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Post by blb on Jun 27, 2018 14:23:45 GMT -6
Most of my friends are of the mindset that kids are a necessary evil.
You may want to consider getting some new "friends" then.
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Post by blb on Jun 27, 2018 14:37:32 GMT -6
cbnindian I would be interested to know how you pay for the things you mentioned - two meals a day, "other things people don't see," etc.
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Post by cbnindian on Jun 27, 2018 15:58:09 GMT -6
Sent you a message blb
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Post by blb on Jun 27, 2018 16:02:57 GMT -6
Got it and replied, thanks.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 27, 2018 17:08:01 GMT -6
Who's gonna be the first to implement this "new fangled" way of thinking? Who's gonna be seen as a guy who let another coach "out work" him? I have coached teams in the past who could show up and put a couple of weeks of hard work in and be ready to go come that first scrimmage. I have also coached teams where we could have practiced 12 hours a day for months and they still wouldn't be able to get out of their own way. I agree, the arms race is killing the sport. Not only driving kids away, but I am sure every one knows that one or two coaches in your building who just say they don't want to do it anymore. Not only football, but other sports as well. It just seems that football is the worst offender. I’ll step up and do it. We workout on Tue and Thu during the summer. 930-12. Strength/speed/jump/agility training and then some football stuff. That is 5 hours total a week. If you are out of town (whatever the reason), you are excused as long as you told me beforehand. Workout is online so you can do it if you miss. Try and makeup lifting if you miss. Haven’t done a 7 on 7 in 8 years. Don’t start conditioning running until after July 4th week. Where do you coach?
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Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 27, 2018 17:10:45 GMT -6
I've chimed in on this sort of thread already and I'll just say here too that I'm a Mon-Thur 9-11 guy for summer.
Mon-Wed lift for 45, run for 35, do some yoga and core work too. Thursday I would do football specifics for an hour and yoga for about 35 minutes.
My running is speed camp 2 days and agility drills 1 day. No "conditioning" at all.
We'll practice fast as flip and get in "shape" that way
I'm in Raleigh, NC. I will commit myself endlessly to planning and implementing your S&C program. HIRE ME.
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Post by silkyice on Jun 27, 2018 18:17:37 GMT -6
I’ll step up and do it. We workout on Tue and Thu during the summer. 930-12. Strength/speed/jump/agility training and then some football stuff. That is 5 hours total a week. If you are out of town (whatever the reason), you are excused as long as you told me beforehand. Workout is online so you can do it if you miss. Try and makeup lifting if you miss. Haven’t done a 7 on 7 in 8 years. Don’t start conditioning running until after July 4th week. Where do you coach? Tuscaloosa
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Post by s73 on Jun 27, 2018 18:17:48 GMT -6
I'm the "smarter not harder" guy.
I know we have to do stuff to compete but I think we have a pretty good balance for getting stuff done but still giving them time to be kids.
We go 9 days in June & 9 days in July. 2 hours field time and 1 hour weight room. We take 2 week off at end of school year, 2 weeks in the middle and 2 weeks at the end before the season starts.
I think it's enough to be effective but not too much. I also think it comes down to effective planning. Practice efficiency is HUGE IMO.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 27, 2018 19:00:58 GMT -6
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Post by gccwolverine on Jun 27, 2018 20:11:19 GMT -6
There's nothing wrong with 12-15 hours a week in the summer. We are 8-11 (generally off the field by 10:45) Monday-Thursday. Kids get Friday, Saturday, Sunday to do whatever they want plus 12-? during the week. If we didn't go at 8am 85% of our kids wouldn't be out of bed prior to 12 anyways.
I'm of the opinion people just don't want to work very hard, kids and adults included and that's sad.
