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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2008 14:24:16 GMT -6
Anyone run this thing, I was sent some clips of it, but cant really tell how it's run, it looks like the center never exchanges the ball with the QB, then takes off
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Post by airman on Sept 18, 2008 14:29:38 GMT -6
it is illegal at the high school level. I was banned two years ago.
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Post by airraider on Sept 18, 2008 18:32:12 GMT -6
it is illegal at the high school level. I was banned two years ago. well technically its not illegal.. the rule states that no player adjacent to the center make pick up a planned loose ball. So.. a guard cant pick it up.. but say.. a wingback can.. not as effective.. but still a way to do it.. Just like they tried to outlaw the hideout.. there are still ways to do it.. perfectly legal ways.. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2008 19:12:14 GMT -6
What's the hideout ? also is it illegal fr the center to put it on the ground then pick it up himself...I think it is another coach says it's not illegal to do so
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Post by levydisciple on Sept 18, 2008 19:13:54 GMT -6
Couldn't you have a pulling guard pick the ball up?
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Post by airraider on Sept 18, 2008 19:35:15 GMT -6
Couldn't you have a pulling guard pick the ball up? That is the way is used to be run.. we called it the guard around.. but now the rules stating that no player adjacent to the center.. makes that illegal.. The hideout is the old player lined up WAYYY close to the sideline but on the field.. and the ball is snapped and thrown to him.. They created the inside the numbers rule after the whistle to do away with this.. but we do it where it is still legal.
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Post by levydisciple on Sept 18, 2008 20:25:25 GMT -6
Sorry, meant tackle. I read the "adjacent to the center" thing but I accidently typed guard instead of tackle. My bad.
I mean, pulling a tackle is a little more unusual, and maybe you wouldn't wanna practice something you'll use maybe once- especially at the high school level, where time is of the essence (not as much time to practice, kids have others things to focus on, etc).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2008 4:17:45 GMT -6
Couldn't you have a pulling guard pick the ball up? That is the way is used to be run.. we called it the guard around.. but now the rules stating that no player adjacent to the center.. makes that illegal.. The hideout is the old player lined up WAYYY close to the sideline but on the field.. and the ball is snapped and thrown to him.. They created the inside the numbers rule after the whistle to do away with this.. but we do it where it is still legal. Hide out..got it, I used something lie that before, but with a flanker standing near our Sideline, facing inward if he was uncovered
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Post by John Knight on Sept 19, 2008 10:35:17 GMT -6
The Coaches Code of Ethics The function of a coach is to educate students through participation in interscholastic competition. An interscholastic program should be designed to enhance academic achievement and should never interfere with opportunities for academic success. Each student-athlete should be treated as though he or she were the coaches' own, and his or her welfare should be uppermost at all times. Accordingly, the following guidelines for coaches have been adopted by the NFCA Board of Directors.
The coach shall be aware that he or she has a tremendous influence, for either good or ill, on the education of the student-athlete and, thus, shall never place the value of winning above the value of instilling the highest ideals of character.
The coach shall uphold the honor and dignity of the profession. In all personal contact with student-athletes, officials, athletic directors, school administrators, the state high school athletic association, the media, and the public, the coach shall strive to set an example of the highest ethical and moral conduct.
The coach shall take an active role in the prevention of drug, alcohol and tobacco abuse.
The coach shall avoid the use of alcohol and tobacco products when in contact with players.
The coach shall promote the entire interscholastic program of the school and direct his or her program in harmony with the total school program.
The coach shall master the contest rules and shall teach them to his or her team members. The coach shall not seek an advantage by circumvention of the spirit or letter of the rules.
The coach shall exert his or her influence to enhance sportsmanship by spectators, both directly and by working closely with cheerleaders, pep club sponsors, booster clubs, and administrators.
The coach shall respect and support contest officials. The coach shall not indulge in conduct which would incite players or spectators against the officials. Public criticism of officials or players is unethical.
Before and after contests, coaches for the competing teams should meet and exchange cordial greetings to set the correct tone for the event.
A coach shall not exert pressure on faculty members to give student-athletes special consideration. A coach shall not scout opponents by any means other than those adopted by the league and/or state high school athletic association.
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Post by airraider on Sept 19, 2008 12:41:02 GMT -6
boo hoo
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Post by John Knight on Sept 19, 2008 12:51:01 GMT -6
That is mature!
Bush League BS plays belong in pop warner not high school.
I guess you run wrong ball and where's the tee and possum too!
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Post by airraider on Sept 19, 2008 13:05:29 GMT -6
how did you guess?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2008 14:21:31 GMT -6
WTF is that all about
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2008 14:23:01 GMT -6
That is mature! Bush League BS plays belong in pop warner not high school. I guess you run wrong ball and where's the tee and possum too! Who the hell says I run them, I was only asking about them
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Post by John Knight on Sept 20, 2008 6:01:10 GMT -6
Those plays are all plays that try to circumvent the rules and should be shut down by the officials and USC called on the coach. It is unsportsmanlike to run plays designed to cheat.
