|
Post by scoresalot on Jul 10, 2008 11:51:10 GMT -6
Just because it's not high school doesn't make it illegitimate. Someone said that it is not true that club sports don't help you get scholarships. That is true in some sports. In sports like baseball, many scholarships come from nonschool teams. I have coached both Varsity baseball for high school and select high school aged teams, and I have talked to far more scouts about my select players than my high school players. Not because of lack of effort, but the scouts are at summer games far more than high school, because they are playing too. Pro scouts are at both. I agree with justryn2. Why is he missing? He should be there on off days, but the kid should not be punished for being a multi-sport athlete. If he is making an effort, then coach should be flexible. If not, then there is a decision to make. By the way, I am also a varsity football coach. So, I understand the importance of the weight room and dedication. I was also a two sport athlete in college and three in high school. I believe playing all made me better in all more than just being in the weight room ever would have. No offense coach, but did actually read what was written. It answers the question you (and other coaches ) asked. He clearly stated that the young man was missing practices to keep himself "fresh" for tournaments, or because he was "exhausted" from others. Even if the two occasions mentioned were the only two, that is already two too many. Also coach, please spare us the "baseball" scholarship. It does not exist. You know it, I know it..the football coaching community knows it. I do agree with you, that not being affiliated with school is NOT grounds for being illegitimate. Yes, I did see the comments he made, and you are right that those are unacceptable reasons to be missing. However, it sounds to me that he is getting those comments from his handlers, and maybe the coach needs to have that meeting with all involved and state that he understands there are some conflicts, but the kid needs to be there where there isn't. I will grant you that there are very few baseball scholarships out there, but the ones that I have seen, have come because of summer baseball as much if not more than school baseball. In my neck of the woods, we do get a few every year. Granted they are partials, but they wouldn't have gotten them without playing high quality summer ball.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 12:29:58 GMT -6
This is why I came to this board with this scenario, I wanted the opinions of people who are in the same situation as I am. Let me give you more insight on the situation. The previous coach only let him return kicks and punts as well as be the 4th receiver due to his basketball commitments in the summer. The kid was a all state return man with 10 tds. That shows the type of electric ability that this kid has. I spoke with the kids parents today and informed them that he is no longer on the team due to his inability to come to practice when he was in town. I explained to them that I gave him a extra week off before the state mandated 2 week dead period. I then explained that not only am I sending the wrong message to the less talented members of the team but I am allowing him to cheat himself. They responded by saying that they understand. They then asked could he return at the end of the month when his basketball commitments are up and work his way up the depth chart and even be suspended a few games if necessary. They gave a sad story about him playing football since the age of 7 and the stress he is under trying to not let anyone down on either coaching side. They explained that he is in another state until Monday night and we all should meet on Tuesday when he returns. Here is my train of thought: he is too good of a athlete to be on the bench ,there is no way that I would have him dressed in uniform and not play him. I honestly love winning more than proving a point. Therefore I am considering not letting him on the team at all. That way I am not in that position. I hate to cut off my face to spite my nose. I am considering telling them that he can return provided that he does not go on the 2 week Orlando trip. Remember that we are in the state allowed 15 day pre-practice area. That means that this period of time is not just lifting and running. After sharing this info please continue to share your comments and as always thanks in advance. Coach--since you upped the info level...I figured I would chime in again with some unneeded advice First--what is the competitive level of your opponents? I ask that because, here in Louisiana, if a kid had 10 TD's returning kicks in 5A (top class), and they were spread out throughout the season (not just against 2 or 3 weak sisters) He would be a LOCK for a D1 scholarship, probably BCS caliber. I think when you have your meeting with the parents/kid, it is important to just lay it ALL out on the table, have him make a choice, design a course of action for that choice...and then hold him accountable to that course of action. Many factors to consider. I would put them all on the table 1--Is he clearinghouse eligible. Will he be clearinghouse eligible. 2--What does he REALLY want to do with the next few years? Then present him various choices: A) National Power football scholarship vs National Power Basketball scholarship-- Are these in the realm? Probably not, since National Power teams have already offered for this season, and many have already offered Juniors already from spring recruiting. But still... B) National Power Football vs Major College Basketball c) national Power football vs Lesser Known Basketball d) BCS college football vs National Power Basketball e) Lesser Knonw Football vs National Power Basketball f) Lesser Known Football vs Lesser Known Basketball.. etc. Put all of that out on the table. Ask him right now...who is recruiting you (Ask the H.S. basketball guy too). Don't be afraid to call those schools, and tell them the situation. --"I have a kid, he thinks he is being recruited by you guys..I just want to make sure before we make decisions on football/basketball issues." Show the parents that ultimately THEY need to be their child's advocate..not the AAU coach. Ask what kind of experience the AAU guy has? RENT HOOP DREAMS.... and tell them to watch it. (Seriously) Show them the math..if a "scholarship" is all they are looking for. Basketball programs give 2 or 3 a year. Football gives 20-25. Really sit down and evaluate his status in both sports if the "scholarship" is the concern. Look at USC..they offered a freaking Middle Schooler...That is the current culture of college ball.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on Jul 10, 2008 12:42:06 GMT -6
A basketball player here who went on to be first and second team All SEC lived with his father in Texas for the ninth grade and played football as an option QB.
