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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 29, 2007 0:50:35 GMT -6
I think it is important to recognize that not all situations/environments are the same.
I know the last school I was at..and in fact any school I can think of down here in South LA that isn't a complete joke are all similar. Mandatory Winter Lifting or 2nd sport. Mandatory Spring ball unless with another sport. You probably have to make 20 summer sessions, maybe more. Culturally speaking, you won't catch any flack if you say "oh, bobby has to do all of this to play for us"
I guess not all situations are like that, and things like this are necessary.
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 29, 2007 1:14:47 GMT -6
Isn't a point system just another way of trying to quantify who is "the best"?
One coach watches practice and "knows" who is the best. Another coach uses a point system, evaluating what he/his staff thinks are qualities of "the best" and use that to determine who is the best. In my mind, there is no difference. Both ways have pluses and minuses, so you just go with what you think is right, because neither is really wrong. As long as your judgment calls or point systems have flexibility, your way is always the right way.
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Post by utchuckd on Dec 29, 2007 1:17:24 GMT -6
Wow, I had pretty much given up on this thread. First, sorry if this duplicates another recent thread, I haven't been on the board much lately. I did a search but didn't come up with much so that's why I started it. The original concept I saw for this came from a clinic a couple of years ago. A coach said he used a point system for certain seniority purposes. He mentioned equipment checkout and uniform numbers. So in order of highest to lowest points the kids got to pick their equipment and numbers, and I was wondering what else it could be used for. I never thought of tying it in to their eligibility. That's a very interesting concept and one I think we may look into more deeply.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 29, 2007 2:23:06 GMT -6
Isn't a point system just another way of trying to quantify who is "the best"? One coach watches practice and "knows" who is the best. Another coach uses a point system, evaluating what he/his staff thinks are qualities of "the best" and use that to determine who is the best. In my mind, there is no difference. Both ways have pluses and minuses, so you just go with what you think is right, because neither is really wrong. As long as your judgment calls or point systems have flexibility, your way is always the right way. It depends on what you are evaluating. In this case, cspaulson is using his system to provide quantitative measurement of team involvment which will be used to A) DETERMINE initial eligibility, and B) pecking order for "perks" I dont think cspaulsons version of points is designed to determine who the "best" players are.
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Post by cspaulson on Dec 29, 2007 9:34:55 GMT -6
touchdowng- all great points. We would love to not have this system to tell you the truth. It would be far easier to just have kids who all wanted to be working out. Here was our situation when we implemented it- The program was coming off of consecutive 4 win seasons after having gone winless for three years in a row. We had a talented group of seniors who did nothing to get themselves ready in the offseason, but still played because the juniors behind them were awful. So they showed up in August out of shape, and didn't get their butts kicked because of it. There was a sense of entitlement for kids who had done nothing to earn it except be better than the low talent kid behind them. We were looking for a way to get these returning starters to work and go beyond this culture of mediocrity that had been established at the school.
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 29, 2007 10:33:08 GMT -6
Then it sounds like a great catalyst that helped get your program on track. Just don't let it run your program or take the place of your ability to provide the necessary leadership to guide your kids into adulthood. Life really isn't as black and white as many educators/coaches want to portray it for their kids.
I learned the year round point system from a track coach. He used it for lettering his track athletes. So many points to earn a letter. Each year the points are erased and an athlete must start over. Each year the point total became bigger so that the kids would be expected to do MORE as they moved through the program. He used that system from 1985 up until he retired about two years ago.
He also left a clause in his lettering contract that he could letter an athlete who met undisclosed criteria. The criteria would be between the athlete and the coach. Period. This is his power as the HC.
He would letter that 4th year senior - who had no chance of lettering otherwise - that had demonstrated an IN-season commitment but perhaps lacked talent.
He would letter that certain kid who came from the home where there might not have been a stable income and missing out on off-season stuff might not have been a choice for the athlete but rather a decision made on circumstances.
There were about 2-4 kids each year who earned their letter on a team that had over 125 track athletes (girls and boys) on it from his secret criteria. Sometimes none. His decision making was only as good as the information he was able to gather. And, in my opinion, created the weakness of his system.
He had his system (provided the integrity for all to see - and we all know that window dressing is important) and infused some flexibility into it because he knew that his system could penalize some if he stuck to it 100%. This is true about any system.
There are probably more snags in these types of point systems that we'll ever know.
One last thought on this - and why we let the system go - when a player got penalized and did not earn his letter because of a mitigating circumstance, the point system did not take care of those kids. We would make a staff decision to letter the athlete or not based on what we knew about the situation. We often wondered how many kids didn't letter only because we did not know about their personal situations. Not everyone is willing to tell others about their personal stories. I often wonder how many kids didn't even try out for our program because they felt there was no hope of succeeding.
Not sure how long you and your staff have been coaching but we've been doing this for over two decades, some of our coaches are over 30 years. The things you hear after a player has graduated - things we had no clue about.
