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Post by ajreaper on Apr 15, 2007 18:55:14 GMT -6
LOL, it's amazing how some people can seemingly justify doing what is clearly not the right thing. This is high school athletics no team ever deserves to have their noses rubbed in it and those other kids that show up every day deserve an opportunity to play as well (and what better opportunity then in a game thats been determined) And Tubbs rational is assine- the NCAA is not going to call that point shaving ever. Have they ever penalized a team for taking a knee or kicking a field goal as time expired in a game already decided? Of course not. Point shaving is players intentially missing shots or turning the ball over not playing your bench.
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Post by briangilbert on Apr 15, 2007 19:17:42 GMT -6
Why is football the one sport where your bench "deserves" the right to play? Varsity Basketball and Baseball teams rarely play everyone and that is a cut sport. Football is not a cut sport, but if it were, those kids that get to play at the end of blowouts wouldn't usually even be on the team. Ajreaper - Again, you can't decide what is moral for another individual so to say that it is for sure the wrong thing to do couldn't be farther then the truth. Of course it's wrong for you, but it's not wrong for me. The very fact that there is no rule at least in my state (I know out in CT they have one) against blowing a team out leads me to believe then that there is nothing from stopping my team from doing so? In the real world it would be like your company deciding that we have made enough money for this quarter, let's slack off so we show mercy on our competition. In the real world you don't put your bench in whether it's your company, your grades, HS football, or foreign relations among nations. Heck maybe being blown out will teach humility an important life lesson, or will make individuals work harder. Who's to say that the team that got blown out didn't deserve it? And yes I tried to make my response as LOADED as possible to spark discussion
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 15, 2007 20:11:48 GMT -6
ajreaper Don't think Tubbs meant it as 'matter of fact' as it was typed up by the media. I was only using that as another way of looking at the whole issue of - when is it time to sub?
I know of two coaches who win the championship in their respective leagues just about every year. Their leagues are weak and most teams in these leagues have a tough time giving these programs 12 minutes of solid football, let alone 48. Both coaches have experienced their share of 1st round playoff exits and both believe it has much to do with the fact that their leagues are weak and do not help either of their teams get prepped for a playoff run. They now tend to leave their players in through the end of the 3rd quarter, even though the scores are lopsided, and absorb a lots of criticism but are getting their teams deeper into the playoffs.
How do you feel about this scenario? Immoral? Unethical? I know you jumped on briangilbert a little bit but at least he's being honest.
I do my best to put my reserves in when the game is in hand but I have to get my main guys their share of action, too.
I'm not sure if this question has to do with morals or ethics. I had a kicker who never got one opportunity for a FG attempt his entire senior year. We were playing our last regular season game and we were not sure if we were going to make the playoffs as our fate depended on another game. Anyway, we drive the ball down to the 30 and let him try a field goal with a minute left in the game. We were ahead by 20 at the time. The opposing coach jumped all over my case about trying to rub it in. I just apologized and told him I'd explain later. I don't believe I'm immoral or unethical. When the coach heard me out at a winter clinic, he understood and apologized for his outburst after our game.
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 15, 2007 21:09:31 GMT -6
How is running a company even remotely related to coaching high school football? That's a terrible analogy. What happens in the world of big business shouldn't decide whether a bunch of overmatched teengers get embarrassed needlessly. And there certainly are standards for baseball and basketball in blowouts- call the press off, no stealing, or bunting and in both cases coaches often go deep into their benches. I also do not think it's a moral issue at all but one of ethics and professionalism.
If your region is weak schedule tough non-region foes or have more demanding practices- beating up on a weak opponent does not prepare anyone for post season comp. and to think so is a bit silly.
I think some of you have never been on the wrong side of these- LOL, otherwise you'd have a little different perspective on this perhaps.
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Post by fbairattack on Apr 15, 2007 21:10:32 GMT -6
I like to give seconds a chance in the game when it still "matters" so they get that feeling of being in the middle of an important drive where they have to perform for us to win. I will sub as soon as possible with every position expect QB and Center on O, and MLB and Free Saftey on D.