Got a call from a team there, major program. In the ninth grade.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 10, 2008 17:19:54 GMT -6
19delta - we have those same rules, summer stuff is not mandatory and we don't make it mandatory. However...everyday you miss, someone else will be here working hard to take your spot...I am also here everyday.... and if you've read "The 5 dysfunctions of a team" the very first thing a team needs to have it trust. and since I make the starting lineup up, I'm going to trust who is here. I don't have any problems with that...however, I believe that there have been several posts in this thread saying that the coach should draft a letter to the kid saying that he can't play because he hasn't shown up in the summer. That's all I'm taking issue with...not saying that the kid should start or get playing time, just saying that I really don't think that legally, the kid can be prevented from joining the team.
|
|
|
Post by jtdunbar on Jul 11, 2008 6:12:13 GMT -6
Amen to that. Most kids that use "REC LEAGUES" as an excuse to not lift will let your team down on game night. Great post D.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jul 11, 2008 12:08:45 GMT -6
dc--the LETTER was simply documentation.... to keep administration from doing that spineless thing they do when they support you to your face, and cower to others when confronted. Just formally documenting that THE HC, THE AD, AND THE PRINCIPAL all agree. I have seen that happen way to many times. An agreed on policy or course of action becomes mush once someone applies pressure on others.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 11, 2008 13:13:45 GMT -6
dc--the LETTER was simply documentation.... to keep administration from doing that spineless thing they do when they support you to your face, and cower to others when confronted. Just formally documenting that THE HC, THE AD, AND THE PRINCIPAL all agree. I have seen that happen way to many times. An agreed on policy or course of action becomes mush once someone applies pressure on others. Yes. Documentation is VERY important. The programs I have been associated with that were successful...there was always accurate and public record keeping in relation to offseason participation. Now, we NEVER denied a kid the opportunity to be on the team, HOWEVER, it was always obvious which kids were around in the summer and which kids were not. We always had summer attendance tied in to t-shirts or helmet stickers that made it very obvious who participated in the summer and who did not. When you looked on the sideline and saw a kid with a plain helmet with nothing on it, you just knew what that meant..that kid had not done anything over the summer. As far as holding back playing time from the kids who didn't show up...well, we really didn't do that. Once practice started in August, the best kids played at each position provided that kid clearly outplayed everyone else at that position and didn't break any team rules. And, let's face it...that's the way the "real world" works...life is not always fair...sometimes, no matter how hard you work, someone is always going to be better than you. With that being said, we ALWAYS gave the kids who had the best participation the opportunity to win a starting position or playing time. Most of the time, those kids were able to get the job done because they had put the work in necessary to perform at the level required. In almost 10 years of coaching, I can count on one hand the number of kids who were simply so physicaly superior that they could simply show up and be heads and shoulders better than everyone else. It just hasn't been that much of an issue. But, when it has happened, those kids will eventually find their way to the field. They won't have all of their helmet stickers (or whatever), but I feel that as a football coach, you have a responsibility to the administration, to the community, to the other kids on the team and to your coaches, to put the best athletes on the field. Like I said earlier, it takes all kinds of kids to make up a football team. You are always going to have kids who don't fit the "Rudy" template...the highly coachable and hardworking kid who will run through a brick wall for his team. When you have those "non-Rudys", it doesn't make you a bad coach for playing them. I understand about the "hidden curriculum"...I understand about teaching kids "life lessons"...with that being said, there can be a balance between teaching those things and fielding a competitive football team. As long as the kid follows the rules that everyone else does once the season starts, I think you are doing yourself and everyone else who is invested in the football program a disservice by "blackballing" these kids. Now, if the kid exhibits a bad attitude, refuses to do certain things, shows up late or doesn't show up at all, at that point, I think that you have to take some action. Heck, I would go as far to say that if the kid continues to play AAU ball during the football season, he shouldn't get to play. I think that it is reasonable for the football coaches to expect that their players are focused on the current sport, not the next sport. But again, I'm not going to blackball a kid because he missed summer activities. Once the season starts, the kid has a clean slate, as far as I am concerned.
