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Post by utchuckd on Dec 23, 2007 22:05:09 GMT -6
Anybody use a point system for your players to determine seniority or participation for the team? Knighter has a good version of it in the articles section, and I've seen one other version at a clinic.
What do you give points for and how do you implement it?
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 15:33:53 GMT -6
Here's what we do-
PRIDE POINT SYSTEM
Pride Points are awarded for all the things that players do that directly benefit their ability to perform and play on the football field for ARHS. Pride Points are awarded on a daily basis for commitment to being a Raven football player.
PRIDE POINTS ARE AWARDED AS FOLLOWS:
FOOTBALL RELATED
1. Daily workout in the weight room:
a. Winter, Spring = 1 pt
b. During Breaks = 2pt
2. Summer workouts (after school is out) = 1pt
3. Spring Ball Practice (approx. 14 practices) = 1pt per practice
4. Camp (5 Days) = 5pt per day
5. Summer Passing League = 2pt per day
6. Meeting with position coach in summer
(e.g. OL going over run plays on field) = 1pt per day
7. EW (extra workouts that are done above
what is expected from players during fall
camp, e.g. extra conditioning or lifting) = 1pt per EW
NON FOOTBALL RELATED
1. Involvement in a winter or spring sport = Automatic 50 points
(provided you finish the
season in good standing)
2. Power Lifting = 5 pt per meet
*Pride Points are designed to encourage individual players to become a better football player as well as build team chemistry. Therefore, no Pride Points will be awarded for programs outside of Riverside High School.
WHEN DO PRIDE POINTS START?
Immediately! We will keep track of all points accumulated by players on a daily basis. Pride Points will be posted in the weight room and updated Pride Points can always be checked on the weight room computer.
PRIDE POINTS WILL ALSO DETERMINE ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY IN VARSITY FOOTBALL GAMES
Each player will need to accumulate 100 Pride Points in order to play in a varsity football game next season.
THE RULES ARE AS FOLLOWS:
1. 100 Pride Points are needed to have the opportunity to participate in any of the Riverside Varsity Football games (on top of all WIAA standards).
2. Players will have to accumulate at least 50 Pride Points in Football related activities during the course of the off season, 15 of which have to come from summer workouts.
3. Players cannot use more than 50 Pride Points from other sports programs towards their 100 points needed to participate in football games. (e.g. a player would be awarded 50 Pride Points for wrestling, basketball, swimming, etc for their winter phase. Players would also be awarded 50 Pride Points for baseball, track, or soccer in their spring phase if they participate in those sports)
4. Any player not reaching 100 Pride Points will be allowed to practice with the team but will not be allowed to play in any varsity game until requirements are met.
5. No out of school athletic programs will count toward Pride Points.
6. Any player not meeting these requirements will not be able to play in a varsity game and will have to do EW (extra workouts) until these requirements are met.
PRIDE POINT STANDINGS WILL DETERMINE THE FOLLOWING:
1. The order in which we hand out gear for spring ball (helmets, shoulder pads, etc). The players with the most Pride Points get first choice of gear.
2. Issuing game uniforms. Pride Point standings will determine who gets first choice of jersey numbers.
3. The two players with the highest Pride Point totals after spring ball will have their Summer Camp paid for courtesy of the Gridiron Club.
EXAMPLE:
Joe Raven wrestles in the winter. In the spring, he plays baseball. He goes to every day of practice in spring ball and goes to camp. He also makes 25 days of the weight room in the summer.
TOTAL PRIDE POINTS ELIGIBILITY PRIDE POINTS
Wrestling = 50 pts Winter = 50 pts
Baseball = 50 pts
Spring Ball = 14 pts Spring Ball = 14 pts
Camp = 25 pts Camp = 25 pts
Summer = 25 pts Summer = 25 pts
Total Pride Points for Gear Issue and Uniform Checkout =164 Pride Points
Pride Points toward Varsity Eligibility (100 needed) =114 Pride Points
Joe Raven would have 164 Pride Points in the point standings for gear issue, jersey number selection, and camp. He would have 114 towards his 100 Pride Points needed to play (he only has 114 because only 50 points can come from other sports).
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Post by airman on Dec 28, 2007 15:49:15 GMT -6
i like the concept of the pride points.
however, what do you do with a senior which does no make the number of pride points?
for example, most schools in my area do not allow seniors to play jv and have no cut policy.
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Post by CVBears on Dec 28, 2007 16:01:00 GMT -6
what are the downfalls of a system like this? Does it ever create individuals rather than team mates?
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 16:41:09 GMT -6
A senior who does not get to 100 Pride Points is welcome to be a part of the program, but cannot play until he reaches 100 points. We had a senior this year not be eligible until week 7 of the season. He did extra workouts after every practice until he was eligible.
