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Post by ccscoach on Oct 26, 2006 11:12:06 GMT -6
My position coach would have said it doesn't matter i will find someone better then you anyway....You can lose that scholarship just as fast as you got it....
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Post by jhanawa on Oct 26, 2006 11:22:27 GMT -6
Brophy I would love to do that unforuntly he is the only JV QB we have and we can't stop practice everytime he does this so I can have him run.
Actually, you can and should stop the entire practice and make an example out of him. If he doesn't straighten up then walk him and make another QB out of someone on the team that has a good attitude and is a leader.
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Post by coachjblair on Oct 26, 2006 19:03:19 GMT -6
An update on the situation. I asked our OC if I could discipline the kid at all for his behavior and he said let him and the HC deal with it. They have yet to talk to the QB and I am starting to think they think it is no big deal and will continue to allow it to happen. Oh well it is starting to look more and more like this might not be the right coaching situation and I will most likely move on after the season.
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Post by airman on Oct 26, 2006 19:15:28 GMT -6
since I do not believe in providing punishment I just tell the kid to go home, think about why he is choosing bad behavior and then if he chooses to change his behavior, he can first apologize to the team and to me before he can play.
he knows to play more then a half on friday, he has to complete all practices for a game. so a missed practice, equals a missed game.
as for kids talking during while I am talking, I solve that in a hurry. I tell them to tell the team what they are talking about or they do not play on game night. we all need to be in on their little secret.
just like inthe class room, i catch you passing notes, I read them and then make you read them infront of the class. solves my not problem.
to me if you are going to hand you things like up downs, you have to make the team do it while the offenders watch and then let the team take care of the offenders. still, i just do not like the hole punishment thing cause some kids actually like doing up downs or do the half ass. what do you do then.
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Post by coachjblair on Oct 26, 2006 19:24:18 GMT -6
The key is though I can't do anything with this kid send him home provide punsihment or anything. From what I understand I have to hope our OC or HC talk to him about it which I don't see them doing
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Post by brophy on Oct 26, 2006 19:37:01 GMT -6
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Post by coachjblair on Oct 26, 2006 19:50:51 GMT -6
You know the more I look at the situation I probly did all I could do. I am sure the situation will probly be taken care of and I am probly over reacting some. Anyways thanks for leting me vent and now I have a better idea of what I will if the situation happens again.
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Post by airman on Oct 26, 2006 19:51:54 GMT -6
The key is though I can't do anything with this kid send him home provide punsihment or anything. From what I understand I have to hope our OC or HC talk to him about it which I don't see them doing i know your situation at the college level is much different then mine at the high school level. I hand out writting assignments to players. you swear, you owe me 500 to 1000 words on why swearing is not acceptable. one day, the whole team was talking trash, so the whole team got a writting assignment on sportsmanship. i give them what i call the red card. it is a 3x5 index card with what I want written. the kid fails to produce the writting assignment, he fails to play. I have not had a parent yet call me and tell me these are bad things. imagine having to go home and tell your parents you have to wirte 500 words on why it is not cool to talk while the coach or anyone else is talking. then they get you read it during stretch and felx period to the team. i have them for players who skip, who swear. my best one was for 10 players who thought it would be cool to make statements to the girls cross country team. they wrote on how to respectfully treat a woman. did get a call from a mom congradulating me on ths.
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Post by coachjblair on Oct 26, 2006 19:56:46 GMT -6
Although to answer your question brophy I would like to be able to keep the player after and have him run one 40-yard dash for everytime he shows disrespect to me. I think if I did this I would get yelled at and the player would be told he did not have to do and this would show the team that I have no autoirty.
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Post by mitch on Oct 27, 2006 7:52:11 GMT -6
You need to mount his *ss, and if the coaching staff doesn't support you, get the heck out of Dodge. It sounds like the coaching staff is a bunch of athlete coddlers. You don't want to follow that example if you want to become a good coach.