|
|
|
Post by gilcd754 on Jul 12, 2008 0:50:57 GMT -6
I know this may be blasphemous to many of you but I say work with him on his schedule as long as you'd do that for all your players. If the kid's playin' basketball all month he's conditioning at some level. Does he miss when in town? Is he avoiding the workouts or exploiting his talents in another area? I think the idea of specialization and total dedication to weights and conditioning is way over blown. My kids know that if they're missing workouts/practices because they're sleeping in, sitting on the couch or out at the lake, I'll take their pads out of their lockers and they can play Madden on their Xbox instead. If they're missing because of basketball commitments, camps for other sports, even a family vacation I don't get too excited about it. They know that when they miss others are preparing for their spot and no one gets favored.
I guess my thought is if the kid who missed 3 weeks from AAU comes in and can perform better than the kid who was there every day his conditioning, preparation etc. is already better so who cares if he had 100% attendance in the summer. As long as the TEAM functions better with one over the other it is a non issue in my mind. Again I make a big distinction between those who choose to not come from laziness and lack of commitment and those who are pursuing other valid endeavors which call him away from some time with the team.
|
|
|
Post by jsucoach79 on Jul 12, 2008 6:54:43 GMT -6
This is why I came to this board with this scenario, I wanted the opinions of people who are in the same situation as I am. Let me give you more insight on the situation. The previous coach only let him return kicks and punts as well as be the 4th receiver due to his basketball commitments in the summer. The kid was a all state return man with 10 tds. That shows the type of electric ability that this kid has. I spoke with the kids parents today and informed them that he is no longer on the team due to his inability to come to practice when he was in town. I explained to them that I gave him a extra week off before the state mandated 2 week dead period. I then explained that not only am I sending the wrong message to the less talented members of the team but I am allowing him to cheat himself. They responded by saying that they understand. They then asked could he return at the end of the month when his basketball commitments are up and work his way up the depth chart and even be suspended a few games if necessary. They gave a sad story about him playing football since the age of 7 and the stress he is under trying to not let anyone down on either coaching side. They explained that he is in another state until Monday night and we all should meet on Tuesday when he returns. Here is my train of thought: he is too good of a athlete to be on the bench ,there is no way that I would have him dressed in uniform and not play him. I honestly love winning more than proving a point. Therefore I am considering not letting him on the team at all. That way I am not in that position. I hate to cut off my face to spite my nose. I am considering telling them that he can return provided that he does not go on the 2 week Orlando trip. Remember that we are in the state allowed 15 day pre-practice area. That means that this period of time is not just lifting and running. After sharing this info please continue to share your comments and as always thanks in advance. Coach--since you upped the info level...I figured I would chime in again with some unneeded advice First--what is the competitive level of your opponents? I ask that because, here in Louisiana, if a kid had 10 TD's returning kicks in 5A (top class), and they were spread out throughout the season (not just against 2 or 3 weak sisters) He would be a LOCK for a D1 scholarship, probably BCS caliber. 5A Football It's called the SEC of ur state. He scored 8 tds on kicks,1 on a screen,and 1 on a reverse.
