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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 11:56:13 GMT -6
wasn't quite sure where I typed that I didn't think 'character' WASN'T important........
Just that it isn't the teacher's responsibility to HAVE to do it....that isn't what they were hired to do.
If you can show up each day and teach me the significance of the Constitution and Women's Sufferage as a the American History teacher, you have taught me all the 'character' I effectively need (do your job and do it with as much passion that you have).
It would be nice to tell each kid about the Gospel of Christ to save their souls, but I wasn't hired for that.......unless I'm at a private christian school.
Do any of these Lifetime network scripts do anything to actually help mce's situation?
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Post by knighter on Feb 28, 2008 12:02:42 GMT -6
He did not ask for advice on solving his problem....(I don't think). He is asking if he is an "idealist", if it is just him who believes that character counts, that we should be teaching it...
Many of us simply posted to let him know that, in fact, he is not alone in his thinking....
Everything else I have posted has been more directed towards people blasting him for a situation that happened beyond his control, and to try to fill people in that not everyone coaches football to make the hall of fame or win 300 games....win at all costs, sure, but only if we do it by doing the right thing. I have sat some of my best athletes for things that many coaches on this board would have looked past....and frankly I do not care. If that is what it takes for them to figure out I mean what I say, so be it.
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Post by knighter on Feb 28, 2008 12:07:23 GMT -6
It may not have been what "you were hired for". I agree with you 100%, but in the process of teaching SS (or any subject matter) there is SO much more being taught than the "curriculum". You role model behavior on a daily basis, and I know for a fact Brophy if a kid gets out of line at practice you handle it, so yes my friend you are teaching character (you just don't "see" it that way).
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 12:08:13 GMT -6
Great. Lets say character ISN'T important - what is mce gonna do? Shut up and join the "21st Century Ethics"? Learn to deal with it? Lets say character IS important, but the guy he works for is really only concerned about winning games and is inconsistent in enforcement of rules / academics? It obviously is a big deal to mce so he can; 1) sit out another year or look for a different gig 2) find some way to influence / convince the HC to do things he (HC) isn't aware of (or doesn't care about). 3) bide his time, biting his tongue, and remain miserable. It may not have been what "you were hired for". I agree with you 100%, but in the process of teaching SS (or any subject matter) there is SO much more being taught than the "curriculum". You role model behavior on a daily basis, and I know for a fact Brophy if a kid gets out of line at practice you handle it, so yes my friend you are teaching character (you just don't "see" it that way). actually I'm not disagreeing with anyone (actually), but the subject matter is not congruent. Punishment and consequences are a result of behavior mod. Those aren't the only way to build character and build citizens. The discussion becomes muddied because there are a lot of concepts being thrown together so that 2+2 = 6. Severity of consequences isn't relative to the amount of 'character' being taught. Absolute Law / Rule does not equate to role modelling 'character'. Neglecting to talk about 'character' does not directly lead to the fall of Western civilization.
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Post by gschwender on Feb 28, 2008 12:15:01 GMT -6
I think that it is what teachers are hired to do in a sense b/c I know at the small school I teach at there are things warned against which comes with the territory of gbeing a teacher. Most are obvious like immoral behavior. We had a coach that moonlightes as a bartender in town once and the AD told him he could not do it anymore. They do this so that teachers will model good charecter values. I know people will jump on the working at a bar instance, but what credibility would that coach have if he told that kid to not drink? I know that the coach is old enough to as is the people who frequent the establishment but you cannot say "Do as i say not as i do" to kids. I think that teaching/modelling good charecter is a teacher/coach's responsibility. I think that it is the parent's responsibility as well although we all know that many parents drop the ball in this category. I try to go about coaching/teaching as if all of the kids I come in contact with were my kids. And i think if someone does that it puts the responsibility of teaching charecter as their responsibility.