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Post by carookie on Jun 27, 2018 20:25:37 GMT -6
There's nothing wrong with 12-15 hours a week in the summer. We are 8-11 (generally off the field by 10:45) Monday-Thursday. Kids get Friday, Saturday, Sunday to do whatever they want plus 12-? during the week. If we didn't go at 8am 85% of our kids wouldn't be out of bed prior to 12 anyways. I'm of the opinion people just don't want to work very hard, kids and adults included and that's sad. What about a 24+ hour week in the summer? Because THAT is what grind season is around here for many schools, and I think thats whats getting a lot of folks upset. Additionally, I think the premise many coaches are arguing here is there is a difference between 'working hard' and 'working a lot'. Many coaches confuse activity with action, and as such brag about their 20-25 hour a week summers implying that more time spent equates to hard work, when often times they are working no harder than the 12 hour team, just stretching it out over more time to give an appearance.
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Post by gccwolverine on Jun 27, 2018 20:40:03 GMT -6
There's nothing wrong with 12-15 hours a week in the summer. We are 8-11 (generally off the field by 10:45) Monday-Thursday. Kids get Friday, Saturday, Sunday to do whatever they want plus 12-? during the week. If we didn't go at 8am 85% of our kids wouldn't be out of bed prior to 12 anyways. I'm of the opinion people just don't want to work very hard, kids and adults included and that's sad. What about a 24+ hour week in the summer? Because THAT is what grind season is around here for many schools, and I think thats whats getting a lot of folks upset. Additionally, I think the premise many coaches are arguing here is there is a difference between 'working hard' and 'working a lot'. Many coaches confuse activity with action, and as such brag about their 20-25 hour a week summers implying that more time spent equates to hard work, when often times they are working no harder than the 12 hour team, just stretching it out over more time to give an appearance. 24+ is way to much. Like I said we got 12 8-11 M-TH. 45 min lift, 15 min agility / speed work, 45 min of D (indy, group, team some combination there of), 45 min of O (indy, group, team some combination there of). If we have a 7 on 7 it occurs in place of that 1.5 of O/D work, the big guys stay back and do OL/DL skills work while we go to 7on7. But I've found even coaches, I use that term loosely, don't want to work. They either aren't there every day, or if they are there that day they don't know what's going on or don't have a plan, or think football coaching is just done in practice and on Friday nights during games.
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Post by throwahitch on Jun 27, 2018 20:59:59 GMT -6
There's nothing wrong with 12-15 hours a week in the summer. We are 8-11 (generally off the field by 10:45) Monday-Thursday. Kids get Friday, Saturday, Sunday to do whatever they want plus 12-? during the week. If we didn't go at 8am 85% of our kids wouldn't be out of bed prior to 12 anyways. I'm of the opinion people just don't want to work very hard, kids and adults included and that's sad. While I do agree that most of them would sleep till 12 anyway, i think too many coaches use that excuse to start at 7-8 and work till 12.
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Post by coachklee on Jun 27, 2018 21:28:01 GMT -6
Is #GrindSeason killing basketball or baseball too? I think numbers are declining because football is difficult and it isn't easy to be successful. Football is dependent on strength speed and getting 11 players to do it right. When a program is down there is no one stud player that can change the whole season. Basketball and baseball can count on a small number of players and be successful. A football team can't have one star. Football teams can't win by scoring 1 run. A "game winner" in football needs either a successful series of plays, pass protection a good throw, a good catch, or some collection of events to work. A "game winner" in basketball could merely need an inbound and a quick flick of the wrist. I am not downgrading other sports, but summer basketball and baseball do just as much or more than a one or two hour work out 3 or 4 days a week. I don't work kids to death, but the kids that roll up in August and haven't done anything or tried to be a part of the team can just stay away. I am not #GrindSeason, but I am about kids who care. August guys don't give a rat's ass. Go have fun shooting the ball while we build around a group of dependable young men who have a goal of committing and being successful. No disrespect to your post, but weight lifting is important to being good at football and preventing injuries. It isn't unjust to ask kids to better themselves and their team. Our top 3 seniors are also basketball guys. As a football coach you need to reconcile that you are going to be short some guys in June. They’ll make it to July lifting/conditioning, TEAM Camp & 7-on-7s that count.
