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Post by mhyland on Feb 1, 2018 10:53:50 GMT -6
I read an article recently that spoke about training "Race Horses" and not "Plow Horses", and coaching up enthusiasm versus toughness...
In the article the guy talks about a ton of different ideas, but one thing that he said that sort of stuck with me was that he thinks TOUGHNESS is mainly genetic and that you can't coach it as much as you think. He rips apart coaches who model their style of coaching after a drill sergeant and hang their hat on the old "We are going to out work every other team!" I am with a very UNENTHUSIASTIC group right now...
He says if you aimlessly grind your kids down in hopes that "outworking" the other teams, then you will have kids who are good at grinding, but he says a plow horse who grinds all day can't win a race with a race horse.
ANYWAY... He talks about this idea of coaching up ENTHUSIASM, as opposed to trying to coach up toughness by grinding your kids into paste...
Is this guy crazy, or is he on to something...?
Do any of you out there value coaching up enthusiasm versus toughness?
Have you pulled back on the grinding you used to put the kids through and had any good results?
HOW is it that you personally coach up enthusiasm?
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Post by 3rdandlong on Feb 1, 2018 10:56:35 GMT -6
Do you have a link to this article?
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Post by QBCoachDurham on Feb 1, 2018 11:10:51 GMT -6
To me, nothing is more important than toughness. It's what we hang our hats on. You can be tough without grinding kids down. We never practice for more than two hours, and rarely go that long during the season, but we are known as the toughest, most physical team in our area and our kids take pride in that. A bunch of enthusiastic, soft kids will get you beat
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Post by realdawg on Feb 1, 2018 11:13:33 GMT -6
Usually enthusiasm leads to working harder and toughness.
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Post by tothehouse on Feb 1, 2018 11:18:13 GMT -6
I'm working on this right now. I'm mixing in both. I'm working in a lot of competitive games. Some of tough and create toughness. At the same time...these "games" are done in teams. And the teams have to be enthusiastic or they lose points. I'm about to start an "Olympics" to coincide with the impending Olympics. There will be 4 teams and different events. Kids on the team can only participate in 3 events out of 8. Therefore...they have to draft their team wisely based on the events and individual strengths. And again...enthusiasm will be factored into the times, lifts, etc. Maybe a 1 second penalty is accessed because the whole team wasn't going wild for their teammates. Also, I did an experiment last Friday and got huge results. I read on Twitter about teams that bring their team to watch other sports/events on campus. And started my crusade. I told the whole football team that we were going to make up the student section in our basketball game. Playing in one of the toughest conference in the state of CA and having the lowest enrollment in the conference we've been getting waxed in all sports for about the last 4 years. Last 2 seasons our basketball (boys) have won 1 league game. So...I got pissed. Our student section was non existent and our Admin/Activities Director are anemic in making things happen. That leads me to last Friday. We're playing a good team. Our football team sets the tone by calling out one of the other team's skinny point guards while on the free throw line..."you skipped leg day...clap clap, ---- clap, clap, clap" etc. But what is funny is the morning PE class on Thursday and Friday of last week I TAUGHT THEM CHEERS!!!! Not joking. Not the leg day one...but just simple stuff...like when our player is on the free throw line...do this. When their player is on the free line do this...etc. It was homecoming...and the stands were PACKED...because the football program was there. Normally our attendance is a joke. But Friday was different. And the players noticed. After the first quarter we're leading. At halftime we're down by 7. After 3 we're down by 1. And then the fourth quarter happened. I'm doing the live stream broadcast for the game, but have direct site line to our team. I'm staring at them waving my arms for the team to stand up and really get it going. Game is tight with 3 minutes left. Our boys are starting to go crazy... And what does that make everyone else do in the stands??? Go crazy as well. You can't NOT go crazy when these guys are going nuts. Down the stretch the other team has an offensive foul. We get a bucket to cut it to a 1 point lead for the other team. We foul with 10 seconds left. Their kid makes both (as we were yelling and kicking for him to miss). We inbound the ball...drive down...launch a 3. Kid misses. Fellow football player gets the offensive board. Throws it to his brother....another football player...1 second left...ball leaves his hand....BOOM!!!!! Game tying 3 pointer. Our dingus' rush the court!!!! But quickly turn around knowing we have overtime. In OT...the swell of emotion from the team...the crowd...let's us outscore the other team 11-6 in OT...and we win by 5. We really rush the floor now. The point of that story is...YOU MAKE YOUR ENTHUSIASM. YOU COACH IT. TEACH IT. LIVE IT. And when you get a result like we did Friday...it can become contagious. So we've built on that momentum this week. Tonight...we're going to a socc.. (I don't like that word) game...Nobody goes to socc.. games. But we are. And we're going to be crazy loud. Then in April we're sending the football team to our school's dance performance. After each day...people clap. We're going to go crazy for the girls. Showing support for everything. I think the impact will be major. I also think there is something to making players understand making the uncomfortable comfortable....when talking about lifting and pushing. Put that sweat in the bank and make withdrawels Friday nights in the fall. And if you're curious. Here is the link to the game I talked about. www.facebook.com/NUMinerVision/videos/1963973677256417/Flash forward to the 1:14:00 mark to the see the dramatic 3 pointer. |
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 1, 2018 11:49:21 GMT -6
He thinks toughness is genetic? Is that an evidence-based position?