In college our HC subbed the 2nd QB on the second series every game. "Experience under pressure made us better" he used to say.
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Post by lionhart on Apr 15, 2007 21:11:48 GMT -6
touchdowng, the admin knew this guys act.... but lets just say his "connections" go beyond the reach of our administration. anyway, the guy hasnt won a game in 3 years and the program is in shambles. like i said, if i face him im gonna let him have it. anyway, each situation is different. if you are constantly pulling your kids early in the game... will they be ready when it comes to crunch time? at the same time... what purpose does it serve to beat a team by 10 td's? are you really getting better that way? and the reason i think that football is the only sport where kids "deserve" to play is this.... reward for hard work. if a kid knows he will not get a shot to play, even if his team is up by 50.... why come to practice? why get beat up on the scout team? this is a great discussion guys.
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Post by briangilbert on Apr 15, 2007 21:37:08 GMT -6
In regard to playing time...My only thing is much of the time that kid who you are playing in garbage time probably didn't deserve it and is just a SR who wants to wear a jersey... If the kid is literally deserving to play though that's another story... I guess I don't treat varsity football like T-ball where everyone plays and gets a trophy, now JV football that's another story everyone plays in that.
Also the business analogy ties into life which football is also a part of... Life ain't fair, so to play devil's advocate maybe that 63-0 loss will just build character or motivate the competition to put a better product on the field.
And lastly Why should I be at fault because your team sucks? And yes I have been on the other side of those lopsided scores and all it did was make me and my kids work our butt's off in the off season, but if you don't think for a second that loss played mind games with our kids and made us believe we could not beat those guys then your crazy.
That's why you run the score up on people IMO; it makes the next season game against them that much easier. You may have already won in the mind of your opponent before you even take the field.
Lionhart - I couldn't tell you why some kids who don't see the field come to practice. Maybe it's because they just have a genuine passion for the game of football? But just because you show up does that mean you should automatically get to play? How come basketball coaches aren't held to this? Or baseball coaches at the varsity level? With Track you just run the guy's with the best times... Football at the varsity level isn't a cut sport but sometimes it should be.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 15, 2007 21:39:21 GMT -6
lionhart you are smart in moving on. hopefully you will have an opportunity to show this coach how to handle a program with class but it sounds like he can't or won't learn. This is a good discussion and I'm sure most would take the high road when the game has been "decided." But there are those situations mr ajreaper, that will test you, especially if you stay in this game long enough..... In '02 where we were up 56 to 7 vs. our rivals. We put up with their silly pre-game hootin' & hollerin' and stuck to playing FB as we always preached to our kids. During the route our #4 TB was injured with about 10 minutes left. We were just trying to run the clock and go home. He was running behind our JV line when he received a bad ankle sprain on a questionable late hit. At any rate, as I got near their sideline where my player was on the ground, their DC yells out, "Hey boys, we can't win but we can knock some of their players out!" I did not take the high road. I went back to our sideline, and as I walked past our offensive huddle I told our #2 QB to throw a fade. He looked at me like he had seen a ghost. I said, "Just do it!" He called the fade and we gained another 30 yards. We then ran the ball and turned it over on downs. I would do that again - throw it - in a second if the same scenario came up. Their HC was fairly upset after the game and I told him he needed to shut his DC's mouth up. The next year we beat them 57 to 6 and they were actually favored. Same hootin' and hollerin' in pregame and same cheapshots once the game was out of hand. My guys didn't even want to play the 2nd half. Was the pass Unethical? I wish we would have scored.
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 15, 2007 22:36:30 GMT -6
LOL, what the DC, an adult on the sidelines, says or does should not give us a license to rub it in the kids noses. I've been in the game many years and have never taken out on kids what perhaps their coach had coming to him. And to a stadium full of people, who did not hear what you did, you look classless and that gets attached to the program and the kids- like it or not the tit for tat pissing contest with another coach impacts your programs image negatively in the eyes of many. I've had opposing coaches, fans, and players all make derogatory statements but that does not mean I have license to take it out on players on the field. Come on thats like beating up a kid because his brother called you a name- a bit immature for certain.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 15, 2007 22:41:56 GMT -6
I guess if I were coaching chess I would agree. LOL
You would have had to have been there to fully get it. If you would have turned your cheek the other way, there would be no way I could have played for you. And years later, as an adult I would have felt you were soft.
