program. Hired some really good coaches. . . we were accused of this and "verbal abuse" by some of the parents. WTH?? Some of the complaints included that we did not let players have names on the back of jerseys, and that players were not having "fun". Was told (no joke) to have more "pizza parties" or something like that. Administrator was placed on field for EVERY practice. Ruined our season....(and my love for the game) Resigned at the end of the year, as did assistants. One of them went to different program as DC, they have won their league every year. . . this year, they are in section champ game---D is allowing less than 7 points a game.
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Post by semiretired55 on Nov 22, 2012 18:47:03 GMT -6
And, one more thing .. . .
What these parents and school officials do not realize is that allowing young people to get results from frivolous complaints teaches these kids to be complainers for the rest of their lives. So, when they get into the real world, they become unable to accept responsibility and consequences for their actions. They will be more likely to view their shortcomings and difficulties as being an injustice to them rather than something within that they need to improve upon. Rather than accept their shortcomings and mistakes, they will point the finger, complain, and blame others in order to avoid responsibilities. These people will have more difficulty in dealing with their future employers, spouses, and the institutions of everyday life. Such individuals will also have a greater likelihood of encountering legal difficulties in their lives, and, when/if they do, will be ill equipped to accept their mistakes and change their behavior. Now, who is the REAL absuser here?? Hmmmmm
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