Coaching isn't a popularity contest.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 8:24:20 GMT -6
Although to answer your question brophy I would like to be able to keep the player after and have him run one 40-yard dash for everytime he shows disrespect to me. I think if I did this I would get yelled at and the player would be told he did not have to do and this would show the team that I have no autoirty. coach, again i have to ask...what is one fourty yard dash going to do? you are talking about 5 seconds of running for disrespect to a coach?....let the consequence fit his actions...lack of respect is a form of insubordination...insubordination will get you fired in real life...let the boy know that he can get fired in his football job as well....run him silly. dont worry , just do it.
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 10:22:37 GMT -6
coach, again i have to ask...what is one fourty yard dash going to do? you are talking about 5 seconds of running for disrespect to a coach?....let the consequence fit his actions...lack of respect is a form of insubordination...insubordination will get you fired in real life...let the boy know that he can get fired in his football job as well....run him silly. dont worry , just do it. yeah, that...... Running after practice for some may work, but I've had more than my share of kids who could run all night (seriously). How would you handle this situation in the commercial sector? Counsel the guy once....then reprimand his ace.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 11:57:50 GMT -6
nobody can run "bellies" all night...no one.
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 17:26:40 GMT -6
but what has the person learned by doing bellies? this is not the marine corps we are talking about. fear only goes so far these days. the days of telling a kid to run through a brick wall and not having them question you is over. kids today are children and grandchildren of the flower power generation. the generation raised to question all authority figures. the generation who took little boys and tried to make them little girls in a gender neutral lifestyle.
i think you have to get kids to understand the what and the why and I told you do to it is not good enough anymore.
may be at the private schools you get kids who are still old school but not in public school.
football coaches would get fired in the real world for the tactics suggested on this board.
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 17:53:15 GMT -6
fear only goes so far these days. the days of telling a kid to run through a brick wall and not having them question you is over. may be at the private schools you get kids who are still old school but not in public school. preach it
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 19:28:25 GMT -6
even the marine corps has changed a great deal. while it was never legal for a DI to punch a recruit. the corps would look the other way. now if you punch a recruit, you will lose your stripes.
while I love and crave the military structure. I do not think using fear and physical punishment is going to get you where you want to go. some times a kid does need a boot in the ass but more times he needs some one to listen to what he has to say.
if you yell and use bellies as punishment, kids adapt, stop listening to you. now if I have to yell at practice, the world stops because I yell so infrequently.
john wooden never handled a player and look at the amount of wins he has. then you look at bobby knight who is very abusive and is going to be the games all time winner at the college level soon. to me it is hypocritical the way bobby handles himself. he demands his players toe the line and then he contantly crosses it. i think the days the bobby can recruit the type of playes who can handle his verbal and man handling are coming to a end. he even told his son pat not to be like himself.
