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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 8, 2008 22:46:00 GMT -6
Tog, going to have to disagree with you here, at least on your apparent interpretations of what is going on. not if you get your teeth kicked in because the other schools have their athletes out for football. get the kids there That seems to be the trouble. The kid in question does not want to go to work outs because it might "wear him out" for basketball later in the week. How do you hold someone accountable if the issue is showing up? Well, right now it sounds as if the player is the one making the ultimatums. The kid you have slated as your starting QB is telling you that he isn't going to be coming to workouts because he needs to "save up" for the AAU basketball tournament later in the week. How would you handle it?
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Post by jjkuenzel on Jul 9, 2008 1:28:18 GMT -6
I'm with Tog here. Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
I think the real issue here is creating overall discipline within the program. Now there are a million and one ways to do that. Making an ultimatum with this kid may be the answer in this instance, but I am not so sure. Only you can decide that.
One thing that I hate seeing is when a kid gets penalized for being a multi sport athlete. Yes football is important, but it may not be the absolute #1 most important thing for him. And that is ok for a high school kid to not have football be his #1 sport. As KW said, it isn't as if the kid is on scholarship and you own him. He is a high school kid who is a great athlete and wants to play both basketball AND football.
When fall camp opens, the AAU circuit will be over. For the next 4 months, the most important 4 months as well I might add, he will be all yours. He will be there everyday I assume and he will be a difference maker for you. It is not my decision to make, but I would have a hard time turning away a thoroughbred when his greatest crime is playing AAU basketball.
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Post by dacoachmo on Jul 9, 2008 5:08:04 GMT -6
The biggest red flag for the player is not showing up when he could be there...I agree with the meeting with AD/Principal to make sure everyone is on the same page. Work with the player, so i the future, when you have a players "on the fence", you just may win him over to "our side" and forget the other sport. Remember, we are recruiting for the most difficult sport AND rewarding sport know to mankind.
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Post by robinhood on Jul 9, 2008 5:45:40 GMT -6
John:
As long as he is there the first day of practice and is at every practice, I don't think you'll have a problem. Don't go looking for trouble.
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Post by scoresalot on Jul 9, 2008 6:01:48 GMT -6
I might be in the minority here, but I don't think you kick him off. As someone said earlier, this is high school football, not college or pro. I encourage all my players to play more than one sport because it helps their overall athletic ability. I also keeps them competing, and competition for a great athlete is as important as the weight room. I do agree that he needs to make the attempt to be there when he can, and if he isn't, then like Tog said, he needs to make up those days before he steps on the field. Weights are important, but he isn't being paid to make this his only commitment. What would you say if it were a church camp he was going to? Many of you might have a different view. He needs to commit, but I think we as coaches need to remember that if high school football is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in these kids' lives, then we might be teaching them the wrong thing.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 9, 2008 6:06:15 GMT -6
John: As long as he is there the first day of practice and is at every practice, I don't think you'll have a problem. Don't go looking for trouble. Bingo. I completely agree with this. What is the "criteria" set for off-season participation for the other kids? Every program I have ever been associated with, there have been kids who didn't do a thing in the summer and then just showed up for the first day of practice. There have also been kids were in a basketball league, a baseball league, and worked a full-time job during the summer. Some of those kids were good players and some were not very good. Now, I wouldn't play this kid at QB...doesn't really sound like the kind of kid who is going to give you the committment you are going to need at that position, especially if you guys are going to the spread after running the I a year ago. The thing is, letting the kid play DOES NOT mean that you are letting him "win" or "get his way". To field a football team, you need ALL KINDS OF KIDS...not every kid is going to be "Rudy"...if that was the case, coaching would be easy! Now, I would set some guidelines for the regular season. Once the season starts, if he misses a practice he needs to sit for a quarter or whatever the "penalty" is for missing practice and when and/or if he misses "x" amount of practices (again, whatever that number is), he is kicked off the team. The biggest issue I have here, which has been alluded to, but not to a great degree in this thread, is that it appears as if there are some improprieties going on...maybe even violations that could result in sanctions against this kid or the school. I think that you have a responsibility as a coach to bring your suspicions to the administration's attention (if you already haven't done so). Sounds like you have a kid who is getting bad advice from some sleazy people. Beyond that, I don't see a problem here...sure, we would like ALL of our kids to attend each summer practice. It's just not always going to happen. There are always going to be kids, for one reason or another, who aren't going to participate. Summer participation, or the lack of, should NOT be a prerequisite for being a member of the football team. Let the kid come out the first day of practice and see what he can do. As long as he meets the standards set for the other players during the season, this should be a non-issue.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 9, 2008 6:12:39 GMT -6
What would you say if it were a church camp he was going to? Many of you might have a different view. He needs to commit, but I think we as coaches need to remember that if high school football is the MOST IMPORTANT thing in these kids' lives, then we might be teaching them the wrong thing. Great point! I knew a kid who wasn't able to do anything in the summer because he went down to some dirt-poor town in Kentucky and built house for homeless people. Should that kid not be able to be on the team? I know another kid who wasn't able to be around because he spent the summer with his mom in another state because his parents were divorced. What is legit and what is illegit, in terms of kids not being around in the summer? Should it be the coach's role to decide which excuses are acceptable and which excuses are unacceptable? That could turn into a very slippery slope, IMO.
