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Post by coachjim on Sept 5, 2007 7:16:18 GMT -6
I know, Brophy, I know... you called it. So, the thorn in my side ex-hc, who I took on as an assistant (against Brophy's advice ) showed his true colors in practice. I think i'm going to really need your advice on this one. There are many things to take into consideration so every thought is welcome. *Youth, volunteer coaching. *All assistants unreliable, not taking time to learn offense. *All assistants needed because I can't do it alone(?) 1. One asst: Too busy doing league stuff to be at practice but does great work for league. 2. DC who can only make some practices, good teacher, no time yet to go out of way for team. 3. Ex-HC asst. Reliably at practice, good teacher, set in his ways. And now, insurbordinate. Refused last night to teach my line stance (no foot back to help down block first step and guard pulling) and to teach down blocking with shoulder/helmet hole at belly button. He teaches only hand blocking, he told me. I should add, I can't monitor what he does and do what I need to do at the same time. But sometimes he is the only one who shows up. I did go over my linemen assignmens so he now knows why we down block, but this only showed me he has not even perused my offensive info packet. This is youth, not high school or pros. Please imagine yourslf in this spot and give me your honest opinions. I really need em, for better or worse. Thanks.
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Post by brophy on Sept 5, 2007 8:06:02 GMT -6
1) get rid of him 2) get parents to hold bags for 10-15 minutes in practice 3) get a team mom .......I'm not saying that is best, but it is what I have to do now, because I have guys "on staff" but only one guy can actually do anything (when he's there). Not great, but at least I can divide the kids up into groups to work on fundamentals, then correct the large picture in team. Put the Oline together.....to work stance on their own, while you start the backs working together on a circuit, once they get going, go back and teach the Oline. YOU take the Oline (it is the most important) and just have the backs & QBs work on mesh exchange, parents can hold bags for that or oversee them. I don't have the answers, and I'm sure we will struggle this year because of it, but it is what it is.
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Post by knighter on Sept 5, 2007 11:14:36 GMT -6
coach them all by yourself...i have done it with 40+ hs age kids, you can make it work
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Post by davecisar on Sept 5, 2007 17:40:28 GMT -6
Cut him loose and make a plea to parents.
All you need is someone that can follow simple directions, make it clear to the parents, no experience required, following the coaches direction "required".
Some of my best youth football coaches never even played the game. BTW some of my worst ones were former college players.
Steve Calande in his JH Days used to do it all by himself. You may want to beg a favor from him. I think he often had his O-line show up early and leave early so he could have one on one time with each group. Something to consider. I require all my head coaches to coach the O-line BTW and I coach it even though I was an offensive back in HS and College.
Youth coaches are hard to come by but thats why we do mandatory coaches clinics and coaching contracts to make sure they know what is expected and how we are going to do things. Some of those rookie coaches really sink their teeth into this stuff, are willing students of the game. Those kind of guys are my preferance.
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Post by tiger46 on Sept 5, 2007 22:04:07 GMT -6
"Please imagine yourself in this spot and give me your honest opinions. I really need em, for better or worse. Thanks."
I don't have to imagine it. I was in that situation last season. And, it was my fault that I was there. You've been given the best advice by experienced coaches that are a lot better than I'll ever be. I'll throw in advice from a coach with nowhere near their experience and ability but, has been where you are. All in all, if I had to do it all over again; I wouldn't go through that again. I'd give any asst. coach with that attitude the keys to the street before our first game.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 6, 2007 8:45:43 GMT -6
Last night in scrimmage, had qb break finger on throwing hand. I can't wait until practice tonight and the coaches meeting i'm going to have. Game 1 is in two days... i'm gonna make red faced Giants Coach Tom Coughlin look shy.
Thanks for the great advice again, this time i'll take it.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 6, 2007 10:08:42 GMT -6
Coach, friendly word of advice here, take it for what its worth:
Ive had to let go lots of coaches over the years and while it may make you feel better and you may be 100% justified at getting angry at a guy, its best to let guys go a little softer. No one s going to feel good about getting fired from a volunteer position but if you add gasolne to the situation, it can get ugly. As difficult as it may seem , look at the long term and whats best for the kids. LEss drama=better for the kids.
