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Post by craines10 on Feb 5, 2018 13:33:41 GMT -6
Last night Malcolm Butler supposedly was told right before the national anthem he would not be playing in the Super Bowl...When asked about it Belechik said it was a decision made to give the team the best chance to win...This guy played 98% of the snaps up until Super Bowl Sunday...what package is there that he doesnt fit in the grand scheme of things? I believe there is more to it and we will have to wait to find out.
My question is: If you KNOW there is a possibility you will not be playing a starter for whatever reason...when do you tell him? Surely not right before the national anthem...
If you have been in that situation: How did you handle it? When was the player informed he would not be playing?
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Post by coachphillip on Feb 5, 2018 14:30:42 GMT -6
If it's disciplinary in nature, I tell the kid as soon as the offense has occurred and the staff has made their decision. If that's on a Monday, then he finds out as early as Monday. If it's because of something he did that day, then he finds out before we even leave the school for the game.
But, apparently, this was not disciplinary in nature. As being such, I have no idea when I would tell a kid because I have never played a kid for 98% of the snaps in the regular season and then decided it would be in the best interest of the team to reduce that number to zero for the championship game.
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Post by blb on Feb 5, 2018 14:47:03 GMT -6
Hard to believe if he practiced all week as a starter and was then told just before the game.
Perhaps related to his not being on team plane Monday (he said he was sick and went to hospital).
Or something he did or didn't do after they arrived in Minneapolis.
For now Belichick deserves benefit of the doubt.
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 5, 2018 15:09:04 GMT -6
Rowe said post game that he wasn't told until pretty much kickoff that he was in there for Butler.
BB said it was a "football decision", and then explicitly denied it was disciplinary - which I'd tend to believe, I would think he'd just no comment the whole thing if it was.
Butler said he wasn't give a reason - again, not the behavior you'd expect if he was being punished for something.
There's a story behind it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't make much sense to anyone but BB. Seems like he makes at least one controversial personnel decision every year without explanation. He usually gets away with it, but this one just might have cost him a ring.
My guess - it's as simple as he decided he'd rather lose with guys he liked/trusted than put Butler in. Doesn't explain why Butler played almost every snap during the year, but again, a lot of these decisions don't make sense from the outside.
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Post by rystaylo on Feb 5, 2018 17:32:40 GMT -6
Rumor is he missed curfew and under the influence.
Then got into argument with coaching staff.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2018 18:36:06 GMT -6
Saw an unconfirmed report he missed a curfew and got caught with weed , more to follow
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Post by 53 on Feb 6, 2018 6:58:30 GMT -6
Missed curfew and we confronted about it he reportedly called out BB for spending too much time with his GF and not having the team ready for the SB
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Post by silkyice on Feb 6, 2018 7:43:16 GMT -6
Missed curfew and we confronted about it he reportedly called out BB for spending too much time with his GF and not having the team ready for the SB It is still undefeated!!! |
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Post by WingTheT on Feb 6, 2018 8:53:49 GMT -6
He was apparently smoking dope, late for curfew, got caught, got mad at the coaches and was acting a fool.
I applaud BB for being able to stick to his guns and his team rules. Just blows my mind how a guy is so selfish and would let his team down like that. Then again, it happens all the time so I shouldn't be too surprised.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 6, 2018 9:08:03 GMT -6
He was apparently smoking dope, late for curfew, got caught, got mad at the coaches and was acting a fool. I applaud BB for being able to stick to his guns and his team rules. Just blows my mind how a guy is so selfish and would let his team down like that. Then again, it happens all the time so I shouldn't be too surprised. Don’t disagree. But why didn’t they say it was a displinary reason? And why does he get to play special teams. Something doesn’t quite add up. |
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Post by MICoach on Feb 6, 2018 9:13:49 GMT -6
We had our starting QB get in trouble between school and the game on Friday once, that was a blast. Coach and AD were livid, perhaps to the point of overreacting (we had had another kid get in a bunch of trouble the previous week), principal calmed them down and we sat him for a quarter.
The kid was told he would go in when we decided, but he didn't even know if he should be dressing until about a minute before warm ups. The JV QB about shat his pants when we told him he was starting the game.
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Post by Defcord on Feb 6, 2018 9:14:23 GMT -6
He was apparently smoking dope, late for curfew, got caught, got mad at the coaches and was acting a fool. I applaud BB for being able to stick to his guns and his team rules. Just blows my mind how a guy is so selfish and would let his team down like that. Then again, it happens all the time so I shouldn't be too surprised. I agree with your point. The actions are selfish. However, in the some ways they are also not selfish because his next contract will surely be hurt by this situation. Sometimes short-sidedness can be a killer. |
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Post by pvogel on Feb 6, 2018 9:33:38 GMT -6
I'm all for sticking to your guns and doing the best for the program.