Heard about one kid (a year, or two after he graduated) who decided to not turn out his SENIOR year because he knew that he would not letter (based on our system). He knew we had off-season criteria and he knew that he would not be able to live up to the system.
He quietly went his own direction and we figured he had senioritis (or just didn't want to compete for playing time) and just decided to do his own thing. He wasn't close to many kids but was a really good kid - the type that could fall through the cracks because nobody notices him.
He would have provided some depth on our O and D line but we moved on. This is what we do in football, right?
I was supervising a basketball game two years after and he walks into the gym. So I ask him, why didn't you play your SENIOR YEAR?
He said it didn't seem worth it to play since he knew he couldn't letter. He couldn't do all of the off-season stuff and knew he would be outa shape. The way he understood our point system, he "knew" that he would not be able to get his letterman jacket which was his goal since coming to our school midway through his sophomore year.
What had happened is that his Granddad had suddenly died from a heart attack. He lived with his grandparents because his parents were divorced. Mom was a crack addict (probably in jail but definitely out of state) and Dad had not been in the picture for pretty much his entire life. Nick needed to be at home to help take care of his grandma and had to take on a job. He said he was embarassed about his whole situation. This is why he never told anybody.
I often wonder how many other "stories" there are out there that none of us know about. Kids are funny, what motivates them maybe so different than what motivates us. One of my best FB players EVER told me one day that the only reason he plays sports (he did something EVERY season) was because life was so bad at home that for 3 hours he could escape everything. He didn't even like FB that much but at least he didn't have to hear his parents battling about such stupid things on a daily basis.
We (coaches) are in an incredible position to help young people. Keep up the good work!
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Post by chadp56 on Dec 29, 2007 13:25:07 GMT -6
I agree with one comment that this system is not for all schools. In our school, some years it is has been a challenge to get enough kids out to field a team. We are a small (475 in 9-12), rural, somewhat poor school where there are lots of challenges to getting kids out.
With that being said, I implemented a less intense type of reward system this year to encourage many of the same things. We do two things now, one is off-season helmet stickers for things like grades, sports participation, etc. This is a small reward for varsity players, though some of them really get into those little stickers.
I also started a "Champions Club" for those who made 75% or more of the off-season workouts (both lifting, passing league, and camps). Those who made the club got invited to a special dinner, got a special t-shirt, and got their equipment first. I also said that they would start on something (might just be on KR, but that is more than some would start on). I also put their picture in a new media guide I created and made special mention of them at the banquet. I couldn't go higher than 75% because there are so many conflicts with summer baseball, basketball camps, etc.
Last year was the first year of this, it will be interesting to see if I have more people strive for these recognitions. If I were at a big school rich in football tradition, I'd probably be more demanding.
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clloyd
Sophomore Member
Posts: 210
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Post by clloyd on Dec 31, 2007 15:08:18 GMT -6
Just to add an idea, we are going to a similar point system. The points will not dictate whether a player can play or not, but we will reward the top point totals with free gear, paid camp, take the top 8 kids paintballing something like that. One thing that I didn't read at all which suprised me was the discussion about academics. I came up with the idea that part of their point total will be their GPA for each Marking Period. We work off of a 100 point grading system so if a player gets a 93 gpa for marking period 1 then they get 93 points. This encourages good work in the classroom aswell.
I just thought I would throw that Idea out there.
Great post good discussion. We also award points for attending the end of the year banquet, program banquet, etc.
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 31, 2007 15:36:14 GMT -6
clloyd
think your application is really a positive one
I like the positive incentives. It tells kids what you and your program are about and rewards time and effort without penalizing anybody.
Kids will now put time in because they want to - and will be motivated to do so, not because they're looking over their shoulders.
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Post by coachcalande on Dec 31, 2007 16:35:19 GMT -6
Just to add an idea, we are going to a similar point system. The points will not dictate whether a player can play or not, but we will reward the top point totals with free gear, paid camp, take the top 8 kids paintballing something like that. One thing that I didn't read at all which suprised me was the discussion about academics. I came up with the idea that part of their point total will be their GPA for each Marking Period. We work off of a 100 point grading system so if a player gets a 93 gpa for marking period 1 then they get 93 points. This encourages good work in the classroom aswell. I just thought I would throw that Idea out there. Great post good discussion. We also award points for attending the end of the year banquet, program banquet, etc. from Knighters manual I used gpa x 10 for point total.
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Post by bcurrier on Jan 3, 2008 3:53:18 GMT -6
As I prepare to apply for a head coaching position, I have given significant thought to both the need for and the design of such a system. I agree with the concerns that have been brought up about tying point totals to playing time. I prefer a system that provides incentives for players to do what's necessary to accumulate points. Some possible incentives have already been suggested. Incentives I've considered include: name plates to go on the back of jerseys of players who meet the standards set (another team in our conference does this); recognition in the printed game program; free articles of clothing with program logos/name; eligibility to be considered for position as a captain; first in line for equipment issue, including new equipment. What are some other incentives that coaches currently use or are considering?
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