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Post by casec11 on Sept 20, 2008 9:31:55 GMT -6
That is mature! Bush League BS plays belong in pop warner not high school. I guess you run wrong ball and where's the tee and possum too! What's possum? BTW- Wrong ball and wheres the TEE deserve USC, but a play where the ball is lost due to movement by the offense during the acual play, is misdirection.
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Post by John Knight on Sept 20, 2008 9:33:54 GMT -6
Possum is Shift snapdown on 4th down and less than 5 to draw the defense offsides. It is illegal and bushleague as well. Sad part is some officials call encroachment when it should be ion the offense.
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Post by airraider on Sept 20, 2008 12:24:19 GMT -6
Possum is Shift snapdown on 4th down and less than 5 to draw the defense offsides. It is illegal and bushleague as well. Sad part is some officials call encroachment when it should be ion the offense. Sounds to me that you have lost a game or two because of these types of plays.
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Post by airman on Sept 20, 2008 13:35:39 GMT -6
heck I wish the rule was the same. I caught people off guard with the fumbleruski. it was a nice two point play. we called it left or right guard special.
I personally like exotic plays. double passes, throwback passes, hook and latteral, statue plays and putting the qb in motion or walking to the side lines and a direct snap to the back or fake neal down by the qb at the end of the half.
my fav play is line up in double slots and fake punt. the punter throws the ball in the direction of a gunner who is gettng mauled by the dbs. Automatic pass int. 15 yds and first down for us.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2008 14:08:22 GMT -6
heck I wish the rule was the same. I caught people off guard with the fumbleruski. it was a nice two point play. we called it left or right guard special. I personally like exotic plays. double passes, throwback passes, hook and latteral, statue plays and putting the qb in motion or walking to the side lines and a direct snap to the back or fake neal down by the qb at the end of the half. my fav play is line up in double slots and fake punt. the punter throws the ball in the direction of a gunner who is gettng mauled by the dbs. Automatic pass int. 15 yds and first down for us. The punt play is genius....I just added it to my little black book, I may even use it tommorrow and uh John....lighten up a little huh ?
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Post by coachorr on Sept 20, 2008 18:42:21 GMT -6
John, you need to send this post to Coach Bryant. He needs to read this, because he is really in jeopardy of teaching kids how to circumvent the rules.
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Post by levydisciple on Sept 20, 2008 23:41:47 GMT -6
I normally don't like trick plays- I don't believe they're fundamental, and the time needed to install even one of these, when you're probably only going to run it a couple of times a year, is not worth it IMO. However, I do like that fake punt idea, coachkell. Where'd you get the idea from?
And I really don't like when people say something is against the spirit of the games. Because there's a rulebook, and if it's allowed, it's allowed. I don't know of any "spirit of the game" book that I can check to see if a play or idea is ethical. If you took the time to think up a really good idea, install it, know when to use it (i.e. fool me- because that's what coaches are really complaining about when they call plays "unethical" IMO) and then execute it correctly in a game situation- all I can say is kudos to you, great job.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 21, 2008 0:48:27 GMT -6
And I really don't like when people say something is against the spirit of the games. Because there's a rulebook, and if it's allowed, it's allowed. I don't know of any "spirit of the game" book that I can check to see if a play or idea is ethical. If you took the time to think up a really good idea, install it, know when to use it (i.e. fool me- because that's what coaches are really complaining about when they call plays "unethical" IMO) and then execute it correctly in a game situation- all I can say is kudos to you, great job. I am going to have to disagree here..I think there are various situations, (especially dealing with youth ball but even at higher levels), where there is such a concept as "spirit of the game". The obvious one on the front burner right now is the "super innovative" A-11. But several other situations come to mind. I have witnessed several instances where attendance boundaries are manipulated "by the book" that are in stark contrast with the "spirit' of the rules, which is your team should be comprised of the kids that would ordinarily go to your school...In other sports I have seen rules followed exactly, but were not in accordance with the spirit of the game (having your weaker hitters stand on home plate so that they will get out in a timely manner--allowing the top of your line up to bat within the time limits, dribbling out the last 27 seconds of a 1 point basketball game because the league rules at the time did not allow for any defensive pressure past half court at that age group...)
