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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 21:17:33 GMT -6
terrell owens is not human, that is a bad example......lol
we can come up with a dozen modalities for dealing with 'difficult players', but ultimately, it is going to come down to this particular coach ASSERTING HIS AUTHORITY on the practice field....in whatever way he feels is 'his' way.
No other staff member can give you juice / respect from your subordinates - you have to earn that.
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 21:18:53 GMT -6
No one said we dont teach them why their actions are wrong, we just teach them that not only are they wrong, BUT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. I am not sure if you are missing that point air or just looking to extend this thread lol. heres an example to make it clear kid forgets his chin strap...he "borrows" it from another kid ... your way "thats wrong, give it back"...kid shrugs and gives it back my way "thats wrong, give it back and hit the hill, you got 10. we take stealing very seriously around here- you steal from your teammates again and youre off the team, clear?" - kid hits the hill, NO KID ON THE TEAM EVER TAKES ANOTHER CHIN STRAP OR ANY OTHER PIECE OF GEAR. now, whats the kid learn? a) stealing is wrong, even if he calls it "borrowing" when he gets caught b) stealing carries a consequence c) coach isnt playing d)the other kids wont borrow squat thats about as simple as I can put it. what you going to do when the kid says, i did not steal it? you are dealing with children, who have not developed a brain yet. you are a credit to your program and i am sure this works well with jr type athletes. this approach works well in the marine corps as well. however, in todays fubar world, kids want some one to lead them to show them not to browbeat them. they run the hill 10 times. nwo contrast that with going home, wirtting 500 words on why stealing is not is not tolerated, having their parent sign it and bringing it back and reading it to the team during warmup. failure to do this means no play. they have actually had to think about what they are doing. they have learned. if I get a real mouthy kid, I will go tell him to stand by the goalposts and I will deal with him in about 15 min. kid gets to stand there and he does not get to practice.
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 21:22:01 GMT -6
I dont' think this approach will work with college student athletes....because they transfer next semester and play for your rival so this is the attitude that developed Terrell Owens...the whole "we dont want to lose this guy" approach to handling discipline. well one, the nfl is a players league. it is not high school. it is really hard to discipline in the nfl do to the union protection players are given. the nfl is also pay for play so yes teams will look the other way. if I am making 6 mill as a caoch and I want to keep my job in the nfl, I better learn to look the other way. look at the giant. tom couhlin(sp) was such as hard ass in his first few years that players left via FA adn trades. he has mellowed a lot and the team is doing much better.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 21:24:46 GMT -6
bellies curb behavior. Like parenting or teaching a class you must be consistent and you must mean what you say and say what you mean while you show them you care. Just what I believe. I have yet to meet the kid who enjoys bellies and can do them all day. I have yet to find teaching discipline to be a waste of any coaches time. That just sounds sort of copoutish...kinda...and i have yet to meet any kid who cant get in better shape....somehow. shoot, we use bellies as a deterrant for all kinds of things...i might just bend over and pick up a water bottle, or peice of tape that was left on the field and say "shoot, this has to be worth 100 yards of bellies" and I have kids runnign over to me "no coach, thats mine, ill take that, ill get all the trash up...its all mine" we have the kids label their gear with a number...if i find their gear, identifiable by their number, they have bellies...if i find gear with no number, THEY ALL HAVE BELLIES. one day, after I had instructed them all to label their gear, i did a surprise helmet check...three boys out of 60 hadnt followed the intruction and each had 3 hills every day until it was labeled. I saw at the end of practice a captain writing numbers on EVERYONES helmets and knee pads. taking care of each other...thats what its all about. but what have they learned? they have learned to fear their coach. they have not learned why it is important. they have just learned to do it. mine is not to question to but to do or die. when kid screws up I want him to learn why and how not to do it again. that stuff might work with jr kids but what you going to do when a kid say {censored} you and walks off the team because you have just given him a bizillion yds of bellies. you have just lost a player. i used to think chasing away the bad ones would solve my problems and it did not. my father yelled at me all the time when I screwed up. I learned to fear my father. my grandfather taught me how not to screw up by educating me on things. i want to be like my grandfather. oh and I survived bootcap at paris island. they teach discipline through fear, they also get a lot of people killed because they can not think for themselves. I agree discipline is some thing you do for some body not to some body. kids on the other hand see you as doing it to them. teach them to understand the how and why and you do not have to punish them. btw, thats funny that you posted that. My first year at one school I coached at... the lack of discipline was the major focus. the team HAD NEVER HAD A WINNING SEASON ever...never ever...in fact, theyd never won more than 2 games in a season. We started with 29 kids. Poor work ethic, poor attendance at practice, late to come out, late to get physicals, etc...no discipline until we got there... We finished with 15. We won 4 games. We had 25 disciplined kids the next year. We had the schools first ever winning season. see my point? One of the "stars" did in fact say "fu$% you" and walk off the field when I told him that he owed me a bunch of Bellies for missing frosh camp...later his Dad brough him back and wanted him reinstated...I said "Sure, when he completes his bellies, plus the additional bellies hes now earned since he a) cursed at me and b) skipped the last two days of practice"...The kid didnt come back. He was a cancer and had a losing attitude that didnt fit what we were trying to do. His last words, and this really sums it up "good luck without me". I can give you lots of examples where this kind of discipline works and i can give you an example of the absence of discipline not working for me when i didnt care enough to discipline a boy who needed it. He needed it because he lacked it.