But I wavered once. It was when I was a Baseball HC (Interim though - never coached baseball and was leaving the school after the season, so take that with a grain of salt). We're in the state playoffs. Had a strict policy about if you're late, you don't play. Our junior starting pitcher was not there on time. Since our #1 threw the night before, it would've left us in a real bad spot. I was ticked. But I sat the seniors down. Explained our options. I told them its their season and if they think it is fair for him to play and make up for it with conditioning the next day then we'll roll with that. So we did. Ran the absolute pi$$ out of him the next day. But we won that game and kept winning too.
Given the choice again I would do the same thing even if it was my program for the long run. For football I think the rule would be more of a sit first quarter if you're late. The hardest thing to balance is that in a way you're not just punishing him - you're punishing all the other kids that put in their own hard work. Its a tough choice to make and it may feel like you're sacrificing values or being inconsistent. But I think the key is that if you explain it, have the team on board, and some alternate punishment, then it can work out.
But I also am not gonna second guess anything Belichik does. He's absolutely earned that.
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Post by 53 on Feb 6, 2018 10:02:10 GMT -6
Some are acting like Belichik and Craft have a pretty good little pissing contest going too.
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Post by coachmonkey on Feb 6, 2018 10:11:29 GMT -6
I'm all for sticking to your guns and doing the best for the program. But I wavered once. It was when I was a Baseball HC (Interim though - never coached baseball and was leaving the school after the season, so take that with a grain of salt). We're in the state playoffs. Had a strict policy about if you're late, you don't play. Our junior starting pitcher was not there on time. Since our #1 threw the night before, it would've left us in a real bad spot. I was ticked. But I sat the seniors down. Explained our options. I told them its their season and if they think it is fair for him to play and make up for it with conditioning the next day then we'll roll with that. So we did. Ran the absolute pi$$ out of him the next day. But we won that game and kept winning too. Given the choice again I would do the same thing even if it was my program for the long run. For football I think the rule would be more of a sit first quarter if you're late. The hardest thing to balance is that in a way you're not just punishing him - you're punishing all the other kids that put in their own hard work. Its a tough choice to make and it may feel like you're sacrificing values or being inconsistent. But I think the key is that if you explain it, have the team on board, and some alternate punishment, then it can work out. But I also am not gonna second guess anything Belichik does. He's absolutely earned that. Then why have the rule? |
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Post by WingTheT on Feb 6, 2018 10:15:35 GMT -6
He was apparently smoking dope, late for curfew, got caught, got mad at the coaches and was acting a fool. I applaud BB for being able to stick to his guns and his team rules. Just blows my mind how a guy is so selfish and would let his team down like that. Then again, it happens all the time so I shouldn't be too surprised. Don’t disagree. But why didn’t they say it was a displinary reason? And why does he get to play special teams. Something doesn’t quite add up. Yeah I am with you. I don't get that either and was thinking that too. I know that BB likes to be secretive about almost EVERYTHING, but why not just say "He violated team rules so we're benching him." instead of saying I've made my choice. That's the end of this conversation. |
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Post by pvogel on Feb 6, 2018 10:18:31 GMT -6
I'm all for sticking to your guns and doing the best for the program. But I wavered once. It was when I was a Baseball HC (Interim though - never coached baseball and was leaving the school after the season, so take that with a grain of salt). We're in the state playoffs. Had a strict policy about if you're late, you don't play. Our junior starting pitcher was not there on time. Since our #1 threw the night before, it would've left us in a real bad spot. I was ticked. But I sat the seniors down. Explained our options. I told them its their season and if they think it is fair for him to play and make up for it with conditioning the next day then we'll roll with that. So we did. Ran the absolute pi$$ out of him the next day. But we won that game and kept winning too. Given the choice again I would do the same thing even if it was my program for the long run. For football I think the rule would be more of a sit first quarter if you're late. The hardest thing to balance is that in a way you're not just punishing him - you're punishing all the other kids that put in their own hard work. Its a tough choice to make and it may feel like you're sacrificing values or being inconsistent. But I think the key is that if you explain it, have the team on board, and some alternate punishment, then it can work out. But I also am not gonna second guess anything Belichik does. He's absolutely earned that. Then why have the rule? So that those instances are the exception. Over the course of a 30+ game season that was the only instance that a player was late to pregame (although we did bench a kid for being late to school check-in early in the season) If no rule was in place then that probably wouldn't be the case. I get it. Don't have rules that you don't intend to follow. But I thought the adjustment and compromise I made was fair and justified. |