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Post by levydisciple on Sept 21, 2008 1:16:05 GMT -6
Okay, I agree there should be a "spirit of the game" at the youth level, simply to instill sportmanship and other values. But after that, I think it's free game. Wasn't it Bill Gates who said, "The real world keeps track of the score?" I think it was Bill Gates, and I'm going by memory here with the exact phrasing of the quote. *shrugs* Either way, I think the spirit of the game is what you make of it- nothing more, nothing less. And not what anyone else makes of it, either. If I find a way to win, I'm using it. If you think of the same idea but don't use it, that's your decision but I (respectfully) think you're hurting yourself. But don't yell at me for making a decision to use something "unethical" that helps the team win, when helping the team win is my job (and I'm not saying that to anyone specifically, I'm being very general. Just tryin' to keep it civil and respectfully state my views, that's all).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2008 5:40:46 GMT -6
Coach I agee, I hink that it's your job as a coach to find ways to win, within the framework of the rules. I'm not saying I use any of the above, I did did use the "hideout" before.
The reason I asked the question is because one of the other coaches, want's to use it, I told him it's illegal.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Sept 21, 2008 7:24:02 GMT -6
my fav play is line up in double slots and fake punt. the punter throws the ball in the direction of a gunner who is gettng mauled by the dbs. Automatic pass int. 15 yds and first down for us. Airman, just so you know, if you are in college, Texas, or Mass. and the ball is thrown to simulate a punt, there is no DPI on that play. Not sure about the federation rules.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 21, 2008 8:18:21 GMT -6
Okay, I agree there should be a "spirit of the game" at the youth level, simply to instill sportmanship and other values. But after that, I think it's free game. Wasn't it Bill Gates who said, "The real world keeps track of the score?" I think it was Bill Gates, and I'm going by memory here with the exact phrasing of the quote. *shrugs* Either way, I think the spirit of the game is what you make of it- nothing more, nothing less. And not what anyone else makes of it, either. If I find a way to win, I'm using it. If you think of the same idea but don't use it, that's your decision but I (respectfully) think you're hurting yourself. But don't yell at me for making a decision to use something "unethical" that helps the team win, when helping the team win is my job (and I'm not saying that to anyone specifically, I'm being very general. Just tryin' to keep it civil and respectfully state my views, that's all). Since you brought it up, don't forget that the Department of Justice won its consolidated anti-trust lawsuit against Microsoft....the businesworld version of "not being in the spirit of the rules" And there certainly is a "spirit of the rules" in all games with rules. Again, the A-11 jumps to the forefront. The intent and spirit of the loophole they exploit are CLEARLY to aid football teams in staffing special teams. Attendance boundary rules are often circumvented, which violate the "spirit" of the rules. I would argue that the simulated punt pass that timtheenchanter mentions is another example.
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Post by los on Sept 21, 2008 10:07:51 GMT -6
A team/coach we played in "youth ball" many years ago, used the hideout play, for a couple seasons......they ran it at least once in every game and actually became very sophisticated in the deception.......to set it up, they would run a play into the boundary, to our sidelines.....with their WB to the field.......no huddle and come quickly to the los......sometime during the previous play, their WB would either fake an injury or just get lost in the crowd and end up waaaay over on their sideline, just in the field of play(actually with their coach's as a background behind him to camoflauge him from our CB on that side).....they'd snap the ball quickly, after the no huddle and chunk it out there to him....uncovered.......they never actually scored on us with it, but did get some nice field position after a long run to help them win a game against us once......while I had trained my kid corners to check their sidelines to make sure any offensive player heading to the sidelines, did in fact, leave the field of play......this play was a little too much for an 11-12 yr. old, to be expected to notice......while it was apparently legal at the time( no flags with real officials doing the games).....and we never cried about it.......I did think it was kind of going against the spirit of the game? Course.... this team/coach had a history of stretching or violating our "age", "ball carrier weight limits" and "no blitz from depth" rules as well, so this was par for the course......and more a reflection of this guys "win at any cost" character!
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Post by John Knight on Sept 21, 2008 17:22:13 GMT -6
The NFHS has added language recently to discourage plays that use deception by actions or verbal cues that would lead the defense to believe the snap is not going to happen. The substitution rules have been added to prevent this kind of crap as well. The A-11 will be deemed illegal except on 4th down or true kicking situations like it is in NCAA now. I love trick plays and deception like reverse or halfback pass and they are exciting and fun to watch. Plays that are designed to get penalties called or take advantage of kids are not ethical. I do not need to lighten up we all need to be good coaches and not try to circumvent the rules(cheat)!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2008 17:48:49 GMT -6
Coach then you need to go back and READ the posts, I never said that anyone was going to run it, I simply asked about it, it was discussion, I had with another coach, REMEMBER, I WAS THE ONE THAT SAID I THOUGHT IT WAS ILLEGAL. NO coach knows all the rules, and to accuse anyone of being a "cheat" that simply wasn't aware of the rule, a rule that can vary from state to state no less, is ignorant as hell.
SO using your analysis, any NFL team that tries to draw an interference penalty by throwing to an obviously covered receiver is cheating??? bullsh!t
No one here needs to be reminded how to be a good coach
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