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 19:54:24 GMT -6
if you yell and use bellies as punishment, kids adapt, stop listening to you. now if I have to yell at practice, the world stops because I yell so infrequently. hear me now, believe me later The 'great' coaches were masters of social psychology
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 20:21:14 GMT -6
even the marine corps has changed a great deal. while it was never legal for a DI to punch a recruit. the corps would look the other way. now if you punch a recruit, you will lose your stripes. while I love and crave the military structure. I do not think using fear and physical punishment is going to get you where you want to go. some times a kid does need a boot in the {censored} but more times he needs some one to listen to what he has to say. if you yell and use bellies as punishment, kids adapt, stop listening to you. now if I have to yell at practice, the world stops because I yell so infrequently. john wooden never handled a player and look at the amount of wins he has. then you look at bobby knight who is very abusive and is going to be the games all time winner at the college level soon. to me it is hypocritical the way bobby handles himself. he demands his players toe the line and then he contantly crosses it. i think the days the bobby can recruit the type of playes who can handle his verbal and man handling are coming to a end. he even told his son pat not to be like himself. I disagree. You provide discipline for the kid, not to the kid. What does he learn? hes no different than you or me, he learns that his actions carry an uncomfortable consequence. You still do as you said, take the time to talk to them privately and let them know that you care about them and that you are there to help them in life...and THAT IS WHY THEY OWE THE BELLIES. its quite simply a consequence. I never said a thing about yelling. Perfect example, at the beginning of a practice a few weeks ago I had said to my team "guys, you need to keep your helmets on, we cannot afford to waste one moment waiting for you to find your helmet and strap up for a drill, keep the helmets on, are we clear on this?" and they replied "yes sir!"...a bit later one of the more entitled boys (who was obviously coddled on his prior team as he thinks hes some kind of star) had his helmet off and was running his mouth during the drill. I didnt yell, just said "jeron, hit the hill, you have 5 because your helmet is off". The rest of us just kept doing what we were doing. no yelling...Jeron hasnt had his helmet off since. Now, you might have chosen to do it a different way, but this is my way. I teach my kids all the time, "you can be smarter, or you can be in better shape...whats it going to be?" and that works for me. if we are doing reps and the effort and focus seems to be diminished i just say "we can do other things" and it works for me. always has. Ill give you a couple of other examples of my way..not saying its the best or only way, but its what I do. keep in mind this has worked in differnent schools/towns with different "types" of kids and really turned things around for the teams there...ok, standard consequence of a missed practice...excused= 500 yards of bellies for makeup conditioning...unexcused =1000 yards of bellies...guess what? kids dont miss practice. another example, 100 yards of bellies for mental errors ie off sides, fumbles or misalignments or shooting the wrong gap ...stuff like that...works for me. cuts way down on those things as kids dont like bellies...helps them focus when they fear the consequence. heres another real example...a week ago, one of my captains was trotting off the field...has been the model citizen for weeks...a real leader...but I hear him drop a couple of curse words on his way off the field as hes telling his peers a story about what happened in school...i just call his name, he stops and turns back toward the hill without a word. he didnt know I was behind him. Later his mother emailed me to thank me for handling his language (and noted that hes "changed" that at home somewhat) and said the boy was most concerned (as Im sure she was) that hed lost his captain status...he had not. I dont expect any of kids to be perfect,...I applauded his acceptance of the consequence as he KNEW hed broken the rule and had a price to pay. Again, some might have taken his captain status from him for cursing...Im a realist here. Im trying to improve all of my kids, not make them hate football or hate discipline. Teaching the boys to respect rules is a very big part of what we provide for the kids. Just my thinking. I did tell the Mother that this was one strike against the boy and that he didnt have room to continue to curse. I expected him to show more control. Another example. A boy acted out in class...he ran 60 hills for it. I dont coddle my kids. Another example, at our first game there were 6, yes, 6 boys who were not "game ready" as instructed. they hadnt laced their pants with the belts I provided. They ran bellies after the game. every boy has been game ready since. This is my first year at this school after 3 years away and in my opinion they have had too much room to be OUT OF UNIFORM in the past. I dont allow that. No blue socks, orange shoes, red under armor etc...I dont want them trying to look like individuals, i want them trying to look like a TEAM. thats just what I believe in . I am proud to say that in 6 games we have yet to be called for an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. It was my goal at the beginning of the season not to win the league but to win the sportsmanship award.
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 20:29:25 GMT -6
when did discipline become physical punishment? what do you do tot he kid who says thank you sir, may I have another? the kid who is in perfect shape, who just does not care.
i am not saying you coddle players at all. I just do not think you learn anything by giving out physical punishment.
it takes all kinds.
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 20:33:34 GMT -6
the last I'll say and mayb ethis is my bias.
We used to do the after-practice 'consequence' for misbehavior, tardies, absences....
