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Post by talexander on Apr 19, 2008 1:43:09 GMT -6
I have a few issues with my program. I am pretty sure that I know the answer, but thought I would ask.
Here goes:
Our frosh team was co champions this past year. I should point out that I had taken over last year two days before the season began. As a result, I did not get to interact with them as much as I would have liked.
As a result of winning, they believe they are above the program and do not have to show up for training. We have stated that they will have to make it up, but they think we are kidding. (they are also behavior problems)
Then came today.... during our program wide meeting, in which I addressed program behavior and presented our team "creed" about what it means to be a member of our program (respect, hardwork, etc)--a few players were laughing and screwing around. They were told by other coaches to stop. I told them to stop. When I passed out the papers, one player (who unfortunately is a phenom RB) crumpled up the "creed" and threw it on the ground. I didn't see it, but my D coordinator did and he almost lost it. I was beyond upset once I figured out what happened. We threw the three out the meeting.
Debate is wide ranging amongst our staff as what to do with this kid. One coach says throw him off, another said bench him 1st game, etc, I have gone back and forth, although I am leaning towards benching 1st game (hewill likely transfer however)
I know it shouldn't matter, but some of them have talked about leaving and I fear that some will follow him if he goes.
My first thought is "if he goes he goes" but realistically he will likely take 4-5 really good athetes with him. And. . if this "golden team" as everyone thinks it is happens to now loose I will be blamed.
Much of their resistance stems from them getting every thing they wanted in youth and getting away with stuff last year.
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Post by bj88smc on Apr 19, 2008 5:47:59 GMT -6
Show them the door. Sounds like you are already pulling out your hair, cut them loose and enjoy your season with kids who want to be there. Get rid of them ASAP.
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Post by superpower on Apr 19, 2008 6:28:16 GMT -6
Stick to your guns, Coach. You outlined your expectations in the creed. If they choose not to abide by your rules, there have to be consequences. They might be good athletes, but apparently they lack character. When they get into tough games, you wouldn't be able to count on them anyway.
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Post by rideanddecide on Apr 19, 2008 6:31:46 GMT -6
Where are your upperclassmen?
If this is really just a freshman class problem, aren't your juniors and sophomores kicking their tail?
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Post by dacoachmo on Apr 19, 2008 6:34:16 GMT -6
Try suspending them from the program for a period of time...contact parents(etc)...then when they come back and still are IMMATURE and DISRESPECTFUL, say BYE-BYE! have everything documented to cover yourself!!
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Post by yellowjacketo on Apr 19, 2008 8:39:50 GMT -6
I agree with many of the previous posts, in particular beardc, these are underclassmen. But the real question is do you want to build a program you are proud of and love to coach year in and year out, or will you sacrifice your beliefs and program and sanity for a few possible wins. The kids will only respect your philosophy if you do. Good luck!
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zbessac
Sophomore Member
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Post by zbessac on Apr 19, 2008 8:48:20 GMT -6
I guess my question to you is this... What is more important to you, a few extra wins in the next few seasons or helping teach young men how to grow up and become men? If this kid thinks that he can just run to a different team when you don't let him get away with what he wants, he will have another thing coming. He may get to play somewhere else for awhile, but eventually his attitude will catch up with him. Also, if you allow one or two athletes to disrespect you, how you expect the rest of the team to respect you. I think in the long run you will gain more respect from more people if you stick to your guns. Good Luck Coach.
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Post by hustleandheart on Apr 19, 2008 9:04:42 GMT -6
Talexander... what do you plan on doing? Just curious, thanks.
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Post by justryn2 on Apr 19, 2008 9:23:31 GMT -6
Coach talexander, I think it comes down to why you're coaching football. If you're coaching just to win as many football games as you can, then do what it takes to keep your best athletes happy and hope they don't eventually decide to quit on you anyway. On the other hand, if you coach this game because of what it can teach young men about life and what it takes to succeed, kick the cocky frosh, and anyone else who wants to follow him, off your team. And then be very, very reluctant to let them back on.
My $.02 worth.
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Post by airman on Apr 19, 2008 11:39:18 GMT -6
one has to remember these are freshman. they might be burn outs by the time they are on varsity.
if they are so good bring them up to the varsity level. I believe that the best play on varsity regardless of age.
if these cats are so good, they should be on varsity. my guess here is they are matured phycially but not mentially.
this is why I believe in a point system.
people know what I believe. give me 11 rudys and I will compete for a state championship each year.
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kr7263
Sophomore Member
Posts: 228
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Post by kr7263 on Apr 19, 2008 12:07:14 GMT -6
We just started a head coaches round table group at our school so that we can have general across the board athletic "policies". For removing players the consensus is to have a due process that communicates to parents-athletes etc - In this day and age you need to cya -dot the i's and cross all t's.
