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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 16:13:23 GMT -6
Currently coaching in the 1st and 2nd most poorest counties in the state. We are a very rural, agricultural based economy. Most of our players work and/or have jobs on the family farm/ranch. For the most part we have gotten guys to be committed in a football culture that is extremely toxic (previous staff, not us). What we are having a tough time is holding the ones accountable that are at weights, practice, camps etc. with the ones that have to miss for work. I'm just coming here from a upper-scale city school that if you worked, you didn't play, period. You were basically not even asked to try out for the team. Again, this was a large school of roughly 3500 kids. I'm now at a school with around 1100 kids in a much different economic climate (almost polar opposites in terms of economic status). Head coach is a stickler for accountability and guys being there etc. I get all that, but what I'm afraid of is our puny roster diminishing to a number where we aren't going to have enough guys b/c some of our guys are going to have to miss the early practices for work.
For those in a similar situation, what are you doing to be flexible with these types of kids and yet still hold everyone accountable? We make the kids make up their misses etc. but there comes a point of diminishing returns where if you aren't in the weight room or at practice even making it up will still ultimately find a way to harm the team. Anyhow, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Duece
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 24, 2019 16:22:51 GMT -6
I think that is a tough call. Essentially, in these cases I think you might have to just face facts and say "hey, based on our environment, our population etc we just aren't going to be a ______ level caliber team. Let's make the most of the experience for us and the kids"
In some places, sadly football becomes "a job" for these kids. Sounds like at your school, the kids can't be afforded that "luxury", and they have actual real jobs. Pretty hard to have the expectation to compete with kids whose job is football, when you are a kid with a job and still to play football.
I don't have any concrete policy suggestions, but it seems like if you can create an environment/atmosphere where the kids WANT to be at the practices and only miss when they have no other options, it would work itself out for the most part. Maybe ensure that those with substantial conflicts don't hold a pivotal role on the club.
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Post by hsrose on Jul 24, 2019 16:59:29 GMT -6
We're a school of 650 or so and have the same issue. I have kids getting dressed in the parking lot coming in from work. Clearing mountain lots in 100 degree weather, cutting wood, running cattle/sheep/pigs/ranching, working electrical/construction with dad/uncle. One of my players was the acknowledged expert in pig breeding for the county, had been running his own pigs by the time he was 11. These ain't clerking at the Rite Aid, these are hard jobs. Come to the field dirty as hell, in shorts, t-shirt, carrying cleats, and wearing boots. They will go lift in their boots. They work hard when they are there, but they are working hard jobs and football is a diversion, not a priority.
I got 2 kids right now that have been tossed out of their homes. Couch surfing with friends. Makes it hard to get physicals and such when nobody will sign for them. Seems the scenario is kid starts working at 13 or so, by the time he's 17 he's been working hard and feeling his oats, feels that he's on par with mom/old man because he's working just as hard as they are. Mom & dad still see him as a kid so things start going downhill. Good kids, just the 'get out of the house' milestone gets reached a lot earlier.
I've had kids leave practice to go feed the sheep in the pens next to the field, part of their Ag program. When we have the local fair, they get 2 days off from school. This is spring practice time so the week of the fair is shot because they are setting up their animals for the fair. The week after is shot because they are delivering their animals to the buyers and getting everything back in order. Got 650 in the school, Ag has 375 or so in the program and FFA.
I tell the kids that if you are working for your family, I'll work with you. If you are working for gas for your truck and little Suzie you only got 4 years to play HS sports and you will be working for the next 50 and my patience is muchly lessened.
You want the team to be competitive and get wins and all that. But at some places it's just not in the cards.
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Post by agap on Jul 24, 2019 17:38:09 GMT -6
We didn't punish players who missed things because of work at the previous school I was at. We'd schedule lifting, camps, etc. at times when most could show up and work wasn't as much of an issue. We didn't think it made any sense to punish players because they had a job in the summer, as long as they showed up to things when they weren't working.