I try and tell the guy thanks for his time and effort, they are appreciated but that you want to try and take the program in a different direction with a consistent well integrated system. For a guy like that I would tel him hes better suited to be a head coach than assistant and thats OK, but you are going to give the HC role a try this season. Tell him no hard feelings and good luck but that whats best for the kids is not a bunch of unneeded drama and that you expect out of someone that cares about the kids he will nor create any drama, again for the benefit of the boys. I would do it outside of practice in person and follow it up with an e-mail restating what you told him in your face to face all in positive tones as difficult as it may be. Give the guy an out, he's head coaching material and will do a good job with another team in another year.
The guy may have an ally or two with parents and you dont want him having ammo to make things more difficult for you. Bite your tounge and live well or feel good about bashing the guy and create some season long drama for yourself may be the choices.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 9, 2007 3:40:38 GMT -6
Dave, he has no allys, not after winning one game in three years. What I DID do was sit down and write him a long letter, including some quotes from previous posts stating, "cut him loose," and "get rid of him!" It felt so good to put all those comments down on paper that by the time I saw him next practice, it just didn't seem as worth it, anymore.
What I did instead of giving him the nice little letter, which now that I take a look at it again, would have made a grown man cry... was to sit him down and tell him exactly what I needed from him and rewent over the offense. He looked a little uncomfortable that he was taking direction from me at first but when he began to see the brilliance of the offensive system and how it really worked, his entire demeanor changed.
So, he's still there. He missed a scrimmage the other night but his role is as minimal as I can make it so it wasn't so bad. Now I have him concentrating on the non-playside stuff and although he isn't following directions and still doing whatever he wants, at least I feel like the HC again. Not that it was of primary importance but at least he no longer steps on my toes.
God, I hope i'm not making the same mistakes over and over and over. Sometimes, I think i'm too nice. But you are right, it is volunteer and that makes a big difference, I suppose.
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Post by brophy on Sept 9, 2007 7:29:46 GMT -6
He missed a scrimmage the other night but his role is as minimal as I can make it so it wasn't so bad. Now I have him concentrating on the non-playside stuff and although he isn't following directions and still doing whatever he wants Grow some.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 15, 2007 5:21:50 GMT -6
It's not that easy Brophy. Ever coach by yourself with no assistants? Its not fun or safe. I'll grow some stones, when assistants grow on trees. Until then, I have to take what I can get, unfortunately. If I was in my third or fourth year, I might try to do it but until than i'm stuck.
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Post by brophy on Sept 15, 2007 5:30:59 GMT -6
It's not that easy Brophy. Ever coach by yourself with no assistants? I am doing it now. The bottom line, either you're going to do something about it, or you really don't have a right to complain. Do what you want, but this guy is dead weight and hurting your program. How difficult is it to ask one or two parents to volunteer to hold a bag now and then? Its just like asking to bring snacks / treats.
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Post by davecisar on Sept 15, 2007 5:44:17 GMT -6
In a very rare instance I am defintely agreeing with Brophy on this LOL. Ive lived on both sides of this fence and had to make the decision lots of times. Whenever I kept the guy, it was a HUGE mistake by end of season. I always kidded my self, THIS time will be different, this guy is different. After a bunch of those I said nah, let em go everytime. Mind you I do this for lots of teams as I coach my own teams and run an org with many teams etc.
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Post by coachtfry on Sept 15, 2007 6:52:34 GMT -6
Coach, "If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always gotten!" You need to make a clean break. Keep that guy around if you want to destroy your program. It would be better for you to coach the entire team yourself so everyone will believe in what you are doing. Do not let that guy coach any longer. He will undermine everything you do. You will regret it if you let him stay. I made the same mistake and my team suffered because of it. You will start to hate coaching if you keep this guy on your staff! Get someone else. They do not need to know anything. Teach them the drills that you want them to run and check up on them during practice to make sure they are doing them your way.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Sept 15, 2007 9:14:28 GMT -6
There are no "options" here, there is simply a challenge to your authority. The only answer to that challenge which will leave you with any power at all to coach your team is to excise the cancer.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 17, 2007 16:15:40 GMT -6
I've been running it more or less myself from the start, I think I have got him in check now. We had our 2nd game and he saw what Ted's offense can do to the 2005 champs who hadn't ben scored on in seven games. Think I saw a twinkle of awe in his eye!
I truly respect all of your advise... its scary knowing what is gonna happen and knowing you are all right about this... argh.