1. communicate to the parents the policy, call the parents and describe the behavior and explain what is happening. If the parents want to meet - always meet with an administrator & or another coach - have strict and specific rules in this meeting - IE no profanity; will not talk about other players; limit meeting to specific behavior.
2. have a individual meeting with the kid - if you feel its appropriate - give the kid a "behavior contract" IE you must do this..this.. and this to get back on the team. Have him sign it - it is HIS responsibility to fulfill whatever you want him to do.
3. Get a leadership group / team leaders together - include frosh players - generally describe the behaviors you wont except and go through how you want things to be. Put the responsibility on this group to model good behavior and to talk to those who don't.
4. Post weight room attendance / lifting accomplishments every where you can - put it on the announcements - give out t-shirts - if you have alumni playing college ball - have them visit the wt room - Do whatever you can to make it a big deal.
5. Make football a privilege - This is the big time - Our program is IT. Get the leaders to buy in and sell it. That way if a kid gets kicked off it is a big deal. If the kid gets kicked off have a team meeting and make it a big deal - communicate what is expected all the time.
Remember these ARE KIDS - kids make poor / wrong decisions all the time. It is easy for us to dismiss the problem away. I have and will continue to boot kids off the team if they refuse to conform, however, I want to do everything possible to help the kid.
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Post by coachbw on Apr 19, 2008 13:03:08 GMT -6
My position is that being a first year head coach is somewhat like being a new teacher. Being hard on these kids now may set the tone for your program. Unfortunately not being hard on these kids now may also set the tone for your program. It a student-athlete did that to me or one of my assistants I would be in our AD's office discussing it with him and pushing for the removal of the player in question.
In response to the other kids who may leave if he does . . . if they have the character to follow him out the door, then the do not have had the character to walk through the weight room doors daily (and other things necessary) to become champions anyways.
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vic4417
Probationary Member
Only the tough and strong can call themselves Spartans
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Post by vic4417 on Apr 19, 2008 14:16:28 GMT -6
I would kick him off the team. i hope you are not going to let a freshmen control they way you want to run your program. kid want discipline they want direction this player you describe is a freshmen and is testing you to see how far he can push you. I coach at the varsity level in football but i coach basketball and baseball at the freshmen level. I had the similar problem with a freshmen basketball player 3 years back i heard of this player he's great fast scorer etc. The kid was all of the above and his past coached pampered him and let him do what he wanted. So one day at practice i made the team run and he was not hustling so i called him out he got loud so i kicked him off the team i told him to leave the gym area he pick up his stuff and walked out i stress to the team that no-one on this team is bigger than the team if you do not like the way i coach or my rules you are also welcomed to leave. No one left and we continued practicing. after practice i went to my office and the player was their waiting for me. i asked him what he wanted He said, I just want to apologize for the way i acted and i want to play basketball. I stress to him that i do not except that type of behavior and once i kick you off the team that is it. I told him i do not need or want you back but i will asked the team if they want you back because they will be the ones that will pay for any other outburst you might have so come back tomorrow and i will ask the team what we will do with you . Of course they took him back and he and the team had a great season. The player now knew were i stood. Now we joke about it and he turned out to be a great person on and off the court.
If your players are out of control and show no repect and will not listen to you what will they do when the game is on the line.
If he leaves and take players let them leave make the other players on the team better. Just remeber you are a coach and your jobs is to mold boys into men. No-one is bigger than the team.
Later vic4417
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Post by optionguy on Apr 19, 2008 14:47:42 GMT -6
Try suspending them from the program for a period of time...contact parents(etc)...then when they come back and still are IMMATURE and DISRESPECTFUL, say BYE-BYE! have everything documented to cover yourself!! This is the best response in your situation. I am a school administrator and whenever one of my coaches approaches me for support with this type of situation, I back him/her fully as long as they involve the parents. |
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Post by wildcat on Apr 19, 2008 16:30:10 GMT -6
It sounds like there are some deeper issues than simply a bunch of freshmen who had a good season...
I've been around good freshman and sophomore teams and I have NEVER seen or heard of kids who act like these kids you described.
Furthermore, if this one kid who is a stud is going to take 4-5 other good kids with him, you really need to get to the bottom of things. No offense, coach, but it sounds like there are some pretty serious issues in your locker room that won't solved by simply taking out the trash...
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Post by schultbear74 on Apr 19, 2008 16:38:02 GMT -6
I like the involve the parents and the administration things. Let them know what the bottom line may be. The truth is that prima donnas react when they lose playing time. A good rule to institute is that you have different expectations for varsity and junior varsity players. People who exhibit behaviors such as these athletes (especially if they won't attend off-season work) can come out, but they will not dress for a varsity contest during the season.
This has become more difficult to do for some with all of the pimps getting involved in the careers of young men, but we must remember that our job is to be educators first.