Just my opinion.
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Post by wildcat on Apr 16, 2007 0:19:09 GMT -6
I've been on both sides of blowouts.
I think that when you are really putting it to the other team, there should be an unwritten rule that if you take your foot off of the gas and put your backups and young guys in, the other team needs to limit what they are doing.
We were playing a team that we clearly overmatched. We just had better players than they did and the thing was over by the end of the 1st Quarter. Halftime score was 32-0 (we scored on all four 2-pt. conversions).
Anyway, we started the second half with all of our backups (mostly sophomores and freshmen). Basically, we wanted to run the ball and try to score 1 more time with our youngsters and get the clock moving (in Illinois, you get a running clock with a 40-pt. lead).
Anyway, the other coach left his starters in and started blitzing the heck out of us and were just waling away on our young guys. What made it even worse is that they were hooting and hollering after every play as if it was a big deal that juniors and seniors were having success against sophomores and freshmen. What really ticked me off is that it was obvious that we were trying to run the ball (we are a spread team but went out in the 2nd half in a 2-back formation and called runnig plays), but the other team acted like they were in the Super Bowl.
So, I got really ticked off and called a play action pass off of a lead play out of the I on 1st Down. Sophomore QB makes a great play fake, the defense collapses on the FB and TB, QB rolls easily outside of the defensive end and we score on a 50-yard TD pass with no defender within 20 yards of the WR who caught the ball. We score on the 2-pt conversion, get the 40-pt cushion and the running clock, and go on to win 40-12.
Anyway, the head coach refuses to shake my hand after the game and accuses me of running up the score and rubbing his players' noses in it. I ask him what he expected me to do considering that his varsity guys were just teeing off on the freshmen and sophomores. I told him, given the way he was calling the defense, that we wanted to get the game over quickly before any of our guys got hurt. The guy blew me off and just kept telling me that they would remember this the next year when we played.
I understood the guy's frustration and tried to not let it bother me, but it did...took me a long to figure out the the guy wasn't really angry at me as much as he was angry at the circumstances. I think that he desperately wanted to avoid getting 40-pointed by us (we weren't very good that year) and when our JV guys scored that long TD pass against his blitzing and stunting starting varsity defense, that really exposed how bad his team was and he wanted to shift the focus away from his players, coaches, and himself by making us look like classless bullies.
He even brought it up the next morning on the weekly "Coaches Corner" radio show they do on Saturday. Didn't really want to talk about anything other than that 1 particular play. Kept making comments that his AD was going to write a letter to our AD complaining about our coaches' lack of sportsmanship and class.
Nothing ever came of it. The guy resigned during the winter and took an assistant job in another conference, but I still get angry when I think about it.
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Post by wingtol on Apr 16, 2007 6:27:57 GMT -6
eople. briangilbert.... have you ever had 60 or 70 tagged on your boys when it wasn't necessary? I have and to me, it's nothing more than a misuse of power by somebody who is in charge but probably doesn't deserve to be. It's that old adage about people with the least amount of power wanting to use it the most and those with the most know how to use it when it's only necessary. t. Here is how I have learned to handle it since I have been involved in alot of games that have been blowouts. The philosophy I have learend is the first half is fair game. Do what ever you have to get the most points. After half time thats when you start subbing. we usually will keep the first team in for a few plays, call time out and do a whole sale subistution to show that we are taking everyone out. As far has hanging 60 or 70 on a team I don't think its a misuse of power. I have been in several games where that has happened and most of the scoring came with 2-3-4th stringers against the other teams 1st. What do you do take a knee everytime? I am in fuill support of once your 2-3rds let them play, we dont throw deep or throw at all usually in that case but it isn't my fault if your team quits and dosent want to tackle or try and stop our backups from scoring.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 16, 2007 7:32:44 GMT -6
wildcat Can't think of any coach who was worth his whistle that wouldn't have done the same thing. You have to stick up for your program WITHIN THE RULES. A playaction pass was well within the rules.