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Post by coachklee on Jun 27, 2018 21:42:38 GMT -6
Who's gonna be the first to implement this "new fangled" way of thinking? Who's gonna be seen as a guy who let another coach "out work" him? I have coached teams in the past who could show up and put a couple of weeks of hard work in and be ready to go come that first scrimmage. I have also coached teams where we could have practiced 12 hours a day for months and they still wouldn't be able to get out of their own way. I agree, the arms race is killing the sport. Not only driving kids away, but I am sure every one knows that one or two coaches in your building who just say they don't want to do it anymore. Not only football, but other sports as well. It just seems that football is the worst offender. I’ll step up and do it. We workout on Tue and Thu during the summer. 930-12. Strength/speed/jump/agility training and then some football stuff. That is 5 hours total a week. If you are out of town (whatever the reason), you are excused as long as you told me beforehand. Workout is online so you can do it if you miss. Try and makeup lifting if you miss. Haven’t done a 7 on 7 in 8 years. Don’t start conditioning running until after July 4th week. We are close...until July we are Mon, Wed, Thur 5:00-7:00...so 6 hours a week. In July we’ll be Mon & Wed 5:00-7:00 with 7-on-7s on Tue & Thur from about 6:00-7:30 so up to about 7 hours a week. And one of our JV Coaches is probably right that we do “too much” 7-on-7...
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Post by okiepadokie on Jun 27, 2018 21:53:14 GMT -6
Is #GrindSeason killing basketball or baseball too? I think numbers are declining because football is difficult and it isn't easy to be successful. Football is dependent on strength speed and getting 11 players to do it right. When a program is down there is no one stud player that can change the whole season. Basketball and baseball can count on a small number of players and be successful. A football team can't have one star. Football teams can't win by scoring 1 run. A "game winner" in football needs either a successful series of plays, pass protection a good throw, a good catch, or some collection of events to work. A "game winner" in basketball could merely need an inbound and a quick flick of the wrist. I am not downgrading other sports, but summer basketball and baseball do just as much or more than a one or two hour work out 3 or 4 days a week. I don't work kids to death, but the kids that roll up in August and haven't done anything or tried to be a part of the team can just stay away. I am not #GrindSeason, but I am about kids who care. August guys don't give a rat's ass. Go have fun shooting the ball while we build around a group of dependable young men who have a goal of committing and being successful. No disrespect to your post, but weight lifting is important to being good at football and preventing injuries. It isn't unjust to ask kids to better themselves and their team. Our top 3 seniors are also basketball guys. As a football coach you need to reconcile that you are going to be short some guys in June. They’ll make it to July lifting/conditioning, TEAM Camp & 7-on-7s that count. No, not a problem at all where I am our hoops coach makes his summer schedule around the weight room. I am referring to the fact that kids play summer baseball after coming off of spring baseball. They play a long basketball season and then do a bunch of basketball over the summer. Many play summer baseball and summer basketball. No one saying anything about the grind of those sports back to back to back over a 8 month period or even longer for those basketball/baseball/no football guys. I've been coaching long enough to figure out summer gym time. The point is that its more of a grind and more expensive to be involved in summer baseball and summer hoops and school baseball and school hoops but no one references low baseball and basketball numbers or a decline in participation in sports that take up more time than football and have more year round travel and practice than football. 5 positions needed in basketball to field a team and 9 in baseball. Football needs 22, and more with special teams. Football is hard. Many kids don't deal with things that are difficult very well. Some psycho Rambo coaches push it to a ridiculous level, some coaches don't do enough, some coaches strike a good balance. Numbers in football are down because it is easy to be soft and get beat, it is hard to convince kids to work to be tough so they can win especially once they have been soft and beaten, and the process to actually be good is hard and not immediately rewarding. Whereas a baseball team with three or four slugs might be lucky to have an outstanding pitcher carry them to a conference title, a district championship, and a regional post season game. A basketball team may have an incredible point or shooter that does the same. As we all know on this board, winning at football ain't easy and a lot of kids have a hard time accepting the input required to get the output desired.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 27, 2018 21:55:54 GMT -6
If you NEED to grind in the summer your programming the rest of the year is probably pretty poor. Once again strength is a long game. Small incremental gains. If you think working out four or five days a week in June is getting you ready for football in Sept you didn't pay attention in physiology class.