(by the way Ted... we got a 71 yard TD off of your reverse play! Man, was that pretty.) (I use the Tail instead of the SE... its such a sweet play!)
I'll write soon with the details. 4 TD's! Parents we're crying, kids all into it! We lost on D, but it was a work of art. There's no questioning that kind of success, he's hooked I think. Is it enough? You should have seen him. Maybe, like w/ the kids the loser mentality had set in. Now that everyone is all fired up... everything is different. What we needed was hope. I guess i'll keep ya guys posted, don't be too disgusted with me for probably making a ig mistake you ll know too well. Ugh.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Sept 18, 2007 12:06:31 GMT -6
I guess i'll keep ya guys posted, don't be too disgusted with me for probably making a ig mistake you ll know too well. Ugh. Jim: Don't get me wrong -- I gave you my opinion, and you as Hazza Gazza are free to ignore it. (Opinions are like arseholes, remember? Everyone's got one...) You're Jimmy-On-The-Spot, so you get to make all the hard decisions, accept the accolades when you get it right, and duck the rotten produce when and if you screw up. Meanwhile, keep coaching, coach. That's what your kids need most.
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Post by dubber on Sept 23, 2007 20:41:21 GMT -6
I've been running it more or less myself from the start, I think I have got him in check now. We had our 2nd game and he saw what Ted's offense can do to the 2005 champs who hadn't ben scored on in seven games. Think I saw a twinkle of awe in his eye! I truly respect all of your advise... its scary knowing what is gonna happen and knowing you are all right about this... argh. (by the way Ted... we got a 71 yard TD off of your reverse play! Man, was that pretty.) (I use the Tail instead of the SE... its such a sweet play!) I'll write soon with the details. 4 TD's! Parents we're crying, kids all into it! We lost on D, but it was a work of art. There's no questioning that kind of success, he's hooked I think. Is it enough? You should have seen him. Maybe, like w/ the kids the loser mentality had set in. Now that everyone is all fired up... everything is different. What we needed was hope. I guess i'll keep ya guys posted, don't be too disgusted with me for probably making a ig mistake you ll know too well. Ugh. You're a wild buncher? How's that working at the youth level?
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Sept 24, 2007 3:18:12 GMT -6
You're a wild buncher? How's that working at the youth level? dubber: Jim's using the youth Wing-T that I put out earlier this year. There are a few youth teams running the Wild Bunch that I'm aware of, and those that stick to perfecting the core plays are doing very well. Those that decide to mix and match with other schemes, OTOH...
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Post by eickst on Sept 24, 2007 10:39:35 GMT -6
Hey, Ted, not to hijack a thread or anything, but what's the youngest team you've seen run your WB offense and be successful (with the core plays anyway).
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Post by phantom on Sept 24, 2007 11:20:11 GMT -6
Jim, although there's no excuse for insubordination, I believe that you created some of this by micromanaging. One of the many jobs that my boss hired me to do is coach the OL. He does not tell me how to do that job. He certainly would not tell me what stance and technique without discussing it with me.
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Post by brophy on Sept 24, 2007 11:35:25 GMT -6
Jim, although there's no excuse for insubordination, I believe that you created some of this by micromanaging. One of the many jobs that my boss hired me to do is coach the OL. He does not tell me how to do that job. He certainly would not tell me what stance and technique without discussing it with me. whoa whoa whoa... in all due respect....jim was trying to get this guy on board to his offensive scheme...."this coach" WASN'T going to teach it and didn't believe in it. It is hard to give someone autonomy when they aren't teaching what needs to be taught for the TEAM
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Sept 25, 2007 4:39:24 GMT -6
Hey, Ted, not to hijack a thread or anything, but what's the youngest team you've seen run your WB offense and be successful (with the core plays anyway). 8-9 is the youngest so far (state champs in Utah), but I'm sure I could get a subset going very well at age 7...a small subset. ;D ;D
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Post by casec11 on Sept 25, 2007 6:29:01 GMT -6
Ted, Wouldn't Your youth Wing -T would be a good intro into the WB for 7 year olds? There is some simmilar things
Jim, A coach who states "I wont teach it" to the head coach is asking to be let go... or put on some other duty that he will do. (it looks as if this is what you did) It may be a solution that works out because the coach now saves face...if you would have kicked him off, you would have made an enemy in the program and I have heard stories of that comming back around and bitting them in the @$$
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Post by coachjim on Sept 26, 2007 5:02:52 GMT -6
I try not to micromanage... my two DC's have autonomy, but when we were doing offense this guy was changing things... thats over now, thank god.