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Post by CoachSP on Feb 6, 2018 10:22:07 GMT -6
Some are acting like Belichik and Craft have a pretty good little pissing contest going too. After that story came out a few weeks back, I can believe it |
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Post by coachmonkey on Feb 6, 2018 10:23:41 GMT -6
So that those instances are the exception. Over the course of a 30+ game season that was the only instance that a player was late to pregame (although we did bench a kid for being late to school check-in early in the season) If no rule was in place then that probably wouldn't be the case. I get it. Don't have rules that you don't intend to follow. But I thought the adjustment and compromise I made was fair and justified. You had to justify not punishing the whole team to win. In that case, I'd argue just change the rule so the player is punished individually like you did. Did you change the rule after that or leave it in place? |
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Post by pvogel on Feb 6, 2018 10:27:34 GMT -6
So that those instances are the exception. Over the course of a 30+ game season that was the only instance that a player was late to pregame (although we did bench a kid for being late to school check-in early in the season) If no rule was in place then that probably wouldn't be the case. I get it. Don't have rules that you don't intend to follow. But I thought the adjustment and compromise I made was fair and justified. You had to justify not punishing the whole team to win. In that case, I'd argue just change the rule so the player is punished individually like you did. Did you change the rule after that or leave it in place? I left the place. But if a kid were to show up late to football pregame he would sit a quarter. And thats where I stand now. Was just commenting on the sticking to your guns v. finding a different punishment spectrum debate. Lots of different answers and arguably none of them are truly "right". |
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Post by mnike23 on Feb 6, 2018 10:29:05 GMT -6
this is exactly why i dont think you have clear cut rules/punishments together.
late to practice=dont start friday
miss practice=sit a quarter
etc.
each situation should be dictated on the premise that nobody knows for sure what is the 100% truth and some things are unavoidable.
a couple years back our team rules were very vauge(on purpose) so that we could justify each negative action with the punishment we seemed to fit the "crime".
late to practice=position coach will handle it 1 time, position group the next time, the unit the 3rd time, the team the 4th time, removed from team/head coaches discretion.
i honestly felt that this was the best in our situation. and will use that the next time I am able too.
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Post by Coach Vice on Feb 6, 2018 11:04:31 GMT -6
My FIRST year as a head coach, I inherited a program that had MASSIVE discipline problems. I set the rules early on and kids adapted very quickly. One of the biggest issues was that kids missed practice in the years prior to me being there. The first week of the season I had a few kids miss practice and I suspended both of them for the first quarter of the game. I told them as soon as possible. However, the last week of the season we had a "Senior Skip Day" on Monday (we were 3-5 at the time, and out of a playoff berth). I told our seniors that if they missed school they would NOT be able to practice and they WOULD NOT PLAY IN THE GAME. I had 13 seniors miss practice on that day. Normally, I would tell them right away. However, I knew if I did that they would cash in the season early. So I didn't say anything about it until game day. I brought up 10 sophomores and not ONE of those 13 seniors played Friday night.......ON SENIOR NIGHT. Ten minutes before the game I ran down the personnel on all specials and Offense/Defense and none of them included those seniors. Needless to say, it was a eye opener. The following Monday all I did was field angry phone calls and parent meetings. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.
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Post by newhope on Feb 6, 2018 11:20:57 GMT -6
You can bet it's disciplinary. Coach is just saying "football decision" to avoid spelling out the disciplinary issues. It's still a "football decision"--he decided this guy's talent wasn't worth the problems so he decided not to play him. Message sent to the other 50 something players and all future players. Maybe he didn't decide until game time.
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Post by kcbazooka on Feb 6, 2018 12:24:19 GMT -6
Pvogel, for what it's worth - I hate it when coaches put it up to the team to excuse a kid that has broken a rule. 99% of the time the players will vote for the kid to play. In my career, I've known several coaches have done this - and when the kid is voted onto play they rationalize it by saying the team wanted it. I think that's an excuse. As a coach, it's your job, perhaps with the input of your staff to set the rules. If you're not going to enforce the rule , don't have it. Or if you are going to let the team decide to enforce let them vote on every rule infraction.