As far as the situation that was brought up origionally, I think that the coach needs to ask himself what he wants to do. Can he change the HC? He can hold himself and the kids that are directly under his control to have charecter when he is around even if the hc does not--iy is tougher but kids respond the your expectations. If that is an impossibility, then I would suggest that the coach find another place to go that fits his idea of what should be done. It is like any job--change what you do not like, or move to another job that fits your ideas.
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 12:17:41 GMT -6
okay, last post in this thread....and (finally) I'll get to the point.
How many of you directly, consciously teaching "character", communicate with their parents what you do/did for these character lessons? Or is this just something you save for "your world" (within the building)?
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Post by knighter on Feb 28, 2008 12:23:46 GMT -6
I did in Holstein, and communicated with parents EXACTLY what I was teaching and why. Had a ton of positive feedback from parents who appreciated it as it was nice that their kids were getting it from several different people.
I spent at least 25 minutes a week teaching character, and did a leadership class with ALL seniors...probably the most complimented part of everything I did while I was at GH.
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Post by gschwender on Feb 28, 2008 12:27:17 GMT -6
I would like to get to that point, but for the time being I just have conversations about different things that happen in the community/national level that show good/bad charecter and try to model it for the kids and telling them why something is the right/wrong way of doing things--but i would love to take 10-15 min of practice time each day and have them in the classroom to teach just charecter--maybe when i get more power within my program!!
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Post by eagledp on Feb 28, 2008 12:28:04 GMT -6
liberalhater, i see what you are saying, i think 99% of the posts on this thread have had legit points, we just all go about it our different ways. some like to talk about it, some don't. some make a big deal about doing right, and some address it as "well congratulations, you did the RIGHT THING." Each has its merits. We can all agree on one thing, (high school at least) we don't do it for the money.
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Post by knighter on Feb 28, 2008 12:30:51 GMT -6
and by the way Behavior Modification IS one way to teach character....it is what my new place of employment is based on, and I am witnessing it working on a daily basis.
Some kids know "right" from "wrong", some need to be taught, and some need to feel the consequences of "wrong" and of "right" to understand totally what they are.
So again I agree to disagree with you on this. If you are not teaching/coaching character issues, you are missing part of the boat (not all). There is SO much more value in teaching life lessons and sending productive members of society into the "real world" than there is in winning games. I am more proud of the kids who learn through football that HARD WORK and SUCCESS go hand in hand than in any number of wins I have ever had. Several kids relate football to school work (college and HS) if they "work hard" they will learn the material and get good grades. Several more have commented that being a part of the "family" and holding themselves and other accountable for bad behavior/choices etc. have helped them to remain on the right side of the law....
Again that is what I believe, not saying you HAVE to believe the same. But again I am always right....LOL
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Post by gschwender on Feb 28, 2008 12:35:34 GMT -6
I agree. i know that this thread has gotten somewhat off-topic from the origional post, but I think that it sparked a good discussion on the matter, and I see good points in all of the posts made. I think that it makes all of us better at what we do.
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Post by knighter on Feb 28, 2008 12:38:02 GMT -6
again pointing out that it is okay for us to disagree, i know i am not fighting. brophy is one of my bestest on line buddies...disagreement helps me to solidify my belief system, and vice versa...we learn from healthy disagreements.
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Post by eagledp on Feb 28, 2008 12:44:36 GMT -6
definitely agree that the walk is the most important part
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 12:52:12 GMT -6
brophy is one of my bestest on line buddies.... THIS GUY CAN PROVE ITSo to round the discussion out, with all the viewpoints expressed.... WHAT WOULD BE A HEALTHY COURSE OF ACTION FOR MCE? 1) assume the role of new 'lowly' assistant and just pay his dues? 2) mention it to the HC in passing (what worked at.....) 3) ask HC why there is no character mentoring program 4) offer to implement a program FOR the HC (see what he says) 5) engage the HC on program philosophy and benefit/risks of investing in character I mean, this all sounds nice, but lets say he can bend the HC's ear.........now, what? You would still have an entire staff (and culture) that needs to buy in (friends of the HC that didn't believe in character building)
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Post by gschwender on Feb 28, 2008 12:56:58 GMT -6
Change the HC or move on
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Post by coachorr on Feb 28, 2008 13:00:12 GMT -6
I just work here. Not my job.