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 21:29:47 GMT -6
don't pat yourself too hard on the back there...
I think what airman and I are trying to point out is.....
When appointed leaders give directives of "Obey ME", with adult-minded individuals it promotes distrust and rebellion because it comes off as a power trip and feigns superiority / dominance over the "subordinates". Adult pride would be foolish to bow to anyone who grabs a title and starts pushing weight around.
By enforcing the PLEASE AUTHORITY rule, it creates a caste system of those that suck up to the (coach) and his 'pets' get the preferential treatment, because they at least don't show any outward rejection of the power thrust. Others who tow the line, but don't try so hard to please the coach, can be seen (by comparison) as being disrespectful, because they are not paying enough 'tribute' to the authority figure.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 21:36:16 GMT -6
No one said we dont teach them why their actions are wrong, we just teach them that not only are they wrong, BUT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. I am not sure if you are missing that point air or just looking to extend this thread lol. heres an example to make it clear kid forgets his chin strap...he "borrows" it from another kid ... your way "thats wrong, give it back"...kid shrugs and gives it back my way "thats wrong, give it back and hit the hill, you got 10. we take stealing very seriously around here- you steal from your teammates again and youre off the team, clear?" - kid hits the hill, NO KID ON THE TEAM EVER TAKES ANOTHER CHIN STRAP OR ANY OTHER PIECE OF GEAR. now, whats the kid learn? a) stealing is wrong, even if he calls it "borrowing" when he gets caught b) stealing carries a consequence c) coach isnt playing d)the other kids wont borrow squat thats about as simple as I can put it. what you going to do when the kid says, i did not steal it? you are dealing with children, who have not developed a brain yet. you are a credit to your program and i am sure this works well with jr type athletes. this approach works well in the marine corps as well. however, in todays fubar world, kids want some one to lead them to show them not to browbeat them. they run the hill 10 times. nwo contrast that with going home, wirtting 500 words on why stealing is not is not tolerated, having their parent sign it and bringing it back and reading it to the team during warmup. failure to do this means no play. they have actually had to think about what they are doing. they have learned. if I get a real mouthy kid, I will go tell him to stand by the goalposts and I will deal with him in about 15 min. kid gets to stand there and he does not get to practice. right your kid gets the same message as mine gets..your not tolerating the behavior...but as a football coach i want my guys conditioning not standing in the shade of the goal post...they might be dumb, but they are gonna be in shape lol. btw, i have used the essays in gym class "why its not ok for me to complain about who is on my team" or whatever...i get what youre trying to do. I have no problem with it. at least its a consequence.
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 21:40:21 GMT -6
so discipline for you is physcial punishment? well I would love you. you give me bellies tell the cows come home. I ran my first marathon at age 15. you could run me for ever and I would just simle. infact, I would bait you because I knew how to push your buttons. now take away my chance to play, i will think differently. i went to the marine corps being able to do 150 pushups, you think drop and give me 50 really meant anything. I simled the whole time.
to me discipline is pride in what you do. there is a gate at our football field. the gate closes at 2:30. school gets out at 2 pm. you have 30 minutes to chose what you want to do.
those not on the field at 2:30 do not get to practice. no practice no play. very simple concept. no physical punishment. just consequence. no pride in being on time, no play. all it takes is once. have I lost control, no. raised my voice, no.
see I am a frosty westering follower. frosty is the nicest man you would every want to meet. never swore in his life, never speaks a bad word. he taught me how to teach the game of football in a positive way. make me feel good about myself adn I will produce beyond your expectations.
you should really get his videos goal setting for the double win and making the big time where you are.
how many of your kids actually come up and hug you after the game? how many times do you tell them you love them?