Regarding Ted's Offense: Simply brilliant. My kids picked it up in a week and took about five weeks to master. The first game I don't count because my QB broke his finger and the new kid at QB had only been doing it 3 days. Also, my squad has only twelve kids... some towns have 40. They play both sides of the ball. We lost 47-0 our first game.
The second game we played the 2005 champs. They had 7 shutouts coming into the game... we scored 4 TD's on them/250 yds on the ground. Our D gave up a lot of big plays. I had our DC's start teaching "boxing" for game three. We lost 42-24 in a very respectale/pretty game.
Game three: Failed five times to tie up the score, including a TD called back or holding, and a FF on the twelve yard line with 2 mins. left. One of the most dramatic youth games i've seen. We lost 8-0. Racked up 200 yards rushing.
With such a small team and 90% new kids, they are competitive against anyone. Can't ask for more. I expect to get a few wins... but if not, they look great trying. The jet sweep with only one stud, if he's fast... and a full team (with subs) is unstoppable. And very pretty to watch. Oppossing coaches, other coaches, parents, refs, and spectators have probably given me nearly fifty comliments already. We have scored more than the entire 2005 season, by game 3. It has turned around a team on the brink of extinction, the kids love it.
We are getting about 200 spectators a game, just to see them play.
Thanks to you guys and Ted. And a team with a heart of gold.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Sept 26, 2007 5:08:04 GMT -6
Ted, Wouldn't Your youth Wing -T would be a good intro into the WB for 7 year olds? There is some simmilar things Case: Yes, absolutely -- and given the Wild Bunch's Wing-T origins, this is no accident. You'll notice that the latest version of the Wild Bunch even includes the Down play...
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Post by coachjim on Sept 26, 2007 5:16:19 GMT -6
I just compiled my WB/TB stats (after 3 games):
TB:
Att.... Yds...... TD's: 30..... 420...... 4.
WB:
Att.... Yds...... TD's: 16..... 38....... 0 (had 4 during scrimmages.)
Working on getting ball to FB more, counters, and installed 3 step w/jetmo yesterday.
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Post by phantom on Sept 28, 2007 6:44:46 GMT -6
Jim, although there's no excuse for insubordination, I believe that you created some of this by micromanaging. One of the many jobs that my boss hired me to do is coach the OL. He does not tell me how to do that job. He certainly would not tell me what stance and technique without discussing it with me. whoa whoa whoa... in all due respect....jim was trying to get this guy on board to his offensive scheme...."this coach" WASN'T going to teach it and didn't believe in it. It is hard to give someone autonomy when they aren't teaching what needs to be taught for the TEAM Let me start by saying that, re-reading my post, it comes off as harsher than intended. I still think that this could have been avoided. The two things that Jim specified as problems dealt with stance and technique, not the system. A position coach needs to have a say in those things since he's the guy who will be teaching them.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 28, 2007 7:18:53 GMT -6
Nah, I got what you meant, I just get advice here; never take anything personal. In our WT, they downblock at angles. Heh. He wanted them all standing up and pushing them backward. Alas, no. Wrong offense and an obviously uneducated guess of WT. And telling. He's no longer on O and excels on D, where I shoulda just put him in the first place. Live and learn. To the two of their credits, our D has only allowed 2 TDs in 6 qtrs. So far so good. Looking for first win, this weekend. I'll advise.
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Post by phantom on Sept 28, 2007 9:17:23 GMT -6
Nah, I got what you meant, I just get advice here; never take anything personal. In our WT, they downblock at angles. Heh. He wanted them all standing up and pushing them backward. Alas, no. Wrong offense and an obviously uneducated guess of WT. And telling. He's no longer on O and excels on D, where I shoulda just put him in the first place. Live and learn. To the two of their credits, our D has only allowed 2 TDs in 6 qtrs. So far so good. Looking for first win, this weekend. I'll advise. I see. Yeah, it's tough to have an OL coach who doesn't know the offense and gets surly about it.Glad you were able to fix the situation. I know how hard it is to get coaches.
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Post by coachjim on Sept 30, 2007 2:40:28 GMT -6
Thanks Coach.
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