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Post by eagledp on Feb 28, 2008 13:03:02 GMT -6
do all you can to walk it, maybe the HC will see your example and like it
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Post by coachorr on Feb 28, 2008 13:29:39 GMT -6
I agree with LiberalHater, no sense in spending practice time on it and what you do means more than you say.
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Post by coachveer on Feb 28, 2008 13:35:11 GMT -6
Do all you can to work with the HC to try to make improvements. If you still can't sleep at night then it is time to move on sleep at night then it is time to move on.
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Post by khalfie on Feb 28, 2008 13:37:14 GMT -6
Can't believe what I'm reading...
1. I didn't want to get too involved in this thread, because when I do... the threads get locked, and I get disciplinary private messages telling me where I went wrong!
2. However, some of things being posted by a few gentlemen, in an effort to keep it real... (when keeping it real, goes real wrong!)... have to be addressed.
Bro said... Not to be a smartass, but are any of you guys actually reading these posts?
the author of the thread, or liberhaters.....
Who are you? The post nazi? You are the only one complaining about the direction of this thread... the person who started the thread found a lot of value in the opinions being expressed... and yet, you feel the need, to tell us what we should be discussing, and how we should answer his question? You need to check yourself on that one Bro!
Secondly, do any of you actually think someone is going to get on here and say "I will win by any means necessary!" (if you check, that isn't what liberhater wrote)?
HUH? Liberalhater has said it... continues to say it... and it is the thesis of his dialouge... what posts are you reading?
So if all we are going to do is agree with this 'the children are our future" rhetoric and not address the issue the author presented, what is the point?
Umm.... that is the point... either children are the future or they are merely commodities to be used to improve your coaching record... seems like you've stated your position quite clearly.
He is returning to the profession, but feels THE GUY HE WILL BE WORKING FOR, may be misguided in the message he sends to the kids though the direction of the program. The author doesn't need to re-affirm his belief that character-building is important (maybe I read that wrong).
Thank you for telling us what the author MEANT to say... we do appreciate that... more so, that question was answered a million times over... read the posts... its not about what the HC's philosophy, its about his personal philosophy... how important is it to him that the kids are modeled character, professionalism, and work ethic? If its very important... get after it... if its not... then what was the point of the post. He can't control what the HC does... so its a non-factor... the only item of importance, is what he's going to do, demonstrate and teach on a daily basis...
Which brings me to your next post! Can't believe you wrote the following...
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Post by khalfie on Feb 28, 2008 13:52:19 GMT -6
Bro said...
At the risk of offending 98% of the members of this board, if the educational system is supposed to teach kids how to survive in the 'real world' and function as adults, it fails miserably in my opinion.
Let me see if I understand you correctly... are you stating our educational system is failing our society? Thanks for the news flash...
And according to your posts... teaching the kids anything beyond what they are already not learning is the answer? Righhhttt... I see... Johnny's not going to class, reading his books, or doing his homework... don't try to teach him what it means to be a man, so that hopefully he can find those things important... instead... kick him out of school, and then bad mouth the educational institutions on how bad they are failing society.
Or maybe, we could take Liberalhaters view, and only get all the "all a's" students, so we can say the educational system creates nothing but winners!
Does the idealist belief that you can save every kid by being a teacher may get you out of bed in the morning and to your job, but the reality that we're able to erase 17 years of irresponsible upbringing is far-fetched.
17 years? As a football coach... I meet most of my kids at 13... hopefully, I'm not the only one in their ear, and a grandparent, uncle, neighbor, big brother, youth leader, someone else, has been saying exactly what I'm saying, so that when I say it... with the football in my hand, it finally begins to mean something.