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 22:00:36 GMT -6
so discipline for you is physcial punishment? well I would love you. you give me bellies tell the cows come home. I ran my first marathon at age 15. you could run me for ever and I would just simle. infact, I would bait you because I knew how to push your buttons. now take away my chance to play, i will think differently. i went to the marine corps being able to do 150 pushups, you think drop and give me 50 really meant anything. I simled the whole time. to me discipline is pride in what you do. there is a gate at our football field. the gate closes at 2:30. school gets out at 2 pm. you have 30 minutes to chose what you want to do. those not on the field at 2:30 do not get to practice. no practice no play. very simple concept. no physical punishment. just consequence. no pride in being on time, no play. all it takes is once. have I lost control, no. raised my voice, no. see I am a frosty westering follower. frosty is the nicest man you would every want to meet. never swore in his life, never speaks a bad word. he taught me how to teach the game of football in a positive way. make me feel good about myself adn I will produce beyond your expectations. you should really get his videos goal setting for the double win and making the big time where you are. how many of your kids actually come up and hug you after the game? how many times do you tell them you love them? I hear ya, here again you are missing the point. If I had to make an example out of someone I would however if they didnt get the message from the conditioning end of things Id simply have to assume that they didnt want to be on the team and dismiss them as nothing more than a distraction. I maintain that even if you were a marathon kid I could put enough power/strength consequences on you that youd feel the effects. If the consequences arent a deterrent you need better deterrants. Our policies state that first offenses are delt with by the use of extra credit or extra conditioning. we also use loss of playing time. if that doesnt work the player is dismissed.playing time alone isnt enough of a deterrant because some kids are subs that dont play much anyhow. I believe that cancers grow and spread. a kid who "pushes buttons" and disrupts practice is a cancer. I am not trying to force feed my way to you, just standing by what I belive in as you try to poke holes in it. It works for me. My way is obviously effective as we have 60 kids in two grade levels out for football. to date we had none quit do to harsh or unfair treatment though we have booted one for missing too many practices (he ran several hundred yards of bellies was but was not able to complete all of them...he will come out for the team again next year. we talk about it daily in the hallways). I have also removed 4 for breach of contract with their academic performance. two weeks on the inelligibilty list and you cant play anymore.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 22:19:51 GMT -6
so this is the attitude that developed Terrell Owens...the whole "we dont want to lose this guy" approach to handling discipline. well one, the nfl is a players league. it is not high school. it is really hard to discipline in the nfl do to the union protection players are given. the nfl is also pay for play so yes teams will look the other way. if I am making 6 mill as a caoch and I want to keep my job in the nfl, I better learn to look the other way. look at the giant. tom couhlin(sp) was such as hard {censored} in his first few years that players left via FA adn trades. he has mellowed a lot and the team is doing much better. my guess, alot of coaches failed TO well before he got to the NFL, much like alot of guys failed Dexter Manley. We just played a team who had a super talented back..his first carry went 99 yards for a td...the kid was so athletic that he still had the juice to do a full flip in the endzone...the coach sat the kid the rest of the first half for his excessive celebration. the kid knew the coaches expectations, broke the rule and sat. I saw the team doing some updowns at half time...wonder if that was part of the deal. not sure. I applaud coaches that try to teach sportsmanship to the showboater and gloater types. by the way, im a huge TO fan as far as his talents go...i just would like him to put a gag order on himself and just play the game. i once traded a first, second and third round draft choice for him when he was a rookie...(yes fantasy football)
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 22:23:25 GMT -6
actually , now that manley was brought up...i guess none of his coaches made him write essays huh?...or maybe he just paid someone else to write them? ...ever happened to you air? ever find out that someone else wrote a players essay?
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Post by coachjd on Oct 28, 2006 6:25:11 GMT -6
my comment has nothing to with YOU coaching JH kids. My comment was directed as kids at different ages will handle different types of discipline in different ways. I have been a college player and have made college players do up downs back and forth on a field and IMO it was a waist of time. I know that a 14 year old is going to have a different opinion that a 16, or 21 year old on how they are disciplined. yes, we all crave structure, but it will be preceived differently by different age groups.