This is going to be season 19 for me. I have spent my entire career in Texas, and Louisiana. The time demands we have placed on the kids over that time period have exploded. We have gone from truly voluntary work outs in June & July aimed at maintenance to guilt tripping kids for getting a part time job or going on vacation.
We go the bare minimum that won't get me fired. M/W/F for about 90 minutes in June and July. No 7 on 7. No football drills. A week off the first week of summer. Two straight weeks off in the middle of the summer and a week off before fall camp. Even coming off the best season at the school in twelve years I have had to explain and justify it. So I get the political necessity of grinding in some places. But the reality is grinding does not make you better. It makes you worse. If you win anyway it's because everyone you play is grinding too.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Jun 27, 2018 23:09:30 GMT -6
I was the HC of our varsity baseball team this year. I had some kids that were decent baseball players that would be very good football players. I tried to hook them into the football program but they all said the same thing - "I don't want to spend every day of my summer vacation working my ass off in the heat while my friends go to the beach and go on vacation just to end up playing 10 or 12 games. I'd rather start practicing baseball in the middle of January and start playing games in February. I only have to prepare for one month before I get to play 30 games."
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Post by gccwolverine on Jun 27, 2018 23:50:46 GMT -6
I was the HC of our varsity baseball team this year. I had some kids that were decent baseball players that would be very good football players. I tried to hook them into the football program but they all said the same thing - "I don't want to spend every day of my summer vacation working my ass off in the heat while my friends go to the beach and go on vacation just to end up playing 10 or 12 games. I'd rather start practicing baseball in the middle of January and start playing games in February. I only have to prepare for one month before I get to play 30 games." So we should lower the bar? We should encourage less? Let's just make it recess time I guess at least then everyone will have fun.
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Post by Chris Clement on Jun 28, 2018 5:42:06 GMT -6
They’re children. It’s high school football. It’s not actually important, no matter how much we might care about it. If they’re not having fun then they’re not only within their rights but they SHOULD quit. They’re not morally beholden to a silly game.
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Post by coachjm on Jun 28, 2018 5:45:56 GMT -6
We talk to our kids and parents at our parent meeting each year about how our summer program will be as minimum as we can make it to ensure that our kids will still be healthy when we start practice in the fall. All of it is TRULY optional as it is my belief that the players have to value the importance of it not our coaches. Our Seniors each year lead it and set the expectations for their peers. Over the last 7 years we typically have close to 100% attendance of the players in town (kids leave for family vacation/mission trips ect of course) we work with the other sport coaches to ensure nothing conflicts and try to have workouts compliment each other so the lift follows a hoop session for example so kids can come to the school one time get their workout in and leave.
Ultimately, I used to be a grinder during the summer and kids would come and workout because it was my expectations for them and we cared about one another, however, at this point I'm not grinding it is their expectation for each other which puts a lot less pressure on them. Also when it comes to the season we have a lot less burnout and I know that has made us much better at the end of the year as we continue to improve for a longer period of time.
Finally, had a new coach join our staff this year, it is obvious he is a very good coach and knows the game. This change I can see seems a bit crazy to him with our summer culture and atmosphere it has been interesting for me to see as he essentially has the perspective I would have had.
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Post by mackball on Jun 28, 2018 7:16:07 GMT -6
Baseball and Basketball kids play GAMES in the Summer. Games are fun and hell I would love to play in a baseball game or hoop game every night, I can't blame them.
Let those kids play in their games, encourage them to come to the WR, if they don't at least you know they are competing a few nights a week. Should they be playing and lifting in the morning, yes, but reality is now they probably won't.