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Post by realdawg on Feb 1, 2018 11:57:06 GMT -6
Idk if it is genetic. But I do think it has a lot to do with the way you were raised as a young child.
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Post by Chris Clement on Feb 1, 2018 12:01:40 GMT -6
That’s, like, the opposite of genetics.
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Post by joelee on Feb 1, 2018 12:01:46 GMT -6
Enthusiasm more important than physical toughness, yes. More important than mental toughness, no.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 1, 2018 12:03:20 GMT -6
I have found that if you get kids strong and in shape, if they know what to do and how to do it, they will usually be tough. Kids freaking amaze me how tough they can be.
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Post by fshamrock on Feb 1, 2018 12:04:22 GMT -6
He thinks toughness is genetic? Is that an evidence-based position? that's an interesting question, tough to pin down evidence-based positions on any nature/nurture stuff, not really tough to pin down but way too easy to find evidence to support whatever side of the debate you feel like falling on. I'd say to a degree toughness probably is genetic, doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that some people feel pain/discomfort more acutely than others. Any rate, it reminds me of a great story This sweet little old lady ran the daycare in this town I coached, was a big fan of the football team, so I'd drop my kids off on Mondays and she'd wanna talk about the game Friday night...so twice in this one game our punt returner didn't catch the ball, just let it hit the ground and roll, so when I drop the kids off we have this conversation: "hey why were ya'll telling him not to catch the punts?" "ma'am we didn't tell him he just didn't want to catch 'em I guess" "eh....his daddy was a p****y too" |
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Post by Defcord on Feb 1, 2018 12:12:36 GMT -6
The "guy" says that you can't get a plow horse to out run a race horse. But couldn't you argue you that you can't get a race horse to out plow a plow horse.
I think when it comes to toughness and enthusiasm that you are dealing with terms that are ambiguous. What they mean to one coach, they may not mean to another coach.
One coach may say a player is ENTHUSIASTIC because he shows up ready to put in the work in the weight room no matter what.
Another coach may say that his player is TOUGH because he never misses a workout even though he has other things he could be doing.
When it comes to football, give me the horse that does "his" job.
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Post by fshamrock on Feb 1, 2018 12:21:10 GMT -6
The "guy" says that you can't get a plow horse to out run a race horse. But couldn't you argue you that you can't get a race horse to out plow a plow horse. I think when it comes to toughness and enthusiasm that you are dealing with terms that are ambiguous. What they mean to one coach, they may not mean to another coach. One coach may say a player is ENTHUSIASTIC because he shows up ready to put in the work in the weight room no matter what. Another coach may say that his player is TOUGH because he never misses a workout even though he has other things he could be doing. When it comes to football, give me the horse that does "his" job. well said unfortunately, "find a way to do your f'n job" doesn't sell many ebooks |
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Post by fkaboneyard on Feb 1, 2018 13:07:03 GMT -6
The "guy" says that you can't get a plow horse to out run a race horse. But couldn't you argue you that you can't get a race horse to out plow a plow horse. I think when it comes to toughness and enthusiasm that you are dealing with terms that are ambiguous. What they mean to one coach, they may not mean to another coach. One coach may say a player is ENTHUSIASTIC because he shows up ready to put in the work in the weight room no matter what. Another coach may say that his player is TOUGH because he never misses a workout even though he has other things he could be doing. When it comes to football, give me the horse that does "his" job. Pretty much what I was going to say, only a lot more eloquently than I could say it. |
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Post by Defcord on Feb 1, 2018 13:53:59 GMT -6
The "guy" says that you can't get a plow horse to out run a race horse. But couldn't you argue you that you can't get a race horse to out plow a plow horse. I think when it comes to toughness and enthusiasm that you are dealing with terms that are ambiguous. What they mean to one coach, they may not mean to another coach. One coach may say a player is ENTHUSIASTIC because he shows up ready to put in the work in the weight room no matter what. Another coach may say that his player is TOUGH because he never misses a workout even though he has other things he could be doing. When it comes to football, give me the horse that does "his" job. Pretty much what I was going to say, only a lot more eloquently than I could say it. Thanks...not very often I get accused of being eloquent. |
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Post by Defcord on Feb 1, 2018 13:58:11 GMT -6
The "guy" says that you can't get a plow horse to out run a race horse. But couldn't you argue you that you can't get a race horse to out plow a plow horse. I think when it comes to toughness and enthusiasm that you are dealing with terms that are ambiguous. What they mean to one coach, they may not