Did they call off the dogs after that score?
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Post by lsrood on Apr 16, 2007 7:53:53 GMT -6
In PA we have the 35 point mercy rule which states that if one team is up by 35 points in the second half the clock runs unless there is an injury or called timeout (stops between quarters and after any scores until the ball is put in play again). Since last year was our 1st year in a rebuilding program, we got mercy ruled three times, and in two of them I had no problem with the other coaches. We got blown out 48-0 in our first game by the eventual district champion and he called off the dogs in the 2nd quarter or it could have been very ugly. I thanked him afterwards for his classiness. We also lost our 3rd game to the district runner-up 42-0 and he was passing on us in the 3rd & 4 the quarters with his first team. I shook his hand but did not say anything after the game filing it away under "one day when the tables are turned..." The third one happened in the playoffs (we rebounded well from some early problems and qualified for them) and I had no problem as they went over the mark while running base powers and were not trying to rub our faces in it.
Now this was my first year as a head coach, but I had been an assistant in the same program when we had some great success and could hang 50 or more on people regularly. Our philosophy then was we called off the dogs once we got up to the mercy rule and we substituted liberally. We ran our base offense with our 2nd & 3rd teams and would pass only if it was a 3rd and very long. We felt as others have posted that the 2nd & 3rd teams deserve to play having "earned" that right by practicing hard every week to give our 1st team a good look( our rule also was if you did not practice you did not dress, so they earned their right by practicing).
Since becomning HC I haven't gotten in the position to get up by 35 on someone yet, but that day will be here soon enough and I plan to follow that same philosophy. I will sub when the score is out of hand for three reasons: 1. When you mercy rule someone you do create that psychological edge that can carry over to next year without running it up to 60-70 points. 2. It gives incentive to your backups to practice hard all week knowing that their playing time revolves on how well they help prepare the varsity and how well they practice themeselves. 3. It gets the back-ups varsity game experience, that helps prepare them to eventually play in the prime time part of the game.
Finally in respone to briangilberts posts, yes coach every HC has to make their own decisions as to what is right for them and their program, but every team you blow out might not have the same problems. As others have mentioned, there are just times that you have to send a message to an opposing coach that what he is doing is wrong (sorry ajreaper, but I disagree with you on that point) however, you have to remember that this is HS football and those are kids over there just like yours. You say you've been on the other end of blowouts, if that is the case then you should know how they affect your players and staff. Getting humiliated can be a powerful motivator sometimes, but it is not a technique that I like or want to be associated with. I can guarantee that my team will be very motivated when we take on the teams that mercy ruled us last year, but we will be extremely motivated to take on the team that humiliated us. There is a difference between winning with class and winning through humiliation. Each head coach has to make the decision how they want their programs viewed. I want out program to be viewed as a class act.
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Post by wildcat on Apr 16, 2007 7:54:42 GMT -6
wildcat Can't think of any coach who was worth his whistle that wouldn't have done the same thing. You have to stick up for your program WITHIN THE RULES. A playaction pass was well within the rules. Did they call off the dogs after that score? Yeah...they backed off a little with the blitzing and stunting, but they scored 2 TDs against our freshmen and sophs because they started chucking the ball all over the field. We considered putting our starting defense back in, but, with the running clock, the other team only got 3 more possessions in the game and we didn't want to get any of our starters hurt just trying to make a point.
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 16, 2007 8:09:13 GMT -6
I guess if I were coaching chess I would agree. LOL You would have had to have been there to fully get it. If you would have turned your cheek the other way, there would be no way I could have played for you. And years later, as an adult I would have felt you were soft. Just my opinion. LOL, had you confronted the coach who popped off I'd have absolutely no problem with it but using your kids to further humilate his kids because he said something you disliked is wrong. There's nothing soft about it- you are the adult, supposedly a professional and are expected to model a certain type of conduct. I'm certain I have kids who likely do not agree with my charactor and class always approach- no show boating, do not cuss, do not argue with the officials etc. if they believe I'm soft so be it what important is I'm right. A thug like attitude or behavior does not get one far in the real world. I have no problem with running a play action pass when a team is blitzing, stunting and showing up your team- that's one way you hurt a blitzing/stunting team. That's solid technical football while there coach said something I don't like so I'll take it out on his team (many of whom may be thinking their coach needs to shut up but they certainly cannot say that) is childish. We all have free choice and unfortunately in this day and age we see people justify poor behavior or blame it on everyone and everything other then themselves daily- it's the disease of the 21st century. Who'd have ever thought they'd need to label coffee as HOT to protect themselves from those who spill it on themselves?