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Post by chadp56 on Jul 9, 2008 6:13:57 GMT -6
I'm not familiar with your summer rules. Here we can't make anything mandatory in the summer. Sure, showing up or not showing up might have an effect on your chances to start or get signifigant playing time during the season, but it cannot prevent you from being on the team at all. I'm telling you this because I would never tell a kid he is off the team for not showing up to some summer stuff. We are also a small school so we encourage multi-sport participation, so we know some kids will be gone from time to time. When the regular season starts, we have a written policy that is signed by the player and the parents. We treat every kid the same regardless of how important they are to the team. If this can be mandatory for you, I'd encourage you to develop a written policy and make everyone aware of it. Assuming this isnt mandatory, and/or the expectations aren't written somewhere, I'd think you would keep him on the team. I might reconsider the position he plays if he is missing when he doesn't need to, but I wouldn't boot him unless it was during mandatory time. I'd also be careful not to treat him different than you treat other people. The same rules should apply for everyone.
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Post by schultbear74 on Jul 9, 2008 6:24:32 GMT -6
A small school may be different. A large school has some lee-way.
What about the price of gas. Kid lives out on the fringe and can't get in?
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Post by jtdunbar on Jul 9, 2008 6:37:25 GMT -6
Sorry but I disagree with just showing up on the first day of practice. You are sending the wrong message to the rest of the kids. If playing recreational baseball or basketball is getting in the way of the 1hr and 30 min 4 days a week that I am asking to get out of you then how can I count on you when things get tough on Friday night. These guys are generally great front runners. As long as you are winning everything is great. Lose a few games and watch them quit on you and run on over to the basketball court. Keep in mind that you must work with all of the kids in the summer by giving them more then one option as to what times they will get these workouts in. Believe me those problems that I had lasted one summer. Some of those same "basketball players" were back again the next summer. Never had another problem with it. They will do what you allow them to do. Work with them as for as offering more then one time slot to get their work in and if that is not good enough then let them fufill there basketball dreams.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 9, 2008 7:15:32 GMT -6
Sorry but I disagree with just showing up on the first day of practice. So, if a kid just shows up to the first day of practice, you aren't going to let him play? I don't know about where you coach, but where I am at, it doesn't work that way. A coach can't tell kids that they will not be allowed to come out for the team. What if a kid moves into your district a week before practice starts and he wants to play? Is he just out of luck?