I don't believe in no child left behind, I believe that some children must be pushed aside. We can't save all of them unless they want to be saved and we lose more of them when we hang on to the turds too long.
You will save more in the long run if you push some aside.
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Post by phantom on Apr 19, 2008 17:22:47 GMT -6
I have a few issues with my program. I am pretty sure that I know the answer, but thought I would ask. Here goes: Our frosh team was co champions this past year. I should point out that I had taken over last year two days before the season began. As a result, I did not get to interact with them as much as I would have liked. As a result of winning, they believe they are above the program and do not have to show up for training. We have stated that they will have to make it up, but they think we are kidding. (they are also behavior problems) Then came today.... during our program wide meeting, in which I addressed program behavior and presented our team "creed" about what it means to be a member of our program (respect, hardwork, etc)--a few players were laughing and screwing around. They were told by other coaches to stop. I told them to stop. When I passed out the papers, one player (who unfortunately is a phenom RB) crumpled up the "creed" and threw it on the ground. I didn't see it, but my D coordinator did and he almost lost it. I was beyond upset once I figured out what happened. We threw the three out the meeting. Debate is wide ranging amongst our staff as what to do with this kid. One coach says throw him off, another said bench him 1st game, etc, I have gone back and forth, although I am leaning towards benching 1st game (hewill likely transfer however) I know it shouldn't matter, but some of them have talked about leaving and I fear that some will follow him if he goes. My first thought is "if he goes he goes" but realistically he will likely take 4-5 really good athetes with him. And. . if this "golden team" as everyone thinks it is happens to now loose I will be blamed. Much of their resistance stems from them getting every thing they wanted in youth and getting away with stuff last year. You had such a late start that this is really your first year for establishing your program. This is what I would do: 1. Even before you get around to the freshmen I think you need to call in the seniors for a little chat about leadership. You need to have somebody step up and police the locker room and show the newcomers the right way to do things. Before the seniors can do that somebody has to show the seniors. If the seniors can't do it it may have to be juniors. 2. Bring in each of the freshmen ringleaders individually (divide and conquer) and, using however strong language you use, let them know what your expectations are and that they are not meeting them. This will be a one-sided talk Don't let them make it into a dialogue. Spell out step by step what you expect of them and what the consequences will be if they are not met. If it was me the concequences would be: A. JV-only status for the year for the first problem; B. Dismissal for the season for the next. Stick to it. 3. Have another program-wide meeting. Talk about the idea the team is more important than any individual. I like the Lou Holtz line, "Stick your hand in a bucket of water. When you take your hand out you'll leave the same hole that will be left if you quit this team.". Never, ever let any individual hold the program hostage. |
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Post by coachcoyote on Apr 20, 2008 0:46:30 GMT -6
He's a freshman, but. Has he been successful before? Did his previous coaches allow him to run things as he saw fit. What happened to his team mates? Did they allow him to do as he pleased? If the answers were yes, then he needs an example of team, not me. If he tasted success for the first time, he doesn't know how to handle it. If this is how his young experience has shown him that people will kow-tow to him, he needs to be shown the proper way. What's his home life like? Parents allow this type of behavior? You're at a crossroad with your team now. Some may leave if he does. so be it. Try to salvage him, but make him earn the privilege of being on the team. If he doesn't want to abide by your policy, send him packing. You won't regret it in the future.
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Post by schultbear74 on Apr 20, 2008 7:22:24 GMT -6
Great stuff. I love the Lou Holtzism.
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Post by coache67 on Apr 20, 2008 9:03:36 GMT -6
Exactly what dcohio said - it's April. Also, we are talking about the freshman team - co champs - big deal. It doesn't sound like you have spring football, but if you did, this would be an opportune time to let your defense "deal out" some discipline.
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Post by Coach JR on Apr 20, 2008 9:04:25 GMT -6
There's nothing good that can come from coddling or ignoring such behavior from a player. That said, keeping him on the team isn't coddling him IF you do it the right way. I like the "you decide your own fate" approach. Sit the kid down, directly address what he did that was so disrespectful to the entire program. Then tell him "you decide if you want to continue to play here." Lay down the ground rules, including making amends to the coaches and other players he disrespected. YOU decide how that is done. Then tell the kid, if you do that, and follow all the rules, we will all be better off. If you don't then I'll take it you've decided not to be a part of our program. Either way, it's your choice.
Just an observation...it sounds as if you stepped in to a program lacking in discipline BEFORE you got there. In such situations, rooting out the cancers and removing them, (cleaning house) is usually the best approach. But, doing as I described above helps you seperate the cancers from the ones that may appear to be cancers, but will come around to your way of thinking with some motivation. (I don't know your school's situation, but how is it these kids can be so free to transer? Private school?) You may lose a fewe or even a lot of players to begin with, but ultimately, if you sell the parents and admin on your way, they'll understand a few losses in the short term, to build a good foundation for the long term.