You can think what you like Coach Calande, but at no time have I ever looked down a youth coach or JH coach. I respect all coaches for the time they put into working with kids in this great game of football. I chuckle any time a coach has do defend the age level they are coaching at.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 28, 2006 7:25:29 GMT -6
no problem jd, I have coached varsity kids (volleyball) and they HATE being disciplined as much as any youth or middle school kid. Just my experience. In fact, i would say the senior athlete finds it more embarassing to have to do pushups, run bleechers, hills etc than a 12 year old. then again, it depends on the reasons and the kid and coaches involved. again just my experience. i also found that the hs kids that had not been disciplined in the past needed it a whole lot more. I suppose all of our experiences are unique in some ways and I am just sharing mine. I just wanted to be clear that "bellies" were not something for a youth coach ...they certainly worked for Central Bucks west...I am assuming that they are used or have been used at North Penn as well. I am not sure though. I know this, each coach has to find something they believe in, hang their hat on it...not much different than choosing a system of offense or defense really, you need a system for instilling discipline...otherwise chaos could ensue.
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Post by coachorr on Oct 28, 2006 16:50:40 GMT -6
I think you have to build relationship-capital with each player. The quickest way is through the knowledge of the coach. Some coaches try to build this by talking about how many games they have won or where they played college ball. This in my mind is irrelevant in most kids' minds.
I have spent a long time developing my approach to constructive criticism in an effort to demonstrate that I am a knowledgeable and logical person who is going to make each player better. I personally feel that blowing up on a kid should be saved for important key moments and I will handle small mistakes and even some disciplinary/disrespect issues through calm and cool tactics that provide solutions and never make it personal.
Remember, few people want to do bad and just telling someone that they are no good helps no one. Every coaching point should be part of a solution.
I begin first with my approach and I will handle to two ways. If I am watching an athlete perform an activity that needs objective criticism, like blocking for example, I will correct right away and it always starts with a positive and never transition into the criticism (solution) with the word "but" and I will make sure that there is a clear expectation.
"Way to get off the ball, 'now' let's finish the block by bringing our feet on contact and rolling our hips".
I will also admire positive behavior through modeling:
"Way to get off the ball, you brought your feet to the party and finished the block". Then I turn to the team and say, "Did you guys see that?" "That was just what we want". Then I will ask the player to do it again and ask everyone to watch, "I want you to do it again, now everyone watch this". "That was a great job".
If a player makes a mistake that is obvious to you and the player, I like to have the player solve it by asking open ended questions. In my mind, I have taught the player so well, he himself should be able to give me a logical answer. "Can you tell me what happened on that play?" Then the player might say (hopefully exactly what he has been taught). "Coach, I did not cut penetration." Then I say, "Good, and how can you prevent that from happening again?" Player, "I need to get my head across aim at his hip and finish him down line".
If the player can't do it, or doesn't know, it is up to me the coach to make him better through repetition. Moreover, if a kid is not getting it, rather than embarrass him I need to talk to him one on one and outline what the expectations are and try to help him through more drills and/or sometimes I will think of a way to describe what I want in another way.
If the player is a starter who cannot do it, then it is my fault, because I either have the wrong kid in or I am asking him to do too much. That responsibility falls directly on my shoulders, the worst thing a leader can be is indecisive. Pansies don't make good coaches.
If players are not flying around in the drills and jogging back to the huddle and sprining to volunteer, I line them up on the line and make them run a 10 to 40 yard sprint up and back. If they don't give me an "A" effort on the sprint I make them run some more. If they continue to loaf around practice, the up and back continues until I have had the satisfaction that they have actually done something worth something. One time they jumped off sides a second time during a drill, they ran about 20 40's. Guess what, they don't run much anymore, as they understand the expectations.
If he is defiant, try to calm him down and explain himself, if the kid cannot respect the authority of the coach, then he is gone. The problem with keeping cancerous players around is that they destroy the body of the team.
If your demeanor is one of calmness and sincerity that always demands a high expectation, then the kid can do nothing but respect you in the end. What's more, the one time you do fly off the handle, they know you mean it and when they see you get excited in the game (positively) they know it is important.
"Never let your emotions run too high or too low, as both will interfere with the success of the task at hand".
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Post by mitch on Oct 30, 2006 8:10:46 GMT -6
I find it very disappointing to see that the new theories of disciplining a child has bled over onto the football field. Putting a kid in "timeout" underneath the goalpost ?? C'mon man, you have to be able to see that this new age discipline is not working in the classroom and it won't work on the field. Football is the last bastion of discipline in our society, and it will be a tragedy if we let it erode there as well.