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Post by coachlit on Jul 24, 2019 20:21:22 GMT -6
We release our in-season schedule weeks in advanced to ensure our kids get their work schedule changed to not conflict with our practice schedule. We're strict with our attendance policy--especially since we've had some issues in recent years. Our students come from a very diverse population--some students who live in single bed apartments with Mom whereas some parents are making well over six figures. Our students understand situations with players who legitimately have to help make ends meet. I think it's something that you address only if someone calls it out.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 24, 2019 20:56:28 GMT -6
Sometimes kids need football more than football needs them.
If kids are still coming when they can, doing what they are supposed to, not causing problems then what's the big deal. Hate to say it but some places playing football is just a fun thing for guys to do, agree with 5085 some places the goal isn't a state title and never will be. Go out, be a positive influence on the kids, make it fun for them and kids will find ways to get there.
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Post by blb on Jul 25, 2019 7:21:28 GMT -6
Like coachlit we published our Football Calendar way in advance (no later than start of second semester previous school year) and it didn't change much if at all from year to year. Kids and parents knew what was coming and when. So we expected kids to arrange their work schedule around practice times. Work was not an excused absence. Told kids I wouldn't want to work for a boss who wouldn't work with them to schedule around football. Remember in our state we couldn't make Off-Season mandatory so if a kid missed workout or camp because of his job, wasn't happy about it but nothing we could do about it either. All that said, I once coached at a school with high free and reduced lunch rate (meaning low socioeconomics). A lot of kids HAD to work and not just to pay for their new car that they had so they could get to work. The school had a numbers problem in football before I got there. So what we did instead of traditional Two-a-Days (this was 30 years ago) was practice from 4-8 pm (Freshmen 5-7 pm). That way kids could work during the day and still play football. Once school started we had a lot of kids who would haul azz after practice to get to jobs in the evenings and worked a lot of weekend hours too. |
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Post by hsrose on Jul 25, 2019 7:39:58 GMT -6
Trying to post an image, lets see if this works. One of the players yesterday at one of our summer workouts. He's clearing lots which up here means he's cutting down brush and weed whacking stuff for fire breaks around houses. Poison oak, snakes, bugs, heat, moving logs, trimming trees, no water, all that good stuff. Talked with a friend of his in the same workout that works at the local foundry/metal shop. He thought he might be missing our early practices/workouts at 330 next week (we start fall practice next week) because he's on the 6AM-230PM shift. He comes in dirty from head to toe.  www.dropbox.com/s/6sxlgsecm1hzux7/Boots.jpg?dl=0I also publish the calendar way in advance, it's on the team website, it's in all the handouts. |
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Post by funkfriss on Jul 25, 2019 8:52:12 GMT -6
Been my problem for a while now. Ultimately I’ve come to the realization that my job as a football coach is to take what’s given to us and give them the best chance to succeed. We have lifting at 6:30 AM, but we have a good number of kids who either have to work that early or are working manual labor jobs outside in the heat and don’t want to be tired at work after a workout.
Does it suck? Absolutely. Are we missing out on our potential? No doubt. But at the end of the day these kids want to play the game of football and it’s our job to give them that opportunity and make them the best they can be. The funny thing is, when our dads was playing nobody saw this as an issue because nobody was doing chit in the summer for football. Now that everybody is #grinding you gotta keep up to compete most of the time and though is tougher than chit to do when you’re playing against affluent schools where kids have all the time in the world to lift, sprint and practice.
Don’t like it? Better move on...