Don't be a fool and rip those kids, you need the 2nd baseman as your corner, the catcher as your Mike, the point guard as you slot, and the FWD as your TE. Just accept that its their 2nd sport. If they are competing all summer in a different sport, then you know on 3rd down when needed those guys are going to be the guys you rely on.
Get them in when the season starts. Have to bend now and do whatever it takes for numbers. Scary and different than how we grew up, but it is here and I feel its the only way to have consistent numbers in your program. These are the times we are living in. Some states Football is still King, but others you have to adapt or you will be destroyed!
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Post by throwahitch on Jun 28, 2018 7:18:45 GMT -6
I was the HC of our varsity baseball team this year. I had some kids that were decent baseball players that would be very good football players. I tried to hook them into the football program but they all said the same thing - "I don't want to spend every day of my summer vacation working my ass off in the heat while my friends go to the beach and go on vacation just to end up playing 10 or 12 games. I'd rather start practicing baseball in the middle of January and start playing games in February. I only have to prepare for one month before I get to play 30 games." So we should lower the bar? We should encourage less? Let's just make it recess time I guess at least then everyone will have fun. Take it the way you want, however, people can keep calling 15 year olds soft because they don’t play football like they did in the 60s-80s, or we can look at what’s different between now and then. Guys I understand society has changed and that parents aren’t pushing kids to stick with something as much as they used to, but I remember to this day how hacked off my dad got at me when he found out I had to be at summer workouts rather than his construction company everyday of the summer. To me, we’ve moved the Goal post, and most of us are acting like it’s the kids and the parents that have changed. When 20-30 years ago football was a fall sport, now it’s a year long part time job. Yeah, you still have the players who really really want to play, but you don’t have the numbers like the older teams. If you’re okay with that, more power to you. However, if what you say is true about it’s the kids getting soft and the parents not being parents. How much longer can you keep pushing the grind season and not lose total interest?
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Post by throwahitch on Jun 28, 2018 7:22:06 GMT -6
Baseball and Basketball kids play GAMES in the Summer. Games are fun and hell I would love to play in a baseball game or hoop game every night, I can't blame them. Let those kids play in their games, encourage them to come to the WR, if they don't at least you know they are competing a few nights a week. Should they be playing and lifting in the morning, yes, but reality is now they probably won't. Don't be a fool and rip those kids, you need the 2nd baseman as your corner, the catcher as your Mike, the point guard as you slot, and the FWD as your TE. Just accept that its their 2nd sport. If they are competing all summer in a different sport, then you know on 3rd down when needed those guys are going to be the guys you rely on. Get them in when the season starts. Have to bend now and do whatever it takes for numbers. Scary and different than how we grew up, but it is here and I feel its the only way to have consistent numbers in your program. These are the times we are living in. Some states Football is still King, but others you have to adapt or you will be destroyed! Some coaches are unwilling for football to be a players second sport. Like it’s so arrogant on us as coaches to think that since we coach the best game in sports that the kids should throw down their balls and bats to get out there and run gassers and lift weights. If the player likes another sport more than football, and you get them to the field. You’re not going to magically make them addicted to playing football.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 28, 2018 8:06:08 GMT -6
I think "the grind" is also a holdover from when we were technology poor. "The Grind" was necessary when I was a player because we watched film literally on a film projector. As a young coach we were stacking VCR's on top of each other to dub the game tape. It took huge amounts of man hours to game prep and just break down your own film. DSV was so cutting edge when it came out and it still required tons of man power. How many threads do we have about game prep and weekend meetings? The reality is technology has made all of those things very antiquated. "The Grind" is just another holdover from the dark ages of football.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Jun 28, 2018 9:08:04 GMT -6
