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Post by touchdowng on Apr 14, 2007 22:36:16 GMT -6
In your opinion, when your team has a sizeable lead (3 TD's or more), when do you begin to substitute and by when do you have all 2's and 3's in the game? This is at the H.S. level.
There are lots of variables, sure.
Such as, backups who might be nursing an injury. Depending on state associations, how many quarters a player (who swings JV and Vars) can play per week or per regular season.
Those who have coached long enough have pretty much seen it all. Jerk coaches who leave their 1's in until they have scored 50 points. Class coaches who will milk a lead even though they knew they could release the floodgates at anytime.
I coached with a guy who had been the HC for two years before I arrived. They had been terrible, losing games 42 to 7 on average. When I arrived, we had a nice run of talented athletes and were able to put together a championship season where we won by 4 TD's a game, on the average only giving up a little over 30 points for the season. There were times we could have buried our opponents but he always said that, "those are just kids out there and I've had my kids embarassed before but I won't take part in that."
I once played against a coach who was ahead at halftime 35 - 0. His team was heavily favored to win the state championship (which they did) and we were a 1st year high school with no seniors and six juniors. The final score of the game was 35-21. He rested all of his 1's in the second half and when we met after the game he said, "Well, we both won. We won the first half and you guys won the 2nd. Good luck next week!"
Hard to not cheer for guys like this.
What do you do?
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 14, 2007 23:58:57 GMT -6
I had two games this year where my 1's were done before the end of the 1st quarter and 6 others where they were out either right before half of right after. In games like that it's what's best for both teams- don't run it up and get your 2's and 3's game experience it's how you build depth.
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Post by coachjoe3 on Apr 15, 2007 0:22:12 GMT -6
I'd like to think I am.
I've had scores run up on my guys in the past and don't want to do it to other teams. One time, the scoreboard operator stopped keeping score and there was a running clock. The other team kept picking us apart with their exceptional passing game, even throwing for 2 pt. conversions w/ just a few minutes in the 4th.
I was stunned. We're not out there, the kids are. It's got to be about them and their experiences in this sport, IMO. Got to coach from that perspective . . .
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Post by coachjoe3 on Apr 15, 2007 0:24:41 GMT -6
I once played against a coach who was ahead at halftime 35 - 0. His team was heavily favored to win the state championship (which they did) and we were a 1st year high school with no seniors and six juniors. The final score of the game was 35-21. He rested all of his 1's in the second half and when we met after the game he said, "Well, we both won. We won the first half and you guys won the 2nd. Good luck next week!" Hats off to that coach.
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Post by coachbw on Apr 15, 2007 1:52:51 GMT -6
I probably leave our guys in longer than I should. I was once a part of a game where we were down 21 with 90 seconds left. The opponent had the ball, and we came back to win. That game has stuck with me and whenver we are up or down in a game I think about it.
That being said, if we are up I will start to call plays more conseratively, but I just have a hard time pulling guys. I also go religiously by the take-a-knee chart. It isn't that I am looking to score more by keeping my guys in, just trying to prevent the fumbled snaps & other miscues that seem to happen more when the 1's aren't in the game.
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Post by coachjim on Apr 15, 2007 3:51:20 GMT -6
Last year, we had several teams run up the score without even a second thought. One team kept kicking onside because it kept working, they would recover it, score, kick, recover, score, over and over. (I guess it's kind of funny now, but it wasn't then.) Our kids just kept missing it. It felt like someone was beating the crap out of my mother and there was nothing we could do about it. Obviously, none of the coaches we played last year subscribe to this website or they might have had a little more class.
Hrm, I'm glad I just remember that. Note to self: Don't skimp on special teams. 2nd Note to self: Paybacks a britch.
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Post by patrice on Apr 15, 2007 4:20:30 GMT -6
With my assistant coach we decide when we loose or win by more than 24 points we play our bench.
It work for us because all of our players can prove us something and we can watch the progression of each of our players. If we have somebody hurt there someone ready to replace him.
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Post by joetexas on Apr 15, 2007 4:55:00 GMT -6
It's not just about pulling off with a big lead. What about the score with just seconds left in the game?(unless you have a point total to decide your district standings) Rushing to the LOS to score with just seconds left in your playoff game when you are already up 15 is pretty classless. Ok, maybe I am just a little bitter! But, at some point you have to think of the team you are playing and THEIR kids as well.