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Post by wingt74 on Apr 16, 2007 8:14:05 GMT -6
I think play calling has a lot to do with it.
If I'm up 35-0 and it's the third quarter, most of my starters can stay in, and get my top backups, but I'll run straight ISO I form off tackle plays...with a backup RB running the ball.
Also - This is an excellent chance for guys fighting for a some PT to get in some playing time.
Then if I keep scoring, I call off the dogs...on offense at least.
Defensively, I will preserve the shut-out. It's a goal.
I consider myself a class act. Other coach's may not. But no matter what, you will always have another coach dislike you. Certain coach's out there I truly respect...and their opinions of me matter most.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 16, 2007 8:25:58 GMT -6
reap This was our JV line and (after the injury) 5th team TB who was really a WR and our #2 QB who completed a fade against their #1's
Give me a break. We didn't do a drive by (thug talk), we threw a deep pass and gained 30 yards to make a point.
I gave the info about the DC but their hootin' and hollerin' players were laughing. No class.
Again, I wouldn't change a thing. I'm probably not as a good of a person as I could be but I am human. And YES I would do it again given the same circumstance. But please, don't call me a thug or reference my behavior as classless. You should state how you would handle it and leave the backdoor insults off the board. These types of comments reflect on you and I'm sure you are an above board guy who coaches for the right reasons.
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 16, 2007 9:09:04 GMT -6
LOL, that's no back door insult and I never said you were a thug I called it thug like behavior- retaliation is thug like behavior. You disrespected me so now I'll come back at you. You also never mentioned that the team in question was hooting and hollering and laughing it up- stating it now does cast you in a better light but one wonders why that was not stated previously? In any event one individual or group choosing to do the wrong thing does not give license to another to respond in kind. If they are hitting late, running thier mouths or taking cheap shots have a conversation with the offcials (though most put a quick end to that garbage in games like this) remind your players who they are and what they represent and demand they play with integrity. Now if they are pissed due to the conduct of their opponent and gain some extra motivation and step it up a notch or two physically good for them- play as hard as you like but within the framework of the rules and with class.
Oh and being called "soft" might be viewed as an insult so responding by calling your behavior thug like was justified following the logic you've presented;)
It's nothing personal it's debating different philospy's.
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Post by brophy on Apr 16, 2007 9:15:04 GMT -6
is calling WHAM five times in a row on a DT that cheap shotted your quarterback (retaliation) showing less than class?
Just asking
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Post by donaldduck on Apr 16, 2007 9:33:26 GMT -6
I don't think there's a plausible reason to sub the defense. Maybe one or two guys at a time, but always keep at least 8 starters out there. Ok, don't stunt. If I have a 40 - 0 lead, I'll try to keep the best defense out there for the shutout. If it's 40-3, I'd probably put a few more subs out there, but also keep the integrity of the defense.
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Post by tog on Apr 16, 2007 9:43:49 GMT -6
i know some coaches that aren't. Is it all about running up the score? No. I just try to do what is best for our kids. Period.
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Post by oguru on Apr 16, 2007 10:24:21 GMT -6
Brophy, I think what you did runnign wham five times in a row at a kid that took a cheap shot on one of your kids is okay. If their coaches can't figure out why your doing it, well then they have issues.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 16, 2007 10:58:38 GMT -6
Last year, I had my team take a knee in the red zone at the end of a game 3 times throughout the year. I can't say it was our 2nd team, because everyone on the team had a starting spot. But my 2nd team backfield marched it down their throats several times late games.