BTW, I do not condone or us mindlessly screaming, physical abuse, belittling in front of peers, etc. for discipine, nor do I believe anyone on this thread is arguing for that. I believe there is a time for everything. Different people and different situations call for positive AND negative punishment.
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Post by coachorr on Oct 30, 2006 21:15:21 GMT -6
My main theory is that no one wants to be criticized, but everyone wants to improve and do the right thing.
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Post by brophy on Oct 30, 2006 21:31:00 GMT -6
My main theory is that no one wants to be criticized, but everyone wants to improve and do the right thing. I'd buy that for a dollar.....however, no one really achieves greatness without pressure....pressure to succeed. Put someone in an uncomfortable situation to FORCE change. The more I think about this particular example, the more I believe, it ALL ultimately comes down to the COACH (standing up for himself). To cower and look for the easy way out, would set the wrong example and be a disservice to this athlete. Would this quarterback act the same way to the OC or HC? The answer lies in what THIS PARTICULAR coach does to STEP UP and become a leader of men. How do you lead men? There are a number of ways, but respect is always the bottom line. If this player chooses not to, THIS COACH has to stone up and stand up for himself and his position on the staff. What would you do with an employee of yours that takes a disdainful tone with you as their supervisor? How is this any different?
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Post by airman on Oct 30, 2006 21:42:50 GMT -6
I find it very disappointing to see that the new theories of disciplining a child has bled over onto the football field. Putting a kid in "timeout" underneath the goalpost ?? C'mon man, you have to be able to see that this new age discipline is not working in the classroom and it won't work on the field. Football is the last bastion of discipline in our society, and it will be a tragedy if we let it erode there as well. BTW, I do not condone or us mindlessly screaming, physical abuse, belittling in front of peers, etc. for discipine, nor do I believe anyone on this thread is arguing for that. I believe there is a time for everything. Different people and different situations call for positive AND negative punishment. you know why I send the kid to stand over in the corner or next to the goalpost? it is not for them it is for myself. instead of geting upset or yelling, i can send them to a timeout as you call it and when I am done being mad, i can then talk to them about their behavior adn coach them up. most people are reactive people my goal is a to be a responsive person. guess I have been reading too many of frosty adn zig zilars books on personal development.
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Post by airman on Oct 30, 2006 21:46:50 GMT -6
My main theory is that no one wants to be criticized, but everyone wants to improve and do the right thing. frosty westering would call th is red car vs blue car. red car is competition vs other people so you are always comparing yourself to some one else. blue car is competition to be the best self you can be. you compete against yourself. instead of worring about bill benching 400 and you only doing 300. you worry about adding 5 to 10 pounds to your own max. when you learn the blue car theory, you learn you do not have to compete against some one else. you can be happy with what you have. frosty has two videos goal setting for the double win and make the big time where you are. a season of life book is a good one too.
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Post by tog on Oct 31, 2006 7:14:19 GMT -6
coach orr got it
it's all about capital
which is all about respect
you have to earn it, you have to give it
personally, I am a mix of what airman and calande are I guess
I roll em, belly em, air raid em, when I need to
things I need to do that for are mostly effort related
the other stuff, the accountability stuff I handle more along the lines of airman
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 31, 2006 7:29:53 GMT -6
my wife made an interesting comment to me this am about "false self esteem" and kids actually having too much self esteem...they have done nothing but feel great about themselves and its to the point where they lack a competitive fire. Interesting. trophies for everyone, we love you no matter what you do kind of stuff...I think this thread goes back to setting limits, clearly laying down your expectations both of your staff and your players and holding everyone accountable by whatever methods you think work for you.
btw, i dont think discipline has to involve yelling, cursing, name calling, belittling or even embarassing criticism. I think it simply must involve the concept of BEING ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR ACTIONS. every decision we make in life, good, bad or ugly has consequences. its the severity and frequency/consistency of those consequences that TEACH us not to make the mistakes twice. I believe that mistakes are valuable, they are only truly bad if we dont learn from them. (in most cases obviously)...
Yesterday I could certainly have pulled a "go sit under the goal post and watch practice" but I chose my way instead...i made my kids do extra conditioning for lack of intensity and effort as some have mailed it in for the year. I think it sets the tone for things to come. I made a point of showing that the year isnt over, last practice or not...we will see. whatever works.
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Post by coachorr on Nov 4, 2006 14:22:02 GMT -6
Airman, thanks for the comments, I will definitely look into Frosty's videos. Sounds good. BTW, have you read the book "Season of Life", by Jeffery Marx? I would reccomend it.
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