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kdcoach
Sophomore Member
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Post by kdcoach on Apr 15, 2007 5:01:22 GMT -6
I'm a big believer in not running up the score. However, one of the determining factors in our playoff system in case of a tie here is "points scored against you by a common opponent". So, I'll sub in on offense when the game is obviously over, also get very conservative with play calling. However, there's a pretty good chance you will see my 1's on defense just about the entire game. We missed the playoffs (would have been our first trip ever) here last year by 20 points and if we would have tied the team that got in ahead of us we would have won that tie breaker based on the score of games that we both played against a team with a 2-8 record.
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Post by dubber on Apr 15, 2007 7:10:16 GMT -6
what about that taunting, disrespectful underdog?
We had a classless program come to our house this season, and they were really crappy to us----players and coaches......we dropped 50 or so in the 1st half.......we put in the JV, and against our paper thin line, they're blitzing 9----just killing these freshmen and sophomores! They could've set back in base and been fine.......so our HC puts the 1's back in and hangs a couple more on them........
...........I also know a coach who had a cerebal palysis kicker.....only kicked when they were up 50, and the coaches had a gentlemen's understanding that they wouldn't rush the kid if he got to kick, because he was probably going to miss anyway, well one team sent the house on a PAT, blocked the kicker and roughed up the kicker..............this coach put he number 1's back in and marched right down the field and scored again.
.........you guys think either of these situations is wrong?
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 15, 2007 8:17:36 GMT -6
I think everything's fair game until we get a 40 point lead to get the clock running. Except if it's the 4th quarter. If it's 35-0 at half I'm going to do everything in my power to score again to get the clock running.
As soon as that happens though, we're subbing liberally. It may also depend on the time of year, opponent, etc. If it is the last week of the year, I'll probably pull guys sooner to rest them for a playoff run. If it's a rival or something we may twist the knife just a little more too.
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Post by airraider on Apr 15, 2007 9:24:58 GMT -6
We have a 30/30 rule. If we are up 30 or down 30 then we will sub everyone. The only exception is if the other team is still trying to win the game.
If we are up 30 and they are airing it out and kicking onsides, then the game is obviously still in question and we will keep our 1's in.
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Post by saintrad on Apr 15, 2007 9:26:20 GMT -6
compared to the coachesaround m,y neck of the woods yes I would be concidered the class act. In a more normal place I would be on the positive side of that continum with some work left to be done.
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 15, 2007 9:28:08 GMT -6
Dubber- I think with your examples you can make an argument either way. When the other coach is pulling off the dogs then you should honor that- particularly when it's young kids he's sending out. I think you play mostly a base D but you have to expect them to try anything they can to score- no one wants a goose egg at the end.
LOL, any of you have parents rag you when you play your 2's and 3's? We had a game well in hand and I had all 2's and 3's on O and needless to say we were not as sharp as we generally are with our 1's. I actually had a few parents screaming to run something else "because those plays don't work"- the play calling was fine the execution was not great but for all those kids it was game experience and to some extent practice as well. Hard to believe some parents just don't get it- apparently at all, even when it very obvious what the circumstances are.
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Post by lionhart on Apr 15, 2007 9:38:12 GMT -6
i had the unfortunate experience of working under the biggest tool ever to roam the sidelines (only could stand him for one year then i left). we were dreadful, literally. we were so bad and he was such a bad coach i was actually embarrassed to be on the staff, and would often refuse to wear our team's gear on our own sideline.. opting for just a plain balck jacket. (i guess trying ot hide) anyway, this guy pissed off every team we played and made things worse forour kids. we lost every single game by 40 or more, and he refused to ever pull his starters. when the other team put in their jv, he would start using timeouts and throwing bombs. (as opposed tohis ingenious strategy during the rest of the game of qb sweep right, qb sweep left) other coaches hated him and would often keep in their varsity, i guess because we always did too. i confronted him about getting the younger kids some work one game and he screamed that putting in subs would be conceding defeat, and that he didnt want our kids to ever "give up". so i guess he thought it was better to have them decimated and demoralized every week. other coaches have since told me they would have put in their frosh and just ran off tackle for the entire second half, if this guy would have done the right thing. any thoughts on this? i refuse to even speak to the man to this day.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 15, 2007 9:53:06 GMT -6
lion - you are wise in moving on. Sometimes this has to happen. Make sure to have an exit interview with him (only because he is still working with kids and they need somebody acting in their behalf). If he's being a jerk about it, meet with the AD and express your concerns. Not in a way to get the guy fired, but in a way to help him improve as a coach for the sake of his players.