I was the HC of our varsity baseball team this year. I had some kids that were decent baseball players that would be very good football players. I tried to hook them into the football program but they all said the same thing - "I don't want to spend every day of my summer vacation working my ass off in the heat while my friends go to the beach and go on vacation just to end up playing 10 or 12 games. I'd rather start practicing baseball in the middle of January and start playing games in February. I only have to prepare for one month before I get to play 30 games." So we should lower the bar? We should encourage less? Let's just make it recess time I guess at least then everyone will have fun. Where did I say that? I also coach football and we go 4:30 - 7:30 Monday through Friday, all summer (with the exception of the CIF mandated dead period). IMO that's too much of a "grind" but I'm not the HC so I'm on board with it. You can be Coach Hardass and tell kids they're soft, uninspired, lazy, unmotivated, etc. while they walk away muttering that you're a d-bag or you can adjust to make things more fun for them. The law of diminishing returns definitely applies to teenage boys during the summer. That's my $.02.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2018 9:35:41 GMT -6
There has to be a point to the grind. Just doing things so we can say we are out working everybody is a point of diminishing returns. Holding kids for for more than 90 minutes imo is road kill.Kids have to know by nature of event that what is happening is important. In my case, only 3 coaches really ever show up with any sort of regularity. One of those pops his head in the door then disappears to his office.Again I would venture to that most coaches, if they were honest, including me, really have no business holding summer anything. It really is just a lot of horse play.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 28, 2018 9:54:10 GMT -6
A couple of thoughts. I have seen the phrase "kids need time to be kids"...used several times. What exactly does that mean in 2018? Kids need time to sit indoors and text/play fortnight?? What exactly are the 15-19 year olds doing (I only work with the little ones now) 2nd, I agree it does seem like everyone is demanding far too much. Unfortunately, much like society, the high school athletic landscape seems to be growing a gap between the haves and have nots. If there is a "have" in your path, and somehow their community has embraced the #grind culture (and they have good coaching) well...how do you beat them? 1) Summer off. Limited amount of responsibilities. Probably sleeping in, maybe staying up late. Not worrying about having too many responsibilities but just free. 2) This part seems to presuppose that grinding is beneficial and leads to winning. If they are better than you then they most likely will beat you, if not they most likely will not. Grinding should not improve their shot, unless it helps them steal players. Of course that presupposes that we have found the magic number of practice time ourselves, and that doing anymore or any less is worse. I am not sure how #grind really affects #1. To be crystal clear, I am not a grind guy. One of the reasons I left college football coaching was that I just didn't think the best use of my limited time on earth should be spent watching 12 hours of cut ups. I am just pointing out that in one thread, the majority of coaches are bemoaning the impact of social media and technology on society (in general) and in particular the youth of society...and now I am seeing coaches advocating for more time to allow access. Obviously my view is biased by my upbringing before mobile devices and social media. So I was asking what do kids do? What is a "kid being a kid" in 2018. As far as #2, my point was that unfortunately, some of the juggernauts have incorporated the grind into their culture. While I agree that the grind isn't the sole purpose of their winning, if you create that culture and the community embraces it it essentially cements the importance of football in a community, and THAT leads to winning.
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Post by junior6589 on Jun 28, 2018 11:35:49 GMT -6
We go 4-6 PM Monday - Thursday in late June and July with the last week of July off before camp. Coaches need to work during the daytime too. Get the kids in, get 'em out. Attendance has been great for a small program.
Baseball guys can leave early and we understand when a kid has a game. All about communication about when you won't be there. We barely get any basketball kids. Football interferes with their "open gym" time during the fall.
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Post by familyman56 on Jun 28, 2018 14:25:16 GMT -6
They’re children. It’s high school football. It’s not actually important, no matter how much we might care about it. If they’re not having fun then they’re not only within their rights but they SHOULD quit. They’re not morally beholden to a silly game.
Respectfully disagree that "It's not actually important". In our area we have school choice. Show me a perennial losing football program and I'll show you a school with net negative enrollment from a school choice perspective. Granted there are other factors but I'd argue quality of football is a major one. It's not just the players, non-playing kids want to be part of school with pride, and the football program leads that - it sets the tone for the whole athletic department, and the whole district. Losing those kids means losing state per pupil dollars. Taking it further, perception of school district impacts housing prices, which then affects the ability of a community to attract investment for development. It's more than a game.
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