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2019 9:20:14 GMT -6
We have lifting at 6:30 AM, but we have a good number of kids who either have to work that early or are working manual labor jobs outside in the heat and don’t want to be tired at work after a workout. Is 6:30 the best time to work out, then? |
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Post by funkfriss on Jul 25, 2019 10:04:20 GMT -6
We have lifting at 6:30 AM, but we have a good number of kids who either have to work that early or are working manual labor jobs outside in the heat and don’t want to be tired at work after a workout. Is 6:30 the best time to work out, then? Trust me, we’ve definitely had many discussions on this. Our biggest issue is we’re in Iowa, the only state that still has Summer baseball, so there’s that “problem” too... |
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Post by fantom on Jul 25, 2019 10:06:05 GMT -6
Is 6:30 the best time to work out, then? Trust me, we’ve definitely had many discussions on this. Our biggest issue is we’re in Iowa, the only state that still has Summer baseball, so there’s that “problem” too... Yeah, I get it. Sometimes it's just the way things are. |
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Post by wolverine55 on Jul 25, 2019 10:20:19 GMT -6
Is 6:30 the best time to work out, then? Trust me, we’ve definitely had many discussions on this. Our biggest issue is we’re in Iowa, the only state that still has Summer baseball, so there’s that “problem” too... One thing we've done to help with the summer baseball and work issues is we offer two times: 7:45-9:00 in the morning and 5:15-6:30 in the evening. We don't have coaches go to both sessions and divide up who is supervising when so helps lesson the #grind on the staff. |
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Post by fkaboneyard on Jul 25, 2019 10:52:42 GMT -6
We're a school of 650 or so and have the same issue. I have kids getting dressed in the parking lot coming in from work. Clearing mountain lots in 100 degree weather, cutting wood, running cattle/sheep/pigs/ranching, working electrical/construction with dad/uncle. One of my players was the acknowledged expert in pig breeding for the county, had been running his own pigs by the time he was 11. These ain't clerking at the Rite Aid, these are hard jobs. Come to the field dirty as hell, in shorts, t-shirt, carrying cleats, and wearing boots. They will go lift in their boots. They work hard when they are there, but they are working hard jobs and football is a diversion, not a priority.
These kids make the world a better place.
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center
Junior Member
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Post by center on Jul 25, 2019 11:01:01 GMT -6
Another solution I heard was a coach at a poor school that I knew that had a short camp the week or so before practice started. Had it at night and basically arranged transportation to get everyone there. He might have went around with a school bus even. Don’t quote me on that. But he was crazy and didn’t let anything get in the way.
He had horrible summer attendance in the past but at this 2-3 day camp he basically did a bunch of running, cals, lined up base O and D.
Also he had all the preseason paperwork there and it was right by the school physical date. Wasn’t ideal but he got most of the paperwork in so they could practice. That is a huge deal in these situations.
And they got a little work in before start of practice. Better than nothing.
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Post by hasdhawks on Jul 25, 2019 11:05:09 GMT -6
Trust me, we’ve definitely had many discussions on this. Our biggest issue is we’re in Iowa, the only state that still has Summer baseball, so there’s that “problem” too... One thing we've done to help with the summer baseball and work issues is we offer two times: 7:45-9:00 in the morning and 5:15-6:30 in the evening. We don't have coaches go to both sessions and divide up who is supervising when so helps lesson the #grind on the staff. We had a similar structure to this. I coached in an area where some athletes needed the job to help with the family income, so we opened up another S&C session in the evenings. As for the football portion, we worked basic fundamentals in circuits and chalk-talked scheme stuff so they were on the same page as the kids in the morning. They didn't get the physical scheme reps but they were a lot further ahead than if we didn't offer it. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 25, 2019 11:10:13 GMT -6
We're a school of 650 or so and have the same issue. I have kids getting dressed in the parking lot coming in from work. Clearing mountain lots in 100 degree weather, cutting wood, running cattle/sheep/pigs/ranching, working electrical/construction with dad/uncle. One of my players was the acknowledged expert in pig breeding for the county, had been running his own pigs by the time he was 11. These ain't clerking at the Rite Aid, these are hard jobs. Come to the field dirty as hell, in shorts, t-shirt, carrying cleats, and wearing boots. They will go lift in their boots. They work hard when they are there, but they are working hard jobs and football is a diversion, not a priority.