I think when you have your meeting with the parents/kid, it is important to just lay it ALL out on the table, have him make a choice, design a course of action for that choice...and then hold him accountable to that course of action. Many factors to consider. I would put them all on the table 1--Is he clearinghouse eligible. Will he be clearinghouse eligible. Will be a junior next season bit has already scored a decent ACT 2--What does he REALLY want to do with the next few years? Then present him various choices: He has already stated that he knows his best chance to get a scholarship is in football.
A) National Power football scholarship vs National Power Basketball scholarship-- Are these in the realm? Probably not, since National Power teams have already offered for this season, and many have already offered Juniors already from spring recruiting. But still... B) National Power Football vs Major College Basketball c) national Power football vs Lesser Known Basketball d) BCS college football vs National Power Basketball e) Lesser Knonw Football vs National Power Basketball f) Lesser Known Football vs Lesser Known Basketball.. etc. Put all of that out on the table. Ask him right now...who is recruiting you (Ask the H.S. basketball guy too). Don't be afraid to call those schools, and tell them the situation. --"I have a kid, he thinks he is being recruited by you guys..I just want to make sure before we make decisions on football/basketball issues." Show the parents that ultimately THEY need to be their child's advocate..not the AAU coach. Ask what kind of experience the AAU guy has? RENT HOOP DREAMS.... and tell them to watch it. (Seriously) Show them the math..if a "scholarship" is all they are looking for. Basketball programs give 2 or 3 a year. Football gives 20-25. Really sit down and evaluate his status in both sports if the "scholarship" is the concern. Look at USC..they offered a freaking Middle Schooler...That is the current culture of college ball.
|
|
|
Post by jsucoach79 on Jul 12, 2008 7:09:03 GMT -6
Here is where I am as we speak on the situation. Everyone involved in the situation spoke about this before the start of the summer. An agreement was made that he would be at practice as much as possible when he was in town. He would go the previously mentioned tournament at the end of the summer for 2 weeks. Since he did not live up to his end of the agreement I told him that I assumed that he quit football. He then went on to explain how important football was to him and that he thought the agreement really meant that he was there when official practice began in August but came to conditioning when he could. He should return to town Tuesday and we are having my last and final meeting on the subject. I am leaning on telling him that he has already missed 5 official summer practices therefore he will make that conditioning up for 7 days after practice before he his allowed to run with the first group. If he decides to go to the 2 week tournament that is 10 more days that he must make up ( 17) total. I think this works both ways first of all he will be earning his way back, secondly he will be showing his team mates that he wants to be here. If he quits or decides not to do the extra conditioning he has decided not to play and the situation has worked its self out. Please critique.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 12, 2008 19:41:28 GMT -6
Kid skips everything all summer long, his team qualifies and gets a spot in the August tournament...he goes and plays in it, then shows up to football 2 weeks late...BECAUSE...he was playing Basketball/Baseball. Is that OK? No. That's because once the season starts (at least in my state), kids have to have 14 days of practice (Fridays and Sundays don't count) before they can play in a game. So, a kid shows up two weeks late, he is not even eligible probably until Week 5 at the earliest (haven't done the math, but that is probably about right). At that point, what good is he going to be? Also, most teams I have been associated with have had some kid of standing rule with a cut-off date after which kids can't join the team. First place I was at, the cut-off date was the first day of school, for example.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 13, 2008 7:17:21 GMT -6
No. That's because once the season starts (at least in my state), kids have to have 14 days of practice (Fridays and Sundays don't count) before they can play in a game. So, a kid shows up two weeks late, he is not even eligible probably until Week 5 at the earliest (haven't done the math, but that is probably about right). At that point, what good is he going to be? Also, most teams I have been associated with have had some kid of standing rule with a cut-off date after which kids can't join the team. First place I was at, the cut-off date was the first day of school, for example. and I agree, but the tournaments held at those times are what they are playing for in the summer time, those are the national championship tournaments for those respective associations...AAU, USSSA, etc. My point is, you have not been on them about coming to football all summer now they have reached what they worked for all summer, how can you possibly force them to choose or apply pressure to them now? Pretty hypocritical if you ask me. Of course we have been "on them" all summer...again, we