You can play the pessimist all you want... but I have to ask, why are you with the children... and man, am I glad you aren't with mine! You're sounding quite bitter, and are probably right... you don't have a thing to teach kids about character, and it may be for the best that you are not trying to.
We put kids in school so they we can train them to take our educational standards test. We need them to perform well on our tests, or we're not going to get state / federal funding. If we don't get funding we can't get raises or new computers. It isn't about cultivating minds for prosperous citizenship, it is about training young minds to obey and recite. ........follow the money, and you'll see why we all are seeking the administrator positions.
Tell me you just didn't type that... tell me you just didn't write... "we put kids in school so they can take test!" Shame on you... you're telling on yourself... You want to know why our educational system is failing, is because some folks really don't give a dman... some parents don't give a dman, some teachers don't give a dman... and we wonder why the students don't give a dman...
Follow the money huh? Riggghhht!
Football coaches are generally hired to win games, however. If you don't win games, you WILL be fired. If you do win games, you will prolong the eventual firing process.
You have demons bruh...
The with-us-or-against-us / all-or-nothing logic of this thread is ridiculous.
The only thing ridiculous, is you and Liberalhater, trying to justify treating kids as commodities to win football games...
Especially when, winning football games correlates directly with the players being accountable and responsible.
You want to teach kids to win... but want to neglect the foundations of success!
You need five things to be successful... none of which you can have if you are not accountable and responsible. 1. Desire 2. Persistence 3. Courage 4. Commitment 5. Confidence...
You don't get your kids to focus on those five attributes... you forget about your precious WINNING!
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 13:58:24 GMT -6
after reading that, Khalfie, I have to ask. Are you "Dog" the Bounty Hunter, brahhh? self-righteous indignation never goes out of style. Just so I'm clear, you are preaching the importance of character-building while name-calling people that disagree with you?
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Post by khalfie on Feb 28, 2008 14:03:14 GMT -6
Just that it isn't the teacher's responsibility to HAVE to do it....that isn't what they were hired to do. If you can show up each day and teach me the significance of the Constitution and Women's Sufferage as a the American History teacher, you have taught me all the 'character' I effectively need (do your job and do it with as much passion that you have). It would be nice to tell each kid about the Gospel of Christ to save their souls, but I wasn't hired for that.......unless I'm at a private christian school. Do any of these Lifetime network scripts do anything to actually help mce's situation? Wow... I never read the teachers job description... but if it only says, recite the curriculum, then yes Bro... you are right... However, if it even says, what you say it says... show up each day and teach me the significance of the Constitution and Women's Sufferage as a the American History teacherThen you my friend are lost in the wind, and don't even know it. How are you going to teach something, a kid may have no interest in learning? Sure, its easy to teach to kids that want to learn... but how do you teach to the kids that don't want to learn? How do you get kids to work hard for a team, they really aren't invested in being a part of? Sure.. I know your answer is, "you don't"... You and Liberalhater only work with kids that are winners. However, some other teachers, take their charge a little more serious. You said it yourself, that the job is to teach... if the kid doesn't learn, then you didn't teach... you failed... you lost... you are a loser. And we know how important winning is to you. So to win... how does the teacher get the student to learn? According to our educational system... they don't and hence the system is failing society... but what does it matter, the system only works if society deems education important... Unless, a few men of influence, can turn an ordinarily bad situation around... and no everyone can't do it... but I think the majority of the men, that call themselves COACH... believe they can make a bad situation better... Sorry you don't share that sentiment... and that's real... I am very sorry!
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Post by khalfie on Feb 28, 2008 14:08:19 GMT -6
okay, last post in this thread....and (finally) I'll get to the point. How many of you directly, consciously teaching "character", communicate with their parents what you do/did for these character lessons? Or is this just something you save for "your world" (within the building)? I don't get the question... Of course the parents are involved... its the foundation of how we are going to turn the program around... we are going to focus on creating young men of character... if we are successful with that, then winning will take care of itself... Over the next four years I intend to teach your son how to focus on the things he can control... and if we can focus on the things we can control, we will be successful... That's the beginning of the speech at the parent meeting... that's the first few lines of the first letter sent home... I don't get your line of questioning... and where you are trying to take this discussion.