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Post by phantom on Jul 9, 2008 7:39:31 GMT -6
Is there a compromise that could be worked out? Have you talked to the folks? Does he have to be at every AAU tourney? The worst that can happen is that nothing can be done and your in the same spot (that is as long as you don't push too hard. You don't want the kid to flake out altogether). The school basketball coach feels the same way about the situation in our brief conversations due to the fact that he says he is considering going on with out him due to having to deal with the adviser guy and his belief that football and AAU are the way for the kid to be seen despite the fact that the school team played for the state title. At first I wasn't sure about this but that part, about the school b-ball coach, is a red flag for me. Kids will miss summer workouts. That's just a fact of life. Like others I differentiate between June and July workouts and actual August practice. When I read that the coach of a 5A state finalist basketball team wants to get rid of the kid that makes me say "Hmm", though. BTDT on all of this. We had a team on which our three best players-all scholarship D1A players-were unreliable. They were miserable years and although we won we underachieved. The year after they graduated we were more successful with 'lesser" athletes. Incidentally, none of the three is still at his original school. A few hard questions: Does this kid have a future in basketball? In football? He's trying to get his Rivals ranking up? What is it now? Does he have offers? Can he qualify? What do the other kids feel about him? Is he a potential cancer who can kill your program for years? My gut feeling right now is a serious "come to Jesus" meeting with you, the b-ball coach, AD, the player, Mom and Dad. No "advisors". If he insists on bringing the advisor, end of story. Lay it on the line. These are your realistic options. These are your expectations. Meet them and he's more than welcome. If not, Au revoir. From what I've read, though, you may want to consider another year in the Pro I.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 9, 2008 10:34:30 GMT -6
For all these coaches who seem to not see a problem with this kid TELLING THE COACH HE IS NOT GOING TO CONDITIONING/PRACTICE because he is exhausted/saving up for AAU ball...at what point do you think this kid is going to STOP wagging the dog? I don't understand that line of thinking.
Real life anecdote.--Ryan Perrilloux Amazing athlete---but always wanted to put himself first. He couldn't handle being part of the team, he had to be the centerpiece. Had been coddled, and so as a freshman IN HS, he couldn't handle not being the superstar focal point getting his way. He left a school that had won 20+ state championships because the coach didn't "know how to use his abilities". Came in making HUGE BOASTS...but his college career was mired with issues because he never would do what the coaches asked (and why should he, he has been successful doing what he wanted to do). Now, one of the most highly sought after H.S players in the country will play a season at jacksonville state before hoping to get drafted.
If only someone would have TAUGHT the kid self sacrifice, self discipline....
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Post by tog on Jul 9, 2008 11:14:46 GMT -6
For all these coaches who seem to not see a problem with this kid TELLING THE COACH HE IS NOT GOING TO CONDITIONING/PRACTICE because he is exhausted/saving up for AAU ball.... i didn't see that point in the op if that was the case then on the days you aren't playing, you are here i will adjust what you do so you aren't totally dead legged for a game, but you are here
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 9, 2008 11:20:56 GMT -6
For all these coaches who seem to not see a problem with this kid TELLING THE COACH HE IS NOT GOING TO CONDITIONING/PRACTICE because he is exhausted/saving up for AAU ball.... i didn't see that point in the op if that was the case then on the days you aren't playing, you are here i will adjust what you do so you aren't totally dead legged for a game, but you are here According to the thread, that is indeed the case. The kid is telling the coach when he will and won't be there. Now, how does this change your answer above.
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Post by tog on Jul 9, 2008 11:25:28 GMT -6
not much kids tell coaches all the time they will or will not be there
if it is a legit reason-ok
going to summer basketball is fine, just let me know not coming to summer workouts for the exhaustion excuse? lame but technically we can't do anything about it as it is not mandatory
ok, once football starts--game-ok if they let me know but being tired? either come when the game isn't on ore just go stay in the dang gym
work with the kid though
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 9, 2008 11:39:36 GMT -6
not much kids tell coaches all the time they will or will not be there if it is a legit reason-ok Kids report to coaches when they will not be present for accountability reasons. Vastly different than a kid telling a coach he is not going to work out thursday because of a game on friday...or he will be taking off Monday's workout because he knows he will be tired from a weekend tournament. The kid missed 66% of June Conditioning,and from the posts, it is evident those misses are not solely because of conflicts... Again...I ask, if this is allowed...at what point do you expect the kid to "tow the line?" Why on Earth would anyone expect different behavior just because it is August, and not June/July.