We had the game won by two scores, each time, so we just took a knee and ran out the clock as much as we could.
The opposing coaches were pissed at me for it; they thought I wasn't "respecting their defense". Doesn't matter to me, we can hang another 6 on you with our 11 year old,- 60lb FB; it's your call.
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Post by wingt74 on Apr 16, 2007 11:01:00 GMT -6
is calling WHAM five times in a row on a DT that cheap shotted your quarterback (retaliation) showing less than class? Just asking Only if the play keeps going for negative yards If you're gaining yards, heck no, run it 10 times.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 16, 2007 11:06:59 GMT -6
Let me pose a question;
If you were up by a big score, late in the game, WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO PLAY YOUR DEPTH?
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 16, 2007 11:09:36 GMT -6
is calling WHAM five times in a row on a DT that cheap shotted your quarterback (retaliation) showing less than class? Just asking I'd say no. It's a base run play and no matter who's on the field you never ask them to not play hard- like I said if the other teams actions fire your kids up and they play with greater effort so be it. Now if you call a time out go out there and say "we need to teach this player a lesson" Kids sometimes interpret that to be a blessing to cheap shot (high low the kid ect). I've spent entire quarters running inside ISO to the TE side- I was not trying to send a message but I don't see that as being any different. One would hope that 1) the officials saw it and penalized the cheap shot and 2) that players coach would see it and remove him from the game- most of us here have sent a player to the sidelines for either a cheap shot or for verbal sparring after a play. How we react in a trying situation should always be in the same manner and with the same demeanor we expect them to act with. If we preach one game but play another they see through that very, very quickly. We have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
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kdcoach
Sophomore Member
Posts: 194
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Post by kdcoach on Apr 16, 2007 11:38:34 GMT -6
I've already answered this, but I didn't add one thing that I personally believe in. When you are running up the score to get back at a coach it's not really him that you're "getting". He isn't on the field, his kids are. As a coach I am not beating the other guy, my team is beating his team. The kids are the ones that suffer when it is a blowout and the score is being "run up". I have been on both ends of it as have most of you here, I don't take it personally when we get beaten badly by another team just like I can't take full credit when we won. JMO.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 16, 2007 11:53:27 GMT -6
I began this thread with the basic question of when would it be the right time to begin pulling the troops out when victory is eminent?
Sounds like most would pull out by the mid-3rd qtr with the motivation to get their subs some well deserved playing time. Sounds like some have been on both ends of these scenarios and appreciate it when both HC can concede that the scoreboard has been settled.
The problems exist when one coach doesn't acknowledge the fact that the other team is beginning to sub, running the clock, wanting to keep healthy and to get to the mid-field handshake.
I've locked horns with ajreaper regarding this and we respectfully disagree with one another in one case.
How do the rest of you handle the program that won't wave the whiteflag when you begin to scale down the attack?
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 16, 2007 12:24:25 GMT -6
Touchdown- I absolutely respect your position and understand your feelings completely. I think we are both steadfast in our positions and that's fine- as we are both likely right and wrong to some degree.
I've only ran into a few cases where the game was clearly decided and we have subbed heavily and become extremely vanilla on both sides of the ball and had the opposing coach blitz or stunt us for example- in those cases we've simply gone to a quick count and told our boys it's great practice picking up those things. If a team wants to pass or run their "trick" plays so be it- again it's an opportunity to have those boys see and react to those things in game situations. We may not get our shut out but putting that 2nd or 3rd defensive group on the field with that on their shoulders makes a seemingly no preasure situation one that is preasure filled. They may not be deciding the game but they are deciding if the opponent scores or not- and if they do not score they share in the pride of the "shut out". I've been on the other side of the coin and when you move into the red zone they bring the starters back out- what does that say to those other kids? I'd rather have them upset the other team scored on them then feeling as coaches we have no confidence in them and do not trust them to step up in that type of situation. I'll have starters asking "coach are we going back in"? And I tell them absolutely not- we'll see right now if we've done a good job coaching and whether you all have been good team mates and helped your back ups to grow and improve. The shut out is on all our backs not just the 11 who start.
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