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Post by fatkicker on Apr 20, 2008 12:35:50 GMT -6
talk to him one on one.....if he still shows his backside then show him the door....
i'd make every effort to save him, but you can't allow a freshman to run the show......he'll be a headache for the next 3 years......
i'd rather coach kids that a like to be around.....
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Post by airman on Apr 20, 2008 14:35:30 GMT -6
Is this kid going to play varsity as a soph?
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ramsoc
Junior Member
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Post by ramsoc on Apr 20, 2008 17:01:07 GMT -6
What are your transfer rules like where this kid would just be able to walk and "take" 4-5 other guys with him?
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Post by CVBears on Apr 20, 2008 19:02:57 GMT -6
I think that it is very important to consider the fact that these boys are freshmen. There is a ton of growth that they are going to go through (whether positive or negative) and the will, hopefully, mature. If this was the beginning of fall camp with a junior or senior, I think a more harsh penalty would be warranted. But being that he is a freshman, he probably doesn't understand the meaning of program (which I were you, I would have a talk with the freshmen coaches to figure out why this was the case). I am also assuming that this is the first time that you have had any real contact with him other than good game last week/how are your grades/seeing him in the halls. Has there been opportunities for you to develop rapport with the kid? Sit him down and talk with him about the values of an entire program and what each person's role within that program is. Make him understand that he is more than welcome to go other places if he does not want to be a part of your program, but he needs to understand what it is first. And if he goes (or the 4-5 other players), I promise that the headaches of fitting your program to a player will be much greater than having a player fit into the program/leave the program. Finally, at the end of the talk, I would outline whatever consequences you see fit that will happen if he goes against the program another time. This/these consequence/consequences I believe should be harsh in either a suspension or removal from the team. But the kid is only a freshman, he needs to know what's going on first.
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Post by towtheline on Apr 20, 2008 20:51:21 GMT -6
one thing about being a coach is that you can't worry about whether you will be fired or not. Go with your gut and work as hard as you can and everything will work itself out.
you must remember that winning football games should not be your main priority, teaching boys to become good hardworking men that treat everyone with respect and all that good stuff should be your priority.
for example one of my teammates in 06 was one of the worst football players I have ever seen. He was a senior and was 2nd string JV. One day he just sort of realized that he doesn't have to work hard in practice anymore and began to disrespect the coaches regularly. The HC called him in one day and they talked about it a little bit. The kid wanted to quit but the HC wouldn't let him even though he doesn't contribute at all, the coach gave every effort he had trying to keep the kid on the team and noone knew why. The kid ended up staying and I asked the coach one day why he didn't want him to quit and he said that the kids brothers played under him as well. They all quit the team and all three of them dropped out and are in prison for drug related issues. Today the kid is still my friend and is in college majoring in business and has a 3.5 GPA.
sometimes kids need the team more than the team needs them and there is nothing wrong with that
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Post by schultbear74 on Apr 20, 2008 21:01:16 GMT -6
Great story TOW. Some cancers you keep and cure and some you cut out Good headcoaches do it well.
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Post by talexander on Apr 20, 2008 22:14:16 GMT -6
Thanks gentlemen, as always excellent advice. Most of what was said is exactly how I feel, just like to have confirmation. Also, this is a program that had little discipline in past--school is only 3 years old. . .
We plan to pull all the frosh out of class for a 'soul searching' meeting. One of our assistants (who was their assistant last year) is going to start off buy asking all as a whole what the hell is going on, and shaking them up a bit. I plan to come in, along with other members and explain that we are not going to tolerate this business any longer, and that if they want to transfer I will gladly sign their papers. Quite simply, either buy in or get the %#@ out.
We will then talk to the three after, and give them a contract that states that if they so much as fart the wrong way they will be down the road.
I have already talked to the three parents .. . . one parent is an idiot who thinks the problem is that we do not give the kid the ball enough.
We are also going to talk to our seniors (who actually are a pretty good group, but are not good leaders in terms of getting others to buy in)
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kr7263
Sophomore Member
Posts: 228
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Post by kr7263 on Apr 21, 2008 6:47:53 GMT -6
I love the bad cop / worse cop idea, especially for frosh - easier to shake them up as a group then hammer them as individuals when they get out of line. I heard a good line this weekend:
Rules without relationship lead to rebellion. Relationship without rules lead to rejection.
I forget which coach had this rule: "for every negative I give 4 positives" - now try to catch these kids doing good.
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Post by coachweav88 on Apr 21, 2008 9:53:55 GMT -6
Pull a "Coach Carter" on them. Because of their behavior, they must do x amount of pushups or situps to be able to participate . "You either push up or shut up. That's up to you."  love that movie |
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love that movie