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Post by hlb2 on Dec 19, 2008 21:41:08 GMT -6
Coaches, I am currently the head coach at a small school with only 4 coaches for both JV and varsity. We were awful this year and went 0-10 with a meat grinder of a schedule. Of course, I'm now the village idiot around here and don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground so I'm trying to right the ship somewhat. I went through and evaluated every position as a group based on all of our films and here is what I came up with: Offense: RB-B QB-C WR-D OL-F
Defense: DL: D LB: D DB: C
I'm fixing to go through evaluating each coach on the basis of this and was wondering if that was a good idea? What I graded on had little to do with effort and all on technique and execution. I have to look at first were our kids capable of doing what we asked them to do physically and mentally? Did they know what they were supposed to do? And lastly were they not willing to do what was asked of them? Now our offensive line was awful and this is the coach I'm most concerned about. I cannot afford to lose any coaches, but this guy year in and year out does not produce in my opinion. Don't get me wrong he's a great guy and knows a ton about football but our offensive lines never seem to get better. I ask myself why? To me it has to be the coach. The reason I say this is I've watched him for 6 years now, and I see the same thing, terrible technique, linemen who do not get off the ball and who are lazy etc. Am I barking up the wrong tree here? The reason I'm asking is he's somewhat hot-tempered and I know there will be a conflict when I basically blame him for our offensive line's failing grade. At this level, how much should you expect out of an assistant who is making peanuts for a stipend to begin with? I don't want to get rid of him as I need coaches, but I'm of the mentality "no one is necessary" and I feel he either needs to sh!t or get off the pot. Basically put is what I'm doing wrong for the level of ball we play? I come from a college background and I know what the answer is at that level, but I'm not 100% sure how to handle it at this level. Any thoughts?
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Post by coachorr on Dec 19, 2008 22:17:13 GMT -6
I do not have many answers here, but one question I have is this. "Does he run out of drills or get bored in practice, especially during individual time?"
This may seem too broad, but the best Oline coaches are the ones who cannot rep fundamentals enough and who are always begging for more and more Indy time.
As a long time oline coach, I would start there. And if I were you, I would take over the Offensive line. We as oline coaches cannot get enough reps, cannot get enough steps, blocks, landmarks, finishes, etc. It's what makes an offensive line to become tough and disciplined. When olinemen get out of the bed in the morning they should land in a three or two point stance and duck walk to the bathroom with their hips cocked and their hands pumping and pounding nails...it is so natural.
There is no substitute for the weight room.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 19, 2008 22:18:35 GMT -6
Moreover, the best coaches are the ones who take 100% of the blame. Either there was a lack of coaching and preparation and/or the wrong people on the bus.
Now, on the flip side. I have worked with HC/OC's who have said, "I don't want to hear that there are too many guys in the box." Heard that many times. Not trying to be confrontational, but is the offense a "system" and is the system balanced.
I was a long time wing-t oline guy and the only time we would throw the ball is occasionally on 3rd and long and that was Waggle pass (a play with two PA's and two guards pulling). So, the oline does need a little help.
I left a place that brought in an OC who said, "Oline is the most important position on the field, I expect them to get it done one on one or they won't play for me". Followed by the subsequent comment, "I watch film and find the weak player and we pick on him all night". Hmm...that may have worked three divisions lower but at the 4A and 5A level, there aren't too many orphan Annies on the field in a helmet and shoulder pads.
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Post by DLine06 on Dec 19, 2008 22:23:06 GMT -6
Coach...
I truly believe in this quote: "Games are won and lost between the offensive and defensive line."
One of the questions I would look and ask yourself is: Do you think your skill players (such as your QB's, LB's/DB's) were bad because of their own technique or did not have the time to execute their jobs due to the line play was poor?
For you to give your offensive linemen an F, there's obviously something wrong... Here's another question: why did you give the runningback a B... because of his catching, pass protection and running ability.
Just judging alone by the grades (though I could misinterepret them), it sounds like you have a team built to run the football rather than pass.
As far as the defense, possibly a number of problems can be solved if the defensive line is tweaked (might need to make adjustments, change the front, simply things, etc).
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Post by coachorr on Dec 19, 2008 22:27:52 GMT -6
Yes, and F at oline, something has to change.
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Post by khalfie on Dec 19, 2008 22:34:45 GMT -6
Coach...
The only one that gets a failing grade... is you.
Now I say that, being a coach that has gone 0-9... with a small staff... and very limited coaching experience...
But here's the deal. As HC's our job is to coach up our assts. if they are performing poorly, the HC is performing poorly.