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Post by Defcord on Feb 6, 2018 12:34:55 GMT -6
My FIRST year as a head coach, I inherited a program that had MASSIVE discipline problems. I set the rules early on and kids adapted very quickly. One of the biggest issues was that kids missed practice in the years prior to me being there. The first week of the season I had a few kids miss practice and I suspended both of them for the first quarter of the game. I told them as soon as possible. However, the last week of the season we had a "Senior Skip Day" on Monday (we were 3-5 at the time, and out of a playoff berth). I told our seniors that if they missed school they would NOT be able to practice and they WOULD NOT PLAY IN THE GAME. I had 13 seniors miss practice on that day. Normally, I would tell them right away. However, I knew if I did that they would cash in the season early. So I didn't say anything about it until game day. I brought up 10 sophomores and not ONE of those 13 seniors played Friday night.......ON SENIOR NIGHT. Ten minutes before the game I ran down the personnel on all specials and Offense/Defense and none of them included those seniors. Needless to say, it was a eye opener. The following Monday all I did was field angry phone calls and parent meetings. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. The only thing that confuses me with this is how did you dish out reps that week in practice following skip day. If I knew I wasn't going to be playing the seniors and rolling with sophomores, I would want to be able to give those sophomores as many reps as possible so they could most be prepared for the game. When that happened, I assume the seniors would figure out that I had made my decision. |
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Post by 53 on Feb 6, 2018 12:38:50 GMT -6
He might have just waited till game time so Craft couldn't get that involved too.
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Post by Coach Vice on Feb 6, 2018 13:52:17 GMT -6
My FIRST year as a head coach, I inherited a program that had MASSIVE discipline problems. I set the rules early on and kids adapted very quickly. One of the biggest issues was that kids missed practice in the years prior to me being there. The first week of the season I had a few kids miss practice and I suspended both of them for the first quarter of the game. I told them as soon as possible. However, the last week of the season we had a "Senior Skip Day" on Monday (we were 3-5 at the time, and out of a playoff berth). I told our seniors that if they missed school they would NOT be able to practice and they WOULD NOT PLAY IN THE GAME. I had 13 seniors miss practice on that day. Normally, I would tell them right away. However, I knew if I did that they would cash in the season early. So I didn't say anything about it until game day. I brought up 10 sophomores and not ONE of those 13 seniors played Friday night.......ON SENIOR NIGHT. Ten minutes before the game I ran down the personnel on all specials and Offense/Defense and none of them included those seniors. Needless to say, it was a eye opener. The following Monday all I did was field angry phone calls and parent meetings. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. The only thing that confuses me with this is how did you dish out reps that week in practice following skip day. If I knew I wasn't going to be playing the seniors and rolling with sophomores, I would want to be able to give those sophomores as many reps as possible so they could most be prepared for the game. When that happened, I assume the seniors would figure out that I had made my decision. It was a while ago so I don't remember exactly how it went down, but I do know that we got smoked by 40....... so my guess is that the JV didn't get many reps that week. We were 3-6 and out of it and we were facing a 5-3 team who needed the win to get in. What I DO remember is that the message I wanted sent was much more important than the win. We didn't have any issues with Senior Skip Day after that. |
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Post by jrk5150 on Feb 6, 2018 13:59:05 GMT -6
This is the NFL, not HS or college football, and this is a guy who coached LT in the coked up 80's. Give me a break. If that was Brady, nothing happens. Ultimately the players are responsible for their performance. You want to send a message? Fine - sit him for a quarter, max. You don't screw over the other 52 or whatever players on the roster and cost them a ring because you want to send a selective message about your selective rules. You put him out there and let the chips fall - if he fails, you rip him a new one publicly. But you don't cost your team the championship, not at this level.
I totally agree that, if what's out there is true, Butler was being a selfish POS - he was sick, had a bad week of practice, then he's out Friday night getting hammered and bringing women into his room after curfew (implied by Brandon Browner). Dumb. But it's still the NFL, and ultimately performance rules.
As for the Kraft/Belichick thing - I think it was overplayed in the media, but we'll know soon enough. If Kraft did what was reported, there's no way BB stays. And if he's not staying, what would be the point of sending a message to Butler? At that point, just get the ring...
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Post by Defcord on Feb 6, 2018 14:00:10 GMT -6
The only thing that confuses me with this is how did you dish out reps that week in practice following skip day. If I knew I wasn't going to be playing the seniors and rolling with sophomores, I would want to be able to give those sophomores as many reps as possible so they could most be prepared for the game. When that happened, I assume the seniors would figure out that I had made my decision. It was a while ago so I don't remember exactly how it went down, but I do know that we got smoked by 40....... so my guess is that the JV didn't get many reps that week. We were 3-6 and out of it and we were facing a 5-3 team who needed the win to get in. What I DO remember is that the message I wanted sent was much more important than the win. We didn't have any issues with Senior Skip Day after that. I am all for expectations and holding kids to expectations so I wasn't questioning your decision at all. I just was kind of wondering how it all played out. I couldn't have given reps to seniors knowing I wouldn't have played them so I was curious about that aspect of things. My assumption was that if seniors missed reps that they could have figured out that they weren't playing, but probably a bad assumption. If they were smart enough to figure that out, then they probably would have been smart enough not to skip in the first place. |
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Post by pistolwhipped on Feb 6, 2018 17:13:38 GMT -6
Butler's statement kinda puts B.B. in a position that he has to explain.
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