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Post by jtdunbar on Jul 9, 2008 12:33:03 GMT -6
Sorry but I disagree with just showing up on the first day of practice. So, if a kid just shows up to the first day of practice, you aren't going to let him play? I don't know about where you coach, but where I am at, it doesn't work that way. A coach can't tell kids that they will not be allowed to come out for the team. What if a kid moves into your district a week before practice starts and he wants to play? Is he just out of luck? If a kid does not go through spring training,he will not play the following Fall. Two exceptions... 1)Transfer Student 2)Incoming Freshman. As for a kid currently on the roster dictating how much he will show up for Summer workouts,here is the deal. We have 27 workouts(not including 7 on 7 etc.). He will make at least 21 of those workouts are he will take a scheduled conditioning test that will make him seriously have second thoughts of playing football. As stated earlier, I do not have a problem in this area with kids making those 21. In my first year and a little in my second year,it was a bit of a problem. BTW, our school shares athletes with no problem and must in order for all of us to have success. All of our coaches are on the same page and have all had successful programs. I think that it is a lame excuse to allow your players to miss workouts to go play or "rest" for rec. sports during the summer. Nothing wrong with them playing but that is no excuse to miss workouts. I have two boys of my own involved in our athletic program and also participate in three other sports. They missed one summer workout to go on our family vacation. However, I must say that it is always easier to let that "star athlete" give you a bunch of great reasons as to why he will not be there. I just hope that the rest of your team understands that and hpefully that star will shine bright for you when the chips are down.
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Post by eickst on Jul 9, 2008 14:12:29 GMT -6
I'm sorry but I misinterpreted the original poster. I thought that this kids was missing practice, not voluntary summer workouts.
It's obviously better for him to attend but if it isn't mandatory, then you really can't punish him for not showing up.
When practice starts, if it were me, and he missed a practice, he would sit for a quarter of the game or more. Missing practice is not acceptable unless there are extraneous circumstances like death in the family etc.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 9, 2008 15:21:38 GMT -6
I know I've already weighed in on this subject. NO KID...NO MATTER how good he is...is necessary. and I will let some of you in on a little secret...a kid who doesn't come to anything...the kids who are in there busting their butts...they don't really want him out there with them anyway. And that includes coaches who can't ever seem to come to anything. I will even go one step further... I don't care WHY you aren't here, the reason (excuse) no matter how legit it may seem does not change the fact that you aren't here. You could be giving blood, feeding the homeless or just laying on the couch watching Dr. Phil, it's all the same to me. Absent is absent why is irrelevant because it doesn't change the fact that you weren't here. That's goes for being late too. Lets say you've used up all your sick days at work, then one monday you miss work. What excuses can you give your boss to save your job? What about the 2nd time you miss? What excuses are going to work then? Yea, I know they are just kids, but they are 14-18 year old kids and for those 18's they could very well be carrying a rifle in the Marine Corp 6 months from now...not real sure but I don't think absent, late or excuses are acceptable at that level. Along with the social aspects, and "hidden" curriculum being taught here, I think another reason to make the stand is overall program development. Lets say that this current kid is 5 star kid that will win you games on his own. What happens when he finishes/hopefully graduates? The next season..your best player isn't a 5 Star kid...but..hey, he is the best you got, soo..you look for reasons to keep him around...and he doesnt ever develop into much more than the 3 star player he was...and then a few of his equally talented buddies decide they aren't going either......and now you have issues.
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Post by jsucoach79 on Jul 9, 2008 19:58:27 GMT -6
This is why I came to this board with this scenario, I wanted the opinions of people who are in the same situation as I am. Let me give you more insight on the situation. The previous coach only let him return kicks and punts as well as be the 4th receiver due to his basketball commitments in the summer. The kid was a all state return man with 10 tds. That shows the type of electric ability that this kid has. I spoke with the kids parents today and informed them that he is no longer on the team due to his inability to come to practice when he was in town. I explained to them that I gave him a extra week off before the state mandated 2 week dead period. I then explained that not only am I sending the wrong message to the less talented members of the team but I am allowing him to cheat himself. They responded by saying that they understand. They then asked could he return at the end of the month when his basketball commitments are up and work his way up the depth chart and even be suspended a few games if necessary. They gave a sad story about him playing football since the age of 7 and the stress he is under trying to not let anyone down on either coaching side. They explained that he is in another state until Monday night and we all should meet on Tuesday when he returns. Here is my train of thought: he is too good of a athlete to be on the bench ,there is no way that I would have him dressed in uniform and not play him. I honestly love winning more than proving a point. Therefore I am considering not letting him on the team at all. That way I am not in that position. I hate to cut off my face to spite my nose. I am considering telling them that he can return provided that he does not go on the 2 week Orlando trip. Remember that we are in the state allowed 15 day pre-practice area. That means that this period of time is not just lifting and running. After sharing this info please continue to share your comments and as always thanks in advance.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 9, 2008 20:39:26 GMT -6
For all these coaches who seem to not see a problem with this kid TELLING THE COACH HE IS NOT GOING TO CONDITIONING/PRACTICE because he is exhausted/saving up for AAU ball...at what point do you think this kid is going to STOP wagging the dog? I don't understand that line of thinking. Here's my disconnect...I don't know what the rules are in other states. What I DO knoiw that in my state, you CANNOT make off-season participation mandatory....there are SPECIFIC rules in place that can result in sanctions aganst coaches and schools who use a player's lack of summer participation as a reason to not allow that kid to play. As far as this kid wagging the dog goes, once the season begins, those rules that protect kids who don't do anything in the offsason no longer apply. So, if there is a team or school rule in place that penalizes a kid with reduced playing time or with dismissal from the tem, that is perfectly acceptable.