take attendance and there are various incentives for kids who choose to participate. With that being said, as a general rule, I am not going to drive over to a kid's house every day we have a training function and make that kid go (even though I have done that with some kids in the past). The kids know where we are and when we train. Here's the REAL question...if the football program has PROCEDURES in place before the summer that addresses these issues, then there shouldn't be any controversy. Every successful program I have been a part of, there is a meeting with kids and parents prior to the summer in which expectations are CLEARLY spelled out...there is NO questions about what is and isn't acceptable. Kids will know when training activities are and if they have any conflicts, they are required to tell us when these conflicts are. My opinion has always been that if I know where a kid is at least 24 hours before he is gone and when he will be back, that is acceptable. Also, kids know when the first day of football is. So, if I had a kid who was going to miss the first two weeks of the football season because of an AAU tournament, that kid would have to understand that he wouldn't be eligible to play until halfway into the season. To be perfectly honest, if I had a kid like that on my team, I would probably encourage him to concentrate on basketball and not to even come out for the football team. Also, there is that cut-off date. If you tell kids in the beginning of the summer that you can't join the team after a specific date (which is OK to do), then I don't see the problem here. If you tell kids that you can't join the team after August 17th or whatever but Johnny Basketball won't be back in town until August 24th, then I think that it takes care of itself. At that point, Johnny basketball has a decision to make. He either gets back to town by August 17th OR he doesn't play football this year. Again, it's all about procedures and expectations. If you clearly outline those procedures and expectations during your winter or spring meetings with the kids, then there won't be any surprises at the end of the summer. And it sounds like that is what this particular coach did...he sat down with the kid and his parents and spelled out what the expectations were and this kid CHOSE to not meet those obligations. And know the kid wants to renegotiate the the contract...IMO, that is not the way it works. The thing is, I am willing to work with kids during the summer. If there are kids who, for whatever reason, are going to have conflicts, we can work something out. With that being said, the kid had better hold up his end of the bargain. If he doesn't, he is going to have a major uphill climb once the season begins. I think that it is irresponsible and dangerous to treat "every kid the same" because each kid is different. Treating the kids FAIRLY is not the same thing as treating kids the same.
|
|
|
Post by schultbear74 on Jul 13, 2008 7:45:32 GMT -6
Summer is about over. Had a kid who weighs in at 240 as a soph has been "working out" with baseball and can't bench 170. I can't wait to see him try to squat. He got hurt last year as a Frosh and I have feeling he will get hurt this year as well. He could be a player, but he spends most of his time trying to be a pitcher. I won't punish him- he's gonna punish himself.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jul 13, 2008 8:12:42 GMT -6
Summer is about over. Had a kid who weighs in at 240 as a soph has been "working out" with baseball and can't bench 170. I can't wait to see him try to squat. He got hurt last year as a Frosh and I have feeling he will get hurt this year as well. He could be a player, but he spends most of his time trying to be a pitcher. I won't punish him- he's gonna punish himself. That's a great point... Had a kid a couple of years ago who really could have been a nice offensive lineman. Had him penciled in as a starter. This kid's parents were divorced and his mother lived in Florida (we are in the midwest). The custody arrangement the parents had said that the kid would live with his dad during the school year but then go to Florida to spend the summer with his mom. So, what we did with this kid was test all of his maxes in May before school got out and then told him that we wanted to see a 10% inprovement on all of his lifts by the time practice started. We felt that it was reasonable for the kid to get a gym membership down in Florida, especially considering that he wasn't going to be working. Anyway, pre-season practice starts and he rolls into camp. He had put on about 10 pounds worth of pizza and beer and it was obvious that he hadn't lifted during the summer when he couldn't even match the numbers he had put up before he left in May. The thing is, I really didn't even have to say anything to him...once we got out on the field, it sorted itself out. This kid was slow, weak, and out-of-shape and there was 2-3 kids who were just performing BETTER than he was, so he didn't get to play. And our butts were covered because we had an agreement in place with this kid and his parents before the summer began. It was on him to fulfill his end of the deal and he didn't do do that. Kid didn't have a leg to stand on. We had some injuries midseason and the guy did play some because of that, but his senior season was largely a disappointment.
|
|