These kids make the world a better place.
They do. As far as the jerk coaches who have taken the game away from guys like this with year round football.... it is a shame. |
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Post by 33coach on Jul 25, 2019 11:22:59 GMT -6
Currently coaching in the 1st and 2nd most poorest counties in the state. We are a very rural, agricultural based economy. Most of our players work and/or have jobs on the family farm/ranch. For the most part we have gotten guys to be committed in a football culture that is extremely toxic (previous staff, not us). What we are having a tough time is holding the ones accountable that are at weights, practice, camps etc. with the ones that have to miss for work. I'm just coming here from a upper-scale city school that if you worked, you didn't play, period. You were basically not even asked to try out for the team. Again, this was a large school of roughly 3500 kids. I'm now at a school with around 1100 kids in a much different economic climate (almost polar opposites in terms of economic status). Head coach is a stickler for accountability and guys being there etc. I get all that, but what I'm afraid of is our puny roster diminishing to a number where we aren't going to have enough guys b/c some of our guys are going to have to miss the early practices for work. For those in a similar situation, what are you doing to be flexible with these types of kids and yet still hold everyone accountable? We make the kids make up their misses etc. but there comes a point of diminishing returns where if you aren't in the weight room or at practice even making it up will still ultimately find a way to harm the team. Anyhow, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Duece im actually in this boat myself. i had to miss every single spring practice this year because our header scheduled them at 10AM... i work a normal job. It was pretty simple for us... i talked to him, he totally understood, another coach took over my position when i couldnt be there...no harm no worries. the suggestion i have, is find a practice time that works for the majority... then work around the schedule of those who cant make that time. kids like that.... THEY NEED FOOTBALL more then FOOTBALL NEEDS THEM almost certainly. |
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Post by 53 on Jul 25, 2019 12:01:07 GMT -6
those are the guys that are fun to coach.
It might limit what you can do scheme wise but you're also going to be a team full of ass kickers if they're working those kind of jobs.
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Post by blb on Jul 25, 2019 12:03:19 GMT -6
As has been demonstrated in this thread - every situation is different.
So as the coach you have to be willing to adjust-adapt, be flexible.
Not every football program can have winning the state championship as a reasonable goal.
Heck in our state even though we have had playoffs since 1975 and since 1999 256 qualified for them each year, there are still ~400 schools that have never won one, and a few that have either never made the playoffs or won a playoff game.
That doesn't mean HS football can't be an enjoyable, educational experience for kids, even if a winning season is the best you can strive for.
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Post by blb on Jul 25, 2019 13:52:39 GMT -6
Trying to post an image, lets see if this works. One of the players yesterday at one of our summer workouts. He's clearing lots which up here means he's cutting down brush and weed whacking stuff for fire breaks around houses. Poison oak, snakes, bugs, heat, moving logs, trimming trees, no water, all that good stuff. Talked with a friend of his in the same workout that works at the local foundry/metal shop. He thought he might be missing our early practices/workouts at 330 next week (we start fall practice next week) because he's on the 6AM-230PM shift. He comes in dirty from head to toe. www.dropbox.com/s/6sxlgsecm1hzux7/Boots.jpg?dl=0I also publish the calendar way in advance, it's on the team website, it's in all the handouts.
If kids are doing that all summer, they probably don't need to be lifting weights.
They'll be the strongest, toughest guys you have on your team without setting foot in your weight room.
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Post by mrjvi on Jul 25, 2019 13:56:40 GMT -6
I don't do morning and night workouts any more. I was damned if I did or didn't. Night workouts never got more than 3 or 4 kids and often none. Many if not most of the kids play basketball, baseball and other sports all summer at night. They want to play anything more than train for football. . They all should be able to make mornings but they don't very often. Overall though, I still get more kids with just morning workouts. Jobs keep many away but some come in before their job. We average this year about 10 kids coming. People tell me how great that participation is. Shows how bad it was before.