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Post by jtdunbar on Jul 9, 2008 20:52:44 GMT -6
This is why I came to this board with this scenario, I wanted the opinions of people who are in the same situation as I am. Let me give you more insight on the situation. The previous coach only let him return kicks and punts as well as be the 4th receiver due to his basketball commitments in the summer. The kid was a all state return man with 10 tds. That shows the type of electric ability that this kid has. I spoke with the kids parents today and informed them that he is no longer on the team due to his inability to come to practice when he was in town. I explained to them that I gave him a extra week off before the state mandated 2 week dead period. I then explained that not only am I sending the wrong message to the less talented members of the team but I am allowing him to cheat himself. They responded by saying that they understand. They then asked could he return at the end of the month when his basketball commitments are up and work his way up the depth chart and even be suspended a few games if necessary. They gave a sad story about him playing football since the age of 7 and the stress he is under trying to not let anyone down on either coaching side. They explained that he is in another state until Monday night and we all should meet on Tuesday when he returns. Here is my train of thought: he is too good of a athlete to be on the bench ,there is no way that I would have him dressed in uniform and not play him. I honestly love winning more than proving a point. Therefore I am considering not letting him on the team at all. That way I am not in that position. I hate to cut off my face to spite my nose. I am considering telling them that he can return provided that he does not go on the 2 week Orlando trip. Remember that we are in the state allowed 15 day pre-practice area. That means that this period of time is not just lifting and running. After sharing this info please continue to share your comments and as always thanks in advance. You are right in line coach with the way I would handle that situation. Hope you don't get fired.lol. You are right in terms of having him sit if he is that talented. My thoughts have always been that if his attitude or work habits were not good enough then he would not be able to wear a uniform for me. If he has those qualities along with talent then he will always play and be allowed to utilize those talents.
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Post by scoresalot on Jul 10, 2008 7:07:37 GMT -6
I have a problem with everyone calling AAU or "summer" sports Rec. sports. Sometimes kids can get scholarship opportunities in these so called "rec" sports more than from their school seasons. Just because it is not associated with a school doesn't mean it should be less of a commitment. My problem with sports in general is that everyone wants their sport to be the only one that is important, and they want kids to focus on their sport "ONLY" at younger and younger ages. I think this is going to bite us coaches soon. Kids are actually starting to go back to multiple sports again. They used to do it, then it died down, but now I am seeing more and more kids doing it again. If we start making our sports mandatory in the off-season we will lose quality kids. Sports in high school are not only about winning and losing, although it is important. They are about kids learning to be quality people. It this young man made a commitment to an AAU team, and their season is in the summer, then he needs to uphold that commitment. Same with baseball players. Yes, they should be able to do both most of the time, but it is not like his conditioning will be bad. Maybe he won't be able to lift as much in the weight room, but I believe the competition will help him as much as the weight room (in high school).
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Post by schultbear74 on Jul 10, 2008 7:19:55 GMT -6
Ther is a book coming out by Sokolov (SP?) that talks about the problems being encountered by one sport athletes who spend all year doing the same thing. Especially at risk were soccer, volleyball and basketball girls and their ACLs. He concluded that they would be better served by a. playing another sport and therein relieving the constant repetitive stress on the same parts day after day. or b. being involved in an offseason speed, strength and conditioning program. I am really concerned about baseball and basketball athletes in my school. I have observed their off season workouts and find them to be wanting. Our school is so compartmentalized athletically though that I have to move slowly.