With that being said... when you said you had a bad team, I would have bet my left planters peanut that your o-line performed poorly, and your defense wasn't up to par... I'm not psychic Gina or anything... but that's the essence of football... defense and oline play.
Now if you agree with me, that those to factions of football are of utmost importance... then where should the HC position coach? Oline is my thought... I'll never let another man coach my bubbas, until he proves he's more invested than myself... I need the bubbas... need them to know I need them... and more so, if they fail, we all fail... and they will only fail, if I fail.
Defensively...
Everyone loves the offense... wants to coach the QB and RB's...
Let's be real for a second... we put our best kids at QB and RB... who needs the most attention? Our best kids... or those that no one remembers until they hold or jump offsides?
And again... if the other team can't score, you can't lose... the best teams, always have outstanding defenses. The only time they aren't outstanding is when they are losing to a team with a more outstanding defense. IMHO, you measure your worth in your defensive coaching... when you can stop a team, your offense seems even that more effective... they get that many more chances to be successful...
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Post by hlb2 on Dec 19, 2008 22:35:41 GMT -6
I looked at basic technique, stance start, no false step etc. Running the ball to me is natural and there are very little fundamentals other than ball security that are coached here. Our RB's ran decent routes and did not put the ball on the ground and for the most part were very good blockers. I am a former offensive guard at both the high school and collegiate level and I've had my fill with coaching that position. I do not get any reward out of coaching that position (I guess because it is so familiar). This guy's been doing it for 20 years and should be better, but he's not. As I said he's a great guy, but it may be time for some fresh air.
I'm a firm beleiver that when the offensive line comes to team after indy they should be dead. They are getting hit on every play and must execute on every play so they need to learn how to play tired. This coach does more "talking" than coaching and I've gotten on to him about that. Anyhow, thanks for the input, I just didn't know if I was being too overbearing at the high school level.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 19, 2008 22:52:09 GMT -6
Win and die by the line.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Dec 19, 2008 23:00:03 GMT -6
Well, I was going to ask if you've evaluated your schemes to see if you were hanging your OL out to dry, but since you're a former OL and OL coach I've got faith that you didn't. I would re-evaluate your schemes if you had a lot of missed assignments though. Maybe even take some of your bigger, slower LB/TE/FB and put them there. My HS team had a lot of success with that.
Do you have spring practice in your district?
One solution you might want to try, instead of just chewing the OL coach out, is to see if he might prefer to switch to another position. You said he knows a lot about football and is a good guy who's been there a long time, so maybe he would be happier working with the defensive backfield or something. It could be a political nightmare for a new HC who just went 0-10 if you "scapegoat" a well-liked longtime assistant, even if it's because he's incompetent.
If he goes for the idea, move him there and shuffle your existing staff around for spring practice. Get the kids in the weightroom. You take over the OL/DL in the spring and work with them temporarily. Then, evaluate how well your assistant's done with the new group he took over, and see if your lineman have improved significantly with a couple of weeks of your coaching. If you see no fundamental improvement, he should go. If he does better, you coach the lines until you can hire "your guy" to take over.
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Post by khalfie on Dec 19, 2008 23:01:18 GMT -6
To me it has to be the coach. The reason I say this is I've watched him for 6 years now, and I see the same thing, terrible technique, linemen who do not get off the ball and who are lazy etc. Am I barking up the wrong tree here? A couple of questions... What position did you coach? Why have you allowed, someone you believe to be a poor Oline coach, coach your oline for 6 years? You're afraid to lose a guy that's doing a horrible job? What's the responsibility of the HC?
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Post by coachinghopeful on Dec 20, 2008 0:32:01 GMT -6
Wait... I missed the part where you said you'd watched him for 6 years. I was under the impression you were new. In that case, why wasn't he gone a long time ago!?!?
I know people might like him, and you like him as a person, but if you're certain he's a lousy coach you're doing every kid on your team a disservice by keeping him. At least give him an ultimatim that he needs to raise his performance in spring ball or go. If he gets hotheaded, dump the insubordinate SOB.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2008 4:47:30 GMT -6
I am a former offensive guard at both the high school and collegiate level and I've had my fill with coaching that position. I do not get any reward out of coaching that position (I guess because it is so familiar). This guy's been doing it for 20 years and should be better, but he's not. As I said he's a great guy, but it may be time for some fresh air. This coach does more "talking" than coaching and I've gotten on to him about that. Anyhow, thanks for the input, I just didn't know if I was being too overbearing at the high school level. Coach - I have to tell you...if you don't like what you are seeing, it's either because you are coaching it that way OR letting it happen. In this particular case, I would have to say that you are letting this happen. You have a guy who has been coaching the MOST IMPORTANT position on the offense for 6 years who isn't doing things the way that you, the HC want them to be done. Whose fault is that? YOU are the man...YOU are the guy who has to make tough decisions at times. That's why you are the head coach. And I really take issue with your statement that you have "had your fill" of coaching the O-line. Guess what? You are the head coach so everything that happens on Friday night is a reflection of YOU. You don't get the luxury of choosing to coach the positions that are "fun"...no, your job, as head coach, is to demand accountability of your position coaches and if/when they don't do things the way you want them done, it is time for you to step in. You can't worry about hurting people's feelings...you have a guy who is dead weight. It is YOUR responsibility, as head coach, to right the ship.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 20, 2008 5:43:05 GMT -6
I am not going to read everything above but I have always had an issue with a HC on a losing team THROWING HIS ASSISTANTS UNDER THE BUS.