We haven't found that it creates individuals, but rather helps teammates keep each other accountable. For example, Player A sees that Player B is not on track to meet the pride points. In our experience Player A makes it a point to address Player B about his lack of work.
It also creates healthy competition between teammates and makes them push each other. Last year we had a group of kids battling to be first on the pride point list and so they were lifting twice a day at the school- these kids were also in winter and spring sports. It's just our way of making sure our athletes are doing something to help the team. I'm not sure you can create individuals when the ones being rewarded are those who are putting in the most time and working the hardest to help the team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2007 16:50:32 GMT -6
No offense guys..but didn't we have this discussion a few weeks ago, Calande's pride point system... edit---nevermind, i think that one got deleted ---carry on  Personally, I think this is an excellent example of a NCLB type dog and pony show. Trying to orderly quantify the "right thing". Unfortunately, we live in a day and age where this is actually becoming more and more necessary..and in that regard, I would say this is an excellent program. I would say however, that having kids lift twice a day-while playing other sports mind you-in pursuit of a "pride point championship"... isn't in their or the teams best interest. I love the commitment aspect, but I would have stepped in and used that moment to teach one of life's most valuable lessons...working smarter is better than harder. |
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Post by airman on Dec 28, 2007 17:13:28 GMT -6
A senior who does not get to 100 Pride Points is welcome to be a part of the program, but cannot play until he reaches 100 points. We had a senior this year not be eligible until week 7 of the season. He did extra workouts after every practice until he was eligible. We haven't found that it creates individuals, but rather helps teammates keep each other accountable. For example, Player A sees that Player B is not on track to meet the pride points. In our experience Player A makes it a point to address Player B about his lack of work. It also creates healthy competition between teammates and makes them push each other. Last year we had a group of kids battling to be first on the pride point list and so they were lifting twice a day at the school- these kids were also in winter and spring sports. It's just our way of making sure our athletes are doing something to help the team. I'm not sure you can create individuals when the ones being rewarded are those who are putting in the most time and working the hardest to help the team. Like I said, I like the concept. I just would make dang sure the parents knew what you were doing forwards, backwards and upside down. I just could see this backfiring when johnny senior, the school supers son, who is not that good anyway, does not make enough points. |
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 17:30:00 GMT -6
Well when our all-state Defensive Tackle had to miss the first two games of the season it became clear to most parents that this was something we were committed to. Just as a player has to have a certain number of practices before he can play, our guys have to have a certain number of points before they have the OPPORTUNITY to play varsity football. It drives me nuts that basketball and baseball coaches can cut kids for any reason and yet as football coaches, we worry about having expectations for kids. A kid who makes no offseason commitment in those other sports would never be part of the team. Why should it be any different for us. Especially in football, where I believe it is irresponsible to put a player on a varsity field until he has worked out enough to protect himself. We just don't want kids sitting around for 8 months and then showing up in August. That kid is not ready for varsity football.
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 28, 2007 17:37:52 GMT -6
Pride points is a fantastic system. Dont let any negative or lazy individual talk you out of it. The kids appreciate any method by which they can compete for playing time where "daddy ball" is kept out of the equation for example. Love to hear more about your pride point system as the new season arrives. I am always working on mine to make it user friendly and simple without diluting the talent part of the equation.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2007 17:41:47 GMT -6
Like I said, I like the concept. I just would make dang sure the parents knew what you were doing forwards, backwards and upside down. I just could see this backfiring when johnny senior, the school supers son, who is not that good anyway, does not make enough points. OR the opposite--when that kid who is the PRIDE POINT LEADER, but drops the ball 1 out 3 times, or misses his block with alarming regularity, runs around blocks, etc. I know the other pride point method that was discussed before had pride points included in playing time decisions. I thought that was the biggest flaw. This one doesn't ..but I would make that CLEAR to the parents and kids. Pride points may determine who WON'T play...but don't have anything to do with WHO plays. The other pride point system was inferior because it tried to mathmatically dictate playing time. |
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dlo
Sophomore Member
Posts: 128
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Post by dlo on Dec 28, 2007 18:02:04 GMT -6
Coach Paulson.....we toyed with the idea of doing something like this, but our AD squashed it for the following scenerio: What do you do with a kid that moves into the district late? So, what do you do?