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Post by justryn2 on Jul 10, 2008 9:53:42 GMT -6
To me, the key question is "Why is he missing these sessions?" If he truly has an AAU Bball commitment on the day and time of the camp sessions, it would be tough for me to penalize the kid for fulfilling that commitment. If he's skipping camp sessions on Wednesday because of an AAU game on Saturday, that's bulls#!t. Nonetheless, if he has incredible talent, and he make all the mandatory practice sessions once AAU is over, I would let return punts and kickoffs. I would not count on him as my starting QB.
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Post by buchananm on Jul 10, 2008 10:19:51 GMT -6
AAU and "Club" are the worst things that ever happened to high school athletics. The false message "you are more likely to get a scholarship" is the driving force, but reality says otherwise. The State High School Athletic Associations need to take a serious look at this.
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Post by eickst on Jul 10, 2008 10:56:47 GMT -6
Ok, so if he is playing a NON HIGH SCHOOL competing sport, I say he shouldn't miss any time at all. That's great that he wants to play AAU and all that, but if it isn't affiliated with the High School than to me it isn't an official event, and therefore, to me, not really an excuse to miss any functions.
What if the kid said he had taekwondo practice or something and had to miss the workout? What would you do then? What if he wanted to play badminton with the local badminton club?
Just because it's basketball doesn't make it legit.
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Post by scoresalot on Jul 10, 2008 11:09:30 GMT -6
Ok, so if he is playing a NON HIGH SCHOOL competing sport, I say he shouldn't miss any time at all. That's great that he wants to play AAU and all that, but if it isn't affiliated with the High School than to me it isn't an official event, and therefore, to me, not really an excuse to miss any functions. What if the kid said he had taekwondo practice or something and had to miss the workout? What would you do then? What if he wanted to play badminton with the local badminton club? Just because it's basketball doesn't make it legit. Just because it's not high school doesn't make it illegitimate. Someone said that it is not true that club sports don't help you get scholarships. That is true in some sports. In sports like baseball, many scholarships come from nonschool teams. I have coached both Varsity baseball for high school and select high school aged teams, and I have talked to far more scouts about my select players than my high school players. Not because of lack of effort, but the scouts are at summer games far more than high school, because they are playing too. Pro scouts are at both. I agree with justryn2. Why is he missing? He should be there on off days, but the kid should not be punished for being a multi-sport athlete. If he is making an effort, then coach should be flexible. If not, then there is a decision to make. By the way, I am also a varsity football coach. So, I understand the importance of the weight room and dedication. I was also a two sport athlete in college and three in high school. I believe playing all made me better in all more than just being in the weight room ever would have.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 11:41:39 GMT -6
Ok, so if he is playing a NON HIGH SCHOOL competing sport, I say he shouldn't miss any time at all. That's great that he wants to play AAU and all that, but if it isn't affiliated with the High School than to me it isn't an official event, and therefore, to me, not really an excuse to miss any functions. What if the kid said he had taekwondo practice or something and had to miss the workout? What would you do then? What if he wanted to play badminton with the local badminton club? Just because it's basketball doesn't make it legit. Just because it's not high school doesn't make it illegitimate. Someone said that it is not true that club sports don't help you get scholarships. That is true in some sports. In sports like baseball, many scholarships come from nonschool teams. I have coached both Varsity baseball for high school and select high school aged teams, and I have talked to far more scouts about my select players than my high school players. Not because of lack of effort, but the scouts are at summer games far more than high school, because they are playing too. Pro scouts are at both. I agree with justryn2. Why is he missing? He should be there on off days, but the kid should not be punished for being a multi-sport athlete. If he is making an effort, then coach should be flexible. If not, then there is a decision to make. By the way, I am also a varsity football coach. So, I understand the importance of the weight room and dedication. I was also a two sport athlete in college and three in high school. I believe playing all made me better in all more than just being in the weight room ever would have. No offense coach, but did actually read what was written. It answers the question you (and other coaches ) asked. He clearly stated that the young man was missing practices to keep himself "fresh" for tournaments, or because he was "exhausted" from others. Even if the two occasions mentioned were the only two, that is already two too many. Also coach, please spare us the "baseball" scholarship. It does not exist. You know it, I know it..the football coaching community knows it. I do agree with you, that not being affiliated with school is NOT grounds for being illegitimate.
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