Are you allowing your assistants a chance to vent and make suggestions to you about the program, you keep your mouth shut and really listen. Then without an argument, take about 3 or 4 weeks to just mull over everything they said and then make some decisions on what needs to change?
Are you allowing them to grade you?
Ok, enough of that. My first thought in reading your post was that the failing offensive line grade is unacceptable and the fact that you see they are failing and yet allow someone else to coach the oline speaks volumes. Take over the line play, keep the line coach with you and you do it the way you want it done so that your assistant learns how to do it.
A good coach must coach his assistant.
I am also at a small school and basically have no experienced assistant coaches so I coach every position while they are learning. I often start drills and say "keep this going, watch for this, this and this" and then I have to move on.
I would never dream of grading my assistants though I would certainly consider changing responsibilty. My offensive line is my responsibility, I give my next best coach my backfield and the other coaches who are part timers are really "run the drill" guys until they get more experience.
This off season I have already provided training video to two of my coaches and have given more responsibility to one while decreasing the job of the other. One of my coaches will scout on friday nights as that suits him more than anything else. (he actually wanted to do this as he felt that he could make a better contribution doing that). I agreed.
Anyhow, bottom line. Without a good offensive line you have nothing. you had better coach your own line.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 20, 2008 5:52:53 GMT -6
I just can't relate to the comment about not getting fullfillment out of coaching the oline. There is a lot of value to winning in the oline and as a HC I would think it would be the best place to invest my time to make sure that winning was more of a possibility.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 20, 2008 6:07:11 GMT -6
The two worst coaches I ever worked for both had guys they didnt relate to coaching their lines.
one guy didnt speak to his oline coach from November to August. The head coach spent tons of time with his backs and receivers and doodling formations and pass/run actions but never had a grasp on blocking schemes.
the other guy had no clue what his oline coach was up to during the course of a practice. They often did not agree on terminology, scheme or technique. I recall watching as the oline coach took his players behind the equipment shed to tell jokes in the shade during two a days. The staff would argue over how to block things and what to call things during camp. Just unreal.
No way bro, I am not the one. I wouldnt let Joe freaking Bugel coach my oline. I got to coach my own and make a big deal about the hogs in every way, every day.
heres the question on my mind, whats with letting a coach with a hot temper hold you hostage? be the head coach and tell him how it is.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2008 6:43:36 GMT -6
Coach, I'll echo the rest of the coaches here...The O line is the heart of any team, you can't survive without one.
However, I don't think you need to get rid of the coach, maybe he can be relocaed to another poistion, if he's so knowledgeable. Good people are what you want around your program plus you couls always use more help
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 20, 2008 7:13:44 GMT -6
I just can't relate to the comment about not getting fullfillment out of coaching the oline. There is a lot of value to winning in the oline and as a HC I would think it would be the best place to invest my time to make sure that winning was more of a possibility. I agree..this statement kind of surprised me to. It could be one of the critical factors underlying the entire situation.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2008 8:02:15 GMT -6
That is your own fault. and it seems to me that you fear the conflict with him and I bet $100 he already knows you fear it. I was thinking the same thing. I worked with a guy like this a couple of years back. Guy was really surly and refused to do things the head coach's way, mostly because the head coach was soft and wouldn't stand up to the guy. This guy knew the head coach didn't like conflict and really exploited it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 20, 2008 8:48:46 GMT -6
Thanks for the big league info there coacher, that has nothing to do with anything...but out of curiosity, what would be the answer at that level? I could be wrong, but what I think he is implying is that at the college level, the coaching replacement process is considerably neater/cleaner. "Thank you for your time" sometimes there is a hand shake, the desk is cleaned out, recruiting logs/files returned and you start to interview. At the HS level, it is often more difficult due to the nature of the high school coaching position. Often, the replaced/fired coach is still in the building, still in contact with the players/parents, still in contact with faculty members and administrators. Obviously the worse case scenario is that he is in contact, and is well liked. That fired coach is usually still holding a teaching position, making it just that much more difficult to replace.