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Post by phantom on Dec 28, 2007 18:28:32 GMT -6
Well when our all-state Defensive Tackle had to miss the first two games of the season it became clear to most parents that this was something we were committed to. Just as a player has to have a certain number of practices before he can play, our guys have to have a certain number of points before they have the OPPORTUNITY to play varsity football. It drives me nuts that basketball and baseball coaches can cut kids for any reason and yet as football coaches, we worry about having expectations for kids. A kid who makes no offseason commitment in those other sports would never be part of the team. Why should it be any different for us. Especially in football, where I believe it is irresponsible to put a player on a varsity field until he has worked out enough to protect himself. We just don't want kids sitting around for 8 months and then showing up in August. That kid is not ready for varsity football. Did you win those games? |
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 18:31:48 GMT -6
Being varsity eligible (100 points) does not make you a varsity player or guarantee any playing time. It simply makes you eligible to play in a varsity game. To answer the question about a kid that moves in late here's what we do- if the kid was here before spring ball he must get 50 points. If a kid shows up in August- he needs to have the 15 required summer workouts. So that kid would have the opportunity to make up workouts during 2-a-days. You cannot require a kid to have 100 points when he didn't have the opportunity. At the same time, we require some extra work so that our other kids know the new kid has done the extra work necessary to be a varsity player in our program.
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 18:32:22 GMT -6
We went 1-1 in those games.
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Post by phantom on Dec 28, 2007 19:05:03 GMT -6
What's the point behind this? I do understand what you're trying to do but, to me, the best players need to play. Sitting an all-state player for two games doesn't make much sense to me.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2007 19:16:03 GMT -6
cspaulson I really like your distinction between being eligible, and actually making varsity and playing. As I said, this is where the other PRIDE POINT system fell apart in my eyes...but I like this one so far.
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bigcroz
Junior Member
Go STAGS!!
Posts: 356
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Post by bigcroz on Dec 28, 2007 19:16:58 GMT -6
I like the Idea and am going to take a look at implimenting something similar.
The GOOD thing that will come from sitting the all state player is a risidual effect in the future. You will not have players slacking off, knowing that you already sat an All State guy for not having his points(making his workouts). Very good example set. IMO
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2007 19:21:41 GMT -6
What's the point behind this? I do understand what you're trying to do but, to me, the best players need to play. Sitting an all-state player for two games doesn't make much sense to me. I have to disagree with you on this phantom. While i disagree with using pride points to dictate any PLAYING time, I would agree with having to achieve a bare minimum in order to be "eligible" to play. cspaulson has made it clear that the pride points can't "get" you playing time, so the best players play....once they demonstrate the commitment to the team. I like so far |
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Post by superpower on Dec 28, 2007 19:22:11 GMT -6
We had an all-league OL for the past two years who wouldn't have gotten the pride points. He was a one sport athlete who lives and works on the farm all summer long. If we had a system like this, he wouldn't have played football. In a small school such as ours, we can't afford to lose kids. We need all of them that we can get. And some kids are able to make significant contributions to the team without doing all the other things that we would love to have them involved in.
While I understand and respect what coaches are trying to accomplish with this, I choose not do use it because I can't afford to lose good kids.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2007 19:41:57 GMT -6
superpower---yeah...you are right, programs like these aren't for EVERY school, but I do think this one would be good for most. Also, you can always agument your pride points to fit your needs.
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Post by CVBears on Dec 28, 2007 19:43:24 GMT -6
couldn't you somehow put in a points based system for working on the farm? I don't know about working at McD's is going to qualify, but working on the farm is a tough one and it isn't like he is slacking off.
Then again, this could be a slippery slope. just trying to throw out some ideas...
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 28, 2007 20:16:26 GMT -6
I once used this type of pride point system. Used it for three years at one school before discarding it. Then implemented it at another school only to discard it after 2 years. We were very accurate in our record keeping. Pretty much the same way that it is being used by cspaulson. What we discovered is that we (coaches) were losing the human touch. We manage our plays, our equipment, our strategies, etc. I've come to the decision that managing people is much different than leading them.
What I have found is that having a one on one with a kid who isn't doing his share of the load is much more personal than putting a kid's name on a chart and showing how he measures up to the rest of the kids. The kid might have a legit reason for not putting in off-season time. Every kid has a story and might be doing the best he can. Our job is to keep the hope alive.
We have some kids who HAVE to work for $, or they will never have an opportunity to play FB in the fall. I found that a set system like the one's described don't take into account some of the real life circumstances that kids live from day to day.
Eventually, we started to fudge on our system to take care of these situations - to be fair to those who couldn't function the way we wanted them to within our point system during the off-season. Then, this fudging didn't seem fair to those who were doing the "right things."
After a lot of discussion, reflection, research, and just looking at the guy in the mirror; I've decided that this point system is much too rigid and lacks the type of interactions that are necessary to forge the types of relationships that truly lead young people.
Also, what do you do with the kid who shows up right before the season begins but has told you that he has been working hard with his former H.S. program? Do you count this or do you make him do more to be "equal" with the established guys?
This is not a knock on the system. How long have you been using it? Sometimes, policies are easy to stand behind because the thinking has been eliminated. Just a thought.