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Post by blb on Jul 25, 2019 14:55:52 GMT -6
I don't do morning and night workouts any more. I was damned if I did or didn't. Night workouts never got more than 3 or 4 kids and often none. Many if not most of the kids play basketball, baseball and other sports all summer at night. They want to play anything more than train for football. . They all should be able to make mornings but they don't very often. Overall though, I still get more kids with just morning workouts. Jobs keep many away but some come in before their job. We average this year about 10 kids coming. People tell me how great that participation is. Shows how bad it was before.
If that's the case you're probably screwed as far as summer.
Any chance your basketball coach would work with you?
At the school I described earlier in this thread basketball coach would run his camps, open gyms, and scrimmages first three weeks after school was out, be done by July 1.
So we would wait until after July 4 to start weights, conditioning, camps etc.
And we had one of the best basketball programs in the area.
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Post by mrjvi on Jul 25, 2019 19:09:52 GMT -6
I wish. The bb coach absolutely would not work with me. Says he doesn't tell kids not to play but the few FB kids who play BB say he really does say that. BB is the only sport that has been any good for a while.
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Post by gian3074 on Jul 25, 2019 22:25:20 GMT -6
I worked at a school where we had two workout times for kids to come in: one early in the morning and one in the late afternoon. In most cases a kid was able to workout at least one of the times between their job schedule.
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Post by bleefb on Jul 26, 2019 8:30:07 GMT -6
Any chance your basketball coach would work with you?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA  |
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Post by bobgoodman on Jul 26, 2019 8:47:22 GMT -6
Maybe you could get some tips from the coaches of adult amateur (men's or women's) football clubs. (Or possibly other adult sports, though those aren't as practice-intensive as football.) I've seen complaints of practice attendance being very spotty in some of those, probably for the same issue as here: jobs. They must have some way of handling them. Fortunately their opponents have the same issues.
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Post by Defcord on Jul 26, 2019 10:50:26 GMT -6
Sometimes you have to make tough calls as a coach. I tend to say let the ones that have to work have a job and be flexible with them, especially during the summer. That’s going to create some gray area but that’s how it works.
If my son complained because a kid was working to survive, I would tell him it’s time to get a job and start paying for that Xbox electricity he likes yo use up in his air conditioned room after his home cooked meal every night. Would be inclined to give that message to other kids on the team that aren’t happy about a kid missing workouts for a job needed to help the family.
The kids that work just because they want to I would encourage them to ask work to be flexible. When I was a head coach and there was schedule conflicts with these kids, I called their bosses. Every single time the boss was friendly and flexible in trying to get the schedule conflict resolved. One even volunteered to provide pregame meal for us one game. Stole the idea from another coach. He said there was only one time the boss wouldn’t adjust and it was a kids dad or uncle or something.
When kids have to work during the season, things are a little trickier. One of the reasons I am not a head coach is because there’s some things I don’t want to decide and deal with. This situation would fall in that category.
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Post by KYCoach2331 on Jul 26, 2019 11:38:47 GMT -6
I would say the majority of our juniors and seniors work.
We give them a schedule ahead of time, we like to believe that most employers in the area would be willing to work with someone to open up 3-4 hours of their work day and work around it.
Our ILBs I don’t believe have actual “jobs” but they do so many odd jobs in the community that they stay booked for days/weeks at a time.
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Post by option1st on Jul 27, 2019 5:58:47 GMT -6
Struggling with numbers this summer as well, and have a key player or two working. They are from tough economic backgrounds and have to work. Reading this thread reminds me of the fact that:
We coach the most physically and mentally challenging sport, which starts at the hardest time of the year, when we have the least contact/control over our kids.
I would completely support pushing the games back/shortening the regular season so we could start practices closer to the start of school. Starting in early July (in my state) is an inequity for us rural school folks.
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