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 14:10:40 GMT -6
I don't get your line of questioning... and where you are trying to take this discussion. do folks follow-through? Do you talk to the parents about Johnny and Steve and not just say that "whatever I do, I'm teaching character", or are we calling up or visiting Johnny's parents and letting them know things that Johnny is doing that they can follow up with? Is this working with parents on character-building, or 'teacher-knows-best'?
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Post by khalfie on Feb 28, 2008 14:15:04 GMT -6
after reading that, Khalfie, I have to ask. Are you "Dog" the Bounty Hunter, brahhh? self-righteous indignation never goes out of style. Just so I'm clear, you are preaching the importance of character-building while name-calling people that disagree with you? Yes... yes I am... And just for the record... what name did I call you?
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Post by bulldogoption on Feb 28, 2008 14:34:49 GMT -6
Brophy,
You need to get on Big Brother or Survivor..............
Your brain works fast. I would be voted out in the middle of the show. Nice enough to last past the first morons/jerks who are voted out, but not wise enough to see the plots against me after the alliances start.
You could do some damage on those shows. Seriously.
I asked a question a couple months ago about whether or not we should actually TEACH character, not just model it. (I plan to this year for the first time). Your point about teachers'/coaches' motives being self-serving stings and makes me think. Are we making ourselves feel better by teaching character? But in the end not really doing the things that we could/should by working WITH parents. That is a valid point.
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 14:47:48 GMT -6
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Post by thunder17 on Feb 28, 2008 14:57:04 GMT -6
Sounds like a private vs public issue as well. Told myself I would stay away from this one! Dang it.
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Post by brophy on Feb 28, 2008 15:10:55 GMT -6
where the discussion goes South is the myopic view that you can't have both. You can't teach character, because you have to win games. You can teach character, but you won't win games. "Leadership" is 'character-in-action'. If you can teach that, your players have become more valuable. If I have a coach that can teach the hell out of DBs - that is what I want. If the guy is a drunk, he STILL CAN COACH, but he may be a personal liability. If I have a coach that is a decent DB coach, but is a youth pastor. The guy still may be a lousy coach, but he is a personal asset to the program (because we don't have to worry about him). Do you coaches HAVE to teach their kids to lift weights? No, they don't HAVE to. The coach that doesn't will severely limit the worth of his team, however. It is the same equation for 'character'. 'Character' teaching is not just following orders and suffering for suffering's sake - it is about choosing what is best for everyone and doing "the right thing". Sometimes "doing the right thing", goes against the grain, is uncomfortable, requires sacrifice. Sometimes doing the right thing is doing what just makes sense. The other dynamic to look at is the fact that we have to be mindful not to ABUSE the authority figure role. We are not there to have minions serve our egos / or create buddies we can play PS2 with. The context of athlete and coach is a dicey one - the athlete is naturally in a position to seek approval from the coach. The personal relationship that develops as a result of this interaction is the one we have to aware of, without trying to replace the role of their player's natural parents......forcing our views and belief-system onto the kids (good/bad). Unfortunately, THIS THREAD didn't start with that. It started with a coach asking about a difficult situation he was in. It sounded like he ALREADY knew that 'character was important'. If I were mce, I would have to think, "what is important to me. Do I want to be an (likely frustrated) agent of change? How well do I think I can get along (get through) to the head coach?". If I don't put a lot of weight on the HC being receptive to a cultural overhaul (in the absence of character leadership, that is what he'll be facing), I wouldn't think the 'gig' would be worth the emotional stress and frustration the season and all its problems (seeing the program shoot itself in the foot) will bring me and my family. However, that decision will be different for each man.
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