But be a class act about it and not somebody carrying an agenda just because it didn't work out for you.
As for choosing to not wear the team jacket? You needed to for the sake of the boys and being part of the team. That is just my opinion. If you chose to not wear it, because of your disgreement in philosophy, that's a conversation you should have had well before the game. If you were not in agreement, you probably should have resigned right there or bit the bullet and did what was expected and then resigned after the season like you did.
The problem I have is what the kids saw. They do notice and they will have opinions in their head. Most may tell you that they side with you but there is a silent (usually many......which is why they are called the "silent majority") group of players that may be questioning your motives. Don't underestimate H.S. football players, when it comes to the issue of loyalty and doing the team thing, they are constantly on the lookout for those who are pulling their weight. At least mine are.
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Post by los on Apr 15, 2007 10:04:04 GMT -6
Hmmm, if I believe my wife, I'd consider myself an obsessive, compulsive, overly competetive, self centered, semi-arrogant, stubborn, hard headed, moron! But, I'd like for others to think I was a class act, lol! Oh, forgot about stupid, boring, unimaginative and fat! lol.
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bigcroz
Junior Member
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Post by bigcroz on Apr 15, 2007 10:35:19 GMT -6
los - our wives must be related lol ;D
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Post by ajreaper on Apr 15, 2007 10:44:13 GMT -6
los- I can see where it's possible to be everything you listed but "OVERLY COMPETETIVE"
That's not even possible. You are either competetive or you are a communist and should be shipped out of the USA. Woman just don't get it;)
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Post by CVBears on Apr 15, 2007 12:29:34 GMT -6
So, the two's and three's are in the game. Does it still have to be run the ball on offense and vanilla on defense? Isn't one of the points of subbing down to get players game experience? Why not let the 2nd or 3rd QB throw a pass to the 5th or 8th WR? Let the 2nd MLB go on a blitz?
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Post by briangilbert on Apr 15, 2007 13:30:44 GMT -6
Class in a game that is as violent as football is completely overated and fictitious. As long as you're not cheating what is the problem with running up the score? If anything our culture is based on individuals and companies running up the score on their competition.
Just my opinion, of course keeping in mind that there can never be a just answer to this question. Everyone is right...
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Post by fbdoc on Apr 15, 2007 13:44:55 GMT -6
I believe I'm on board with most of these posts, and I can humbly reply that I have been called a "Class Act" many times in my career. There are some things in coaching that are absolutes that you just don't do, or you DO them because they are the right thing to do.
But I will also tell everyone who is reading this, that there is one school in our district, that if we ever have the opportunity to beat them badly, we will and I won't think twice about it.
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Post by los on Apr 15, 2007 13:48:12 GMT -6
los- I can see where it's possible to be everything you listed but "OVERLY COMPETETIVE" That's not even possible. You are either competetive or you are a communist and should be shipped out of the USA. Woman just don't get it;) Yeah, scary when you here it from someone who's supposed to know ya so well, lol! I always took offense to being called unimaginative more than anything? lol!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2007 14:48:14 GMT -6
I'd like to build on this a little more. To me, it's full go for three quarters and then you sub. If it's very out of hand, maybe sub towards the end of the third quarter. We have the mercy rule in IL and if a team puts together a good drive, it can take up the whole quarter. Also, I don't think it's right to put in a second or third QB, and then have him handoff the whole time. If both teams are playing with reserves, I don't think playcalling should change at all, offensively or defensively.
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Post by lionhart on Apr 15, 2007 16:30:58 GMT -6
touchdowng.... i appreciate the response. after reading my own post, i realize how it may have appeared as me having an "agenda". i did a poor job of adequately describing the situation... so here goes. the man insisted on being the oc, dc, and special teams coach all by himself. he refused input from any other staff member and often turned his headset off rather than consider the opinions of his assistants. he cursed out kids and about 10 kids quit rather than play for him. he screamed at officials and acted like a bafoon during games. he did'nt know the rules of the game, and would be yelling at official about something he was completely wrong about. we would meet as a staff wnd break down film, then work up our practice plans for the week. on monday afternoon, we would hit the field, and he would completely scrap the plan and do domething completely different (which noone on the staff would be prepared for). so...... i guess the fact that he would instigate the other coaches into pummeling us was just the icing on the cake. it was the worst experience of my life, and although i hate to admit it, if i didnt have kids to feed and wasn't relying on the check... i owuldve quit in the 3rd week. and as for the 20 or so kids left on the roster at the end of the season, about 18 of them begged me to apply for the head job and try to get this guy fired. i went in another direction and have left that behind me... but if i ever face the guy, i might hang 80 on him.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 15, 2007 16:44:22 GMT -6
lionhart .... that does paint a more extreme story about your HC. Does the admin have a clue? They need to be clued in because the HC, assuming this all true, is bad for young people.