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Post by brophy on Dec 20, 2008 9:19:37 GMT -6
1. post your game film - let others be the judge of it
2. How is your off-season weight program looking?
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Post by phantom on Dec 20, 2008 10:08:18 GMT -6
Coaches, I am currently the head coach at a small school with only 4 coaches for both JV and varsity. We were awful this year and went 0-10 with a meat grinder of a schedule. Of course, I'm now the village idiot around here and don't know my a$$ from a hole in the ground so I'm trying to right the ship somewhat. I went through and evaluated every position as a group based on all of our films and here is what I came up with: Offense: RB-B QB-C WR-D OL-F Defense: DL: D LB: D DB: C I'm fixing to go through evaluating each coach on the basis of this and was wondering if that was a good idea? What I graded on had little to do with effort and all on technique and execution. I have to look at first were our kids capable of doing what we asked them to do physically and mentally? Did they know what they were supposed to do? And lastly were they not willing to do what was asked of them? Now our offensive line was awful and this is the coach I'm most concerned about. I cannot afford to lose any coaches, but this guy year in and year out does not produce in my opinion. Don't get me wrong he's a great guy and knows a ton about football but our offensive lines never seem to get better. I ask myself why? To me it has to be the coach. The reason I say this is I've watched him for 6 years now, and I see the same thing, terrible technique, linemen who do not get off the ball and who are lazy etc. Am I barking up the wrong tree here? The reason I'm asking is he's somewhat hot-tempered and I know there will be a conflict when I basically blame him for our offensive line's failing grade. At this level, how much should you expect out of an assistant who is making peanuts for a stipend to begin with? I don't want to get rid of him as I need coaches, but I'm of the mentality "no one is necessary" and I feel he either needs to sh!t or get off the pot. Basically put is what I'm doing wrong for the level of ball we play? I come from a college background and I know what the answer is at that level, but I'm not 100% sure how to handle it at this level. Any thoughts? Something that puzzles me is that you're just now evaluating and grading each position now that the season is over. Why hasn't this been done at weekly staff meetings during the season?
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Post by jpdaley25 on Dec 20, 2008 10:32:16 GMT -6
I don't have much to add, but I can sympathize with your situation. I have one coach on staff at my school and 4 community coaches that I can barely afford to pay, and I need them. None of them, when they started, had the expertise to coach at the high school level, so I had to teach them what to do, and I had to do it without holding endless meetings because they all have other jobs and families and they all coach little league football as well. So, I spent 100's of hours making a book (itinerary, coaching guide, practice schedule) of easy to follow instructions of what to do at each position that was detailed to the nth degree and down to the minute for them to follow. Every step and every second was spelled out for them. Another thing I did to help teach them (and to get more individual work) was to hold split practices for the first week of spring and the first week of the fall. The first two hours of practice was just OL and DL . Now we have six OL and DL coaches, each with a specific plan, and I have the opportunity to model for them exactly how to do it. We get a lot of fundamental work done, the OL and DL get 6 times the coaching, and all of the coaches gain an understanding of OL and DL play. Then we have another 2 hour practice and do the same thing with the skill guys. We call it Iron Man coaching - 4 and a half hour practices, and our coaches take pride in the fact that we as coaches are working harder than any other coaches around. The receiver coach gets to work with linemen, the lineman coach gets to work with backs and receivers, and I get to work with every position and every coach. Doing it this way, I have found, brings us together as a staff and as a team. If the OL isn't getting it done, it's not the OL coach's fault, it's all our faults because we all coach the OL. Necessity is the mother of invention, and I stumbled onto something that was very beneficial for our team and our staff. I found a way to teach and correct coaches without bruising egos and running off coaches that I couldn't afford to lose. If we are having problems at a certain position, we go back to the fundamentals with a split practice and all of the staff focused on it. Once I felt comfortable that the coaches knew what to do, I let them take ownership by saying, "Today, focus on what you think they need the most." Now, my coaches know what to do, they are invested, they have ownership, they are happy, and I don't have to be an A-hole all the time. Maybe some of these ideas will help you.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 20, 2008 10:40:59 GMT -6
I have never seen you coach or been to a practice obviously, but from reading your post it seems like you're being very defensive about yourself because of what people are thinking about your coaching ability and team. Your grading everyone but yourself, which is not a smart thing to do. That's how you get your coaches against you, by trying to blame them instead of you taking blame. The evaluations of everyone is not a bad idea, you should do that but I would factor in dedication and effort into your players evalutions. And when evaluating the coaches incluse yourself and be the hardest on yourself.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 20, 2008 12:13:36 GMT -6
DCOhio Stated: "1 - coaching is not about the money. I don't care if he makes 50K to coach or he is a volunteer."