Would love to hear how this system is working in 3-4 years.
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 20:39:49 GMT -6
We too have kids that because of family situations HAVE to work everyday. However, our weight room is open before and after school. I think the WORST thing you could do for a disadvantaged kid is to lower the expectations for him. What kind of lesson are you teaching a kid that because he has to be more responsible in one aspect of his life that he can be less responsible in the other. We are in the business of teaching kids life lessons. A kid who comes from a disadvantaged background is not going to have lower expectations when he enters the "real world". We will not lower the expectations either. Now to be fair- we have had some very extenuating circumstances that we have sat down with the athlete and made a compromise, but this is a VERY unique situation. We have found that for the most part, kids do what you expect them to do. I wouldn't worry too much about a kid who absolutely refuses to attempt to meet the expectations. He probably wouldn't have gotten much out of your program, and you probably wouldn't have gotten much out of him. We have done this for 3 years now and we have fewer and fewer kids not qualify each year.
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 20:41:22 GMT -6
Phantom- what possible good would come from playing an all-state player when he didn't meet the expectations that the rest of his team did? What kind of lesson does that teach our athletes?
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 20:53:06 GMT -6
Keep in mind- it has also helped our case that the two athletes who had the highest Pride Point totals the first two years of the system are now playing in the Pac-10 and Big Sky.
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Post by brophy on Dec 28, 2007 20:59:52 GMT -6
cap,
I was not a fan of of the bean counting, but your system really makes sense and would be easy to manage. Thanks for sharing, that is a really well thought out concept, coach
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 28, 2007 22:19:24 GMT -6
how healthy are the numbers in your program?
Do you see a drop of athletes from 9th to 12th grade and in between?
In other words, how large is your school and how many do you have out for FB?
What are the two major goals of your FB program?
just wondering because you seem to be defending your system (same one I once used) quite a bit.
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Post by tog on Dec 28, 2007 22:29:20 GMT -6
we simply play the best players
and take care of the ones that deserve it
no favorites
the kids that bust their ass
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 28, 2007 23:34:33 GMT -6
We have an enrollment of about 1300. We have just over 100 in the program. We do have a drop of from 9th to 12th, but less than we did before this system. I think most programs have more 9th graders than 12th graders. I don't believe that we are running any kids out of the program.
The purpose of this system is to make sure our kids are doing something in the offseason instead of sitting around. It is really geared toward those kids who would otherwise do nothing. If you look at how easy it would be to make as a relatively hard working high school athlete, it's not that big of a deal. If a kid plays basketball (50 points), goes to spring ball (14 points), and attends summer camp (25 points), that puts him at 89 points. Now, we require 15 summer workouts- so really the kid needs to be in the weightroom 15 times during the summer. I don't think anyone on this board thinks that is asking too much. Now, a kid who does not play another sport and blows off spring ball obviously better have his butt in the weight room every day. Choices, choices, choices.
Two major goals of our FB program- Provide positive, life-long memories for those athletes involved and be the best team we can be. To us, this means teaching athletes what commitment means and measuring our performance against our potential.
And tog- we also play the best players. I never suggested we didn't. We simply ask that they make an off season commitment to the football program. To us, not making a commitment in the off season is like not showing up to practice. You are not preparing yourself the way you should be.
To make it clear- I am not telling anyone they should do this. The original poster asked if anyone had a system and I posted ours. It works for us, it may not work for you. Part of us starting this program came out of our frustration about the fact that we do not have a coach running the weight lifting classes at our school. We have a basketball/track guy who was not addressing the needs of our kids.
The system has worked for us and we do have provisions for new kids like I posted before. Just like your offensive/defensive scheme, this is something that we have examined and tweaked each year that we continue to believe in for us.
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 29, 2007 0:39:57 GMT -6
Do you see that the point counting could be a negative system?
In other words, kids who are working their butts off towards something else - let's say music or academics to get themselves prepped for a professional or musical career (possibly a scholarship in one of these related areas). These types of kids could be penalized if they don't reach your 100 point plateau.
Chances are, these types of kids might not be your best players but when one does come along - a really well rounded kid with goals that go way beyond football - who is also a superior athlete. Do you really sit him until he comes up to par with the others?
This is an extreme example but not improbable - we have three in our program who would never see the varsity field on your team due to not enough points - This is part of the reason we have left this system and work with our kids one on one. The Great John Wooden said that the easiest way to treat players unfairly is to treat them all the same.
Our weight room numbers are excellent and there is a price to pay when a player shows up out of shape - He get's his fanny kicked by the ones who are in shape - It's called a natural consequence.
Just food for thought
Not attacking your system as it seems to be working for you and you are only sharing.
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