briangilbert.... have you ever had 60 or 70 tagged on your boys when it wasn't necessary? I have and to me, it's nothing more than a misuse of power by somebody who is in charge but probably doesn't deserve to be. It's that old adage about people with the least amount of power wanting to use it the most and those with the most know how to use it when it's only necessary.
If it's war, that is different.
Last time I checked, high school football is classified as a game. Our state has a coaches code of conduct that is specific about sportsmanship and 99% of the coaches I've faced have been class acts. Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion and it should be respected. But thanks for being honest.
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Post by wingman on Apr 15, 2007 17:27:43 GMT -6
I am also hesitant to pull starters because we have had teams come back on us. If we are up by more than 3 tds in the 4th quarter, we'll start subbling. I will say some teams ask to be destroyed. We have been leading teams 50 + to 0 in the 2nd half and they are throwing every play stopping the clock and throwing interceptions. A backup safety runs one back for a td and they yell at us for running it up. Idiot. we also won't throw once we put our subs in. That being said, I have never complained about someone else running it up. I always think it's our job to get better. So far I've never come across anyone who kept onside kicking with a big lead. I've only heard of it once in the L.A. City section here because the coach wanted to set a passing record for his son. No one remembers those kinds of records but lots of people remember what a jackass the coach was and don't think much of the son although it would have taken a lot of guts to tell his dad they were both looking bad.
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Post by briangilbert on Apr 15, 2007 17:43:25 GMT -6
Touchdowng - Yea I have to be honest, I've been on both sides of the coin in the same season no less. I've been blown out by 40, and I've hanged 60 on teams... Either way if what you say is true, and it is "just a game" then I don't see how it matters either way.
But I'll explain why I would run the score up on teams we play if I had the chance.
#1 - Call it immoral but it will teach your kids how to finish the game and play hard for 4 quarters; this may be unethical to you but to me it's not. #2 - It creates a psychological war against your opponent, the next year you play them if you jump out to an early lead they may not believe they can beat you, and that a blowout is emminent.
Again, there is of course no right answer to this question because no one can decide another's morality. But I understand that if I engage in this philosophy that blowing people out is ok, from time to time I will get mine as well and get blown out. Such is life right? Hopefully we all learn enough how to not get blown out, or we can just change our schedule so we can be competitive.
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Post by touchdowng on Apr 15, 2007 18:38:29 GMT -6
I don't disagree with you from a technical standpoint. I don't believe you are being unethical if you are trying to score with your best team when there is 0:01 left on the clock even if you are up by 30, or so. Just hope you don't lose a player in the process and are willing to take the heat if this happens. But I doubt you are taking it to this level. And this is an entirely different discussion.
I once was on the bad end of the score during week 9 of a season and the team that was thumping us was ahead by 3 scores in the middle of the 4th. They were in control and continued to play their top tailback even though we had our 2's and 3's in on defense. They were trying to get him over 2,000 for the regular season. He broke his collarbone and they lost in the 1st round by a TD.
Billy Tubbs who was the U of Oklahoma hoop coach for years had said if he called off the dogs during a game, it would be point shaving and he could get into trouble with the NCAA. They liked to play their top 6-7 guys for all 40 minutes and pressed the entire game no matter the score. It's what he believed in.
It is a tough question to answer and I've been known to push the pedal to the metal against our rivals for all 48 minutes irregardless of the score, so I'm no angel. The rival coach is friend of mine 364 days a year and I know he would do the same.
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Post by groundchuck on Apr 15, 2007 18:49:40 GMT -6
If I am up and the outcome has been decided I would not be afraid to substitute liberally and play as many players as who are deserving on time on the field. I think it is good for team morale.
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