Anything worth doing at all is worth doing well and putting forth your best effort.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 20, 2008 12:19:35 GMT -6
I HATE, LOATH and DETEST the word "Hogs". What a crappy thing to say. Hey fat kids, I know you already don't get girlfriends, now were going to give you a title that is less than human and give them a title that associates them with a overwieght overeating fat animal. Yeah, and to take it one step further, call it "Hog-night" and stuff their faces till they can't walk and comment on how much they over eat in an unhealthy manner. Why not just have "wino-night" and invite all the drunks from around town over to your house and let them drink whiskey till they can't walk. Same thing.
Just a personal perspective.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2008 12:28:27 GMT -6
Why not just have "wino-night" and invite all the drunks from around town over to your house and let them drink whiskey till they can't walk. Same thing. The hillbillies who live across the street from me celebrate this occasion. I believe they call it "Friday Night". ;D
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 20, 2008 13:24:12 GMT -6
Well. I don't understand how the Oline can get an F and the Rb's a B. I have been coaching Oline for 10 years now and played in college been using the same basic techniques year after year of course adjusting things and always trying to improve. A running back has to know how to run a play. The oline isn't going to be opening holes big enough for a truck to run through. A good example of this is when you are running with your first team and you are getting yards your oline is good.. coach looking like Joe Bugel ( I'm pretty old). Put in the 3rd team slappy and all of a sudden your oline sucks and we start blaming the coach.
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Post by khalfie on Dec 20, 2008 13:58:29 GMT -6
I don't have much to add, but I can sympathize with your situation. I have one coach on staff at my school and 4 community coaches that I can barely afford to pay, and I need them. None of them, when they started, had the expertise to coach at the high school level, so I had to teach them what to do, and I had to do it without holding endless meetings because they all have other jobs and families and they all coach little league football as well. So, I spent 100's of hours making a book (itinerary, coaching guide, practice schedule) of easy to follow instructions of what to do at each position that was detailed to the nth degree and down to the minute for them to follow. Every step and every second was spelled out for them. Another thing I did to help teach them (and to get more individual work) was to hold split practices for the first week of spring and the first week of the fall. The first two hours of practice was just OL and DL . Now we have six OL and DL coaches, each with a specific plan, and I have the opportunity to model for them exactly how to do it. We get a lot of fundamental work done, the OL and DL get 6 times the coaching, and all of the coaches gain an understanding of OL and DL play. Then we have another 2 hour practice and do the same thing with the skill guys. We call it Iron Man coaching - 4 and a half hour practices, and our coaches take pride in the fact that we as coaches are working harder than any other coaches around. The receiver coach gets to work with linemen, the lineman coach gets to work with backs and receivers, and I get to work with every position and every coach. Doing it this way, I have found, brings us together as a staff and as a team. If the OL isn't getting it done, it's not the OL coach's fault, it's all our faults because we all coach the OL. Necessity is the mother of invention, and I stumbled onto something that was very beneficial for our team and our staff. I found a way to teach and correct coaches without bruising egos and running off coaches that I couldn't afford to lose. If we are having problems at a certain position, we go back to the fundamentals with a split practice and all of the staff focused on it. Once I felt comfortable that the coaches knew what to do, I let them take ownership by saying, "Today, focus on what you think they need the most." Now, my coaches know what to do, they are invested, they have ownership, they are happy, and I don't have to be an A-hole all the time. Maybe some of these ideas will help you. Outstanding post... Love the iron man coaching idea... consider it stolen! ;D
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Post by ajreaper on Dec 20, 2008 16:11:03 GMT -6
Hmhmhm if the O-line grades out at an "F" if it's not the coaches fault then who's fault is it?
Now if they started out terrible beyond description and improved to awful then thats a different story however you stated after 6 years he fails to deliver- in addition coach it's your fault for allowing it to go on for 6 years so there's plenty of blame to go around.
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Post by phantom on Dec 20, 2008 16:22:31 GMT -6
Hmhmhm if the O-line grades out at an "F" if it's not the coaches fault then who's fault is it? Now if they started out terrible beyond description and improved to awful then thats a different story however you stated after 6 years he fails to deliver- in addition coach it's your fault for allowing it to go on for 6 years so there's plenty of blame to go around. I agree. Why wasn't it discussed week to week? Isn't that why you have staff meeetings?
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