Even though we made these pretty gruelling ordeals, we found they really never curbed behavior one bit. It turned out, for us, to be a total waste of time because;
1) kid behaviors weren't noteably affected (most of the kids that screwed up were phenomenal athletes who DID run sets of 220 yard sprints or ladders with little effort).
2) it wasted time of a coach(es) after practice, who could be participating in a meeting with the other coaches, at home with their family, preparing equipment, etc.
3) Inconvenient on nights when practices were cut short due to scheduling issues (band on the field, practice field used for another activity, kid had to go to work, etc...
good topic for discussion - just sharing our experiences...
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 20:36:31 GMT -6
the last I'll say and mayb ethis is my bias. We used to do the after-practice 'consequence' for misbehavior, tardies, absences.... Even though we made these pretty gruelling ordeals, we found they really never curbed behavior one bit. It turned out, for us, to be a total waste of time because; 1) kid behaviors weren't noteably affected 2) it wasted time of a coach(es) after practice, who could be participating in a meeting with the other coaches, at home with their family, preparing equipment, etc. 3) Inconvenient on nights when practices were cut short due to scheduling issues (band on the field, practice field used for another activity, kid had to go to work, etc... good topic for discussion - just sharing our experiences... bellies curb behavior. Like parenting or teaching a class you must be consistent and you must mean what you say and say what you mean while you show them you care. Just what I believe. I have yet to meet the kid who enjoys bellies and can do them all day. I have yet to find teaching discipline to be a waste of any coaches time. That just sounds sort of copoutish...kinda...and i have yet to meet any kid who cant get in better shape....somehow. shoot, we use bellies as a deterrant for all kinds of things...i might just bend over and pick up a water bottle, or peice of tape that was left on the field and say "shoot, this has to be worth 100 yards of bellies" and I have kids runnign over to me "no coach, thats mine, ill take that, ill get all the trash up...its all mine" we have the kids label their gear with a number...if i find their gear, identifiable by their number, they have bellies...if i find gear with no number, THEY ALL HAVE BELLIES. one day, after I had instructed them all to label their gear, i did a surprise helmet check...three boys out of 60 hadnt followed the intruction and each had 3 hills every day until it was labeled. I saw at the end of practice a captain writing numbers on EVERYONES helmets and knee pads. taking care of each other...thats what its all about.
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Post by phantom on Oct 27, 2006 20:39:34 GMT -6
I have a situation with one of the quarterbacks I coach in that he seems to lack respect for the coaching staff especially me. When he is told how to correct something he cusses under his breath or will just tune the coach out. I tend to have the most trouble with him in that he is extremely mouthy to me and is very resistant to any coaching I would give him. I know this is partly due to the fact I am a young coach (1st year out of college and he is a college kid), and due to the fact I did not play college football (I was a student assistant at a top 1-AA school). I told our Offensive Coordinator about this today and he said he would talk to him about it, but at the same time I don’t want it to seem like I am a tattle tale and will tell on my players if they do something wrong. Anyways I was wondering how young coaches or any coach for that matter handles a situation like this. " Be more specific. What do you mean by "Mouthy" and "Resistant to coaching"?
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Post by coachjd on Oct 27, 2006 20:50:44 GMT -6
what we have to remember is the coach who asked for our help is a college coach. I coached college football for 9 years and have been to many other college practices. I have seen position coaches crawl up players behinds before, but never have I seen a position coach stop practice to run a kid or do bellies. We did them after practice punishments and it ended up being a waist of time like brophy said. I look back at some of the things I made kids do at the college level and one of two things would happen to me right now if I did some of them at the high school I'm at; 1. The kids would quit or 2. I would get fired.
There is a big difference between a junior high athlete and a upper classmen high school athlete, as there is a huge difference between a high school and college athletes. As a PE teacher I try to not punish kids with physical drills such as running sprints or doing up downs. I do not want them to think that physcial activity is a punichment. I would rather have the kid clean the lockerroom for a week, clean all the weight benches in the wgt room, mop the wgt room floor.
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 20:50:47 GMT -6
might just bend over and pick up a water bottle, or peice of tape that was left on the field and say "shoot, this has to be worth 100 yards of bellies" and I have kids runnign over to me "no coach, thats mine, ill take that, ill get all the trash up...its all mine" www.thirteen.org/edonline/leadership/gaining.htmlI hear ya, coach..... That is nice control over your players - but what does this accomplish? Are teams successful because they all CONFORM? There is no room for expression (as a kid looking to express their individuality?) = Please coach, or face the consequences.Through this approach, are we not reinforcing LEADERSHIP BY FEAR, rather than Leadership by assertive direction? Hats off to you, your dedication, your organization....you are a champion coach and a great benefit to any Varsity program . That all being said, I don't think there is ONE right way to do things, each his own and each situation is different - but in leading 8 year olds or 28 year olds....SHOULD there be a different style of leadership? What is the difference? Do we want to condition our players to be men (talk to them as men) or children (talk to them as children)?
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 21:05:17 GMT -6
might just bend over and pick up a water bottle, or peice of tape that was left on the field and say "shoot, this has to be worth 100 yards of bellies" and I have kids runnign over to me "no coach, thats mine, ill take that, ill get all the trash up...its all mine" I hear ya, coach..... That is nice control over your players - but what does this accomplish? Are teams successful because they all CONFORM? There is no room for expression (as a kid looking to express their individuality?) = Please coach, or face the consequences.Through this approach, are we not reinforcing LEADERSHIP BY FEAR, rather than Leadership by assertive direction? Hats off to you, your dedication, your organization....you are a champion coach and a great benefit to any Varsity program . That all being said, I don't think there is ONE right way to do things, each his own and each situation is different - but in leading 8 year olds or 28 year olds....SHOULD there be a different style of leadership? What is the difference? Do we want to condition our players to be men (talk to them as men) or children (talk to them as children)? You are right, there are different ways to get the desired results. I often chuckle when someone throws up the whole "jr high coach" thing as if coaching 14 year olds is much different from coaching 15 and 16 and 17 year olds. They crave structure much the same. But more to the point, I didnt invent discipline, I didnt invent bellies. I learned about Bellies from 4 time AAAA LEVEL HIGH SCHOOL STATE FOOTBALL CHAMPION Coaches. Heres the deal, some things are a deterrant to some kids...some kids need alot more attention and time...but eventually they learn or they are gone. No way I could just say "go home" to a kid who leaves trash on the field or has his helmet off...I first teach him what I want, then i reinforce it...we are all saying the same things here.. 1) make expectations clear 2) hold athletes accountable SOME WAY 3) make them better citizens in the process bottom line, I dont ever fear a boy quitting because of bellies...no way, id rather lose the player than lose control...I dont ever fear a kid quitting because hes too good an athlete to replace. cancer spreads...thats the point of my involvement in this thread. a young coach is dealing with an attitude problem...a jv attitude problem at that. no respect=no shot ON MY TEAM. just how id handle it. others might choose to let it slide...in the long run it will hurt the program. I look forward to my second year back here as i know it will go easier just because ill have so many kids that know my way and how things are done. Not every kid loves me but I dont care. most of them do, most of them appreciate the structure and consistency...its all clear to them...the expectations and the consequences. its nice to be able to just relax and know the locker room doesnt need 4 adults in it to supervise 60 middle schoolers... think about that. My philosophy might be different from yours and thats fine, it starts with this stuff: what you tolerate, you encourage discipline is something you do for someone, not to someone. deal with the small stuff and you wont have big stuff to deal with the ultimate goal is self discipline, what the student athlete does when Im not watching.
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 21:06:00 GMT -6
the last I'll say and mayb ethis is my bias. We used to do the after-practice 'consequence' for misbehavior, tardies, absences.... Even though we made these pretty gruelling ordeals, we found they really never curbed behavior one bit. It turned out, for us, to be a total waste of time because; 1) kid behaviors weren't noteably affected 2) it wasted time of a coach(es) after practice, who could be participating in a meeting with the other coaches, at home with their family, preparing equipment, etc. 3) Inconvenient on nights when practices were cut short due to scheduling issues (band on the field, practice field used for another activity, kid had to go to work, etc... good topic for discussion - just sharing our experiences... bellies curb behavior. Like parenting or teaching a class you must be consistent and you must mean what you say and say what you mean while you show them you care. Just what I believe. I have yet to meet the kid who enjoys bellies and can do them all day. I have yet to find teaching discipline to be a waste of any coaches time. That just sounds sort of copoutish...kinda...and i have yet to meet any kid who cant get in better shape....somehow. shoot, we use bellies as a deterrant for all kinds of things...i might just bend over and pick up a water bottle, or peice of tape that was left on the field and say "shoot, this has to be worth 100 yards of bellies" and I have kids runnign over to me "no coach, thats mine, ill take that, ill get all the trash up...its all mine" we have the kids label their gear with a number...if i find their gear, identifiable by their number, they have bellies...if i find gear with no number, THEY ALL HAVE BELLIES. one day, after I had instructed them all to label their gear, i did a surprise helmet check...three boys out of 60 hadnt followed the intruction and each had 3 hills every day until it was labeled. I saw at the end of practice a captain writing numbers on EVERYONES helmets and knee pads. taking care of each other...thats what its all about. but what have they learned? they have learned to fear their coach. they have not learned why it is important. they have just learned to do it. mine is not to question to but to do or die. when kid screws up I want him to learn why and how not to do it again. that stuff might work with jr kids but what you going to do when a kid say {censored} you and walks off the team because you have just given him a bizillion yds of bellies. you have just lost a player. i used to think chasing away the bad ones would solve my problems and it did not. my father yelled at me all the time when I screwed up. I learned to fear my father. my grandfather taught me how not to screw up by educating me on things. i want to be like my grandfather. oh and I survived bootcap at paris island. they teach discipline through fear, they also get a lot of people killed because they can not think for themselves. I agree discipline is some thing you do for some body not to some body. kids on the other hand see you as doing it to them. teach them to understand the how and why and you do not have to punish them.
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Post by brophy on Oct 27, 2006 21:09:22 GMT -6
I dont' think this approach will work with college student athletes....because they transfer next semester and play for your rival
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 21:11:51 GMT -6
No one said we dont teach them why their actions are wrong, we just teach them that not only are they wrong, BUT THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES. I am not sure if you are missing that point air or just looking to extend this thread lol.
heres an example to make it clear
kid forgets his chin strap...he "borrows" it from another kid ...
your way "thats wrong, give it back"...kid shrugs and gives it back
my way "thats wrong, give it back and hit the hill, you got 10. then you owe 100 yards of bellies for forgetting your strap too...we take stealing very seriously around here- you steal from your teammates again and youre off the team, clear?" - kid hits the hill, NO KID ON THE TEAM EVER TAKES ANOTHER CHIN STRAP OR ANY OTHER PIECE OF GEAR.
now, whats the kid learn? a) stealing is wrong, even if he calls it "borrowing" when he gets caught b) stealing carries a consequence c) coach isnt playing d)the other kids wont borrow squat
thats about as simple as I can put it.
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Post by airman on Oct 27, 2006 21:12:07 GMT -6
I dont' think this approach will work with college student athletes....because they transfer next semester and play for your rival brophy, I was thinking of the same picture you just posted. the hard ass on 16 candles. you know he passed away her this summer I believe.
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Post by coachcalande on Oct 27, 2006 21:13:23 GMT -6
I dont' think this approach will work with college student athletes....because they transfer next semester and play for your rival so this is the attitude that developed Terrell Owens...the whole "we dont want to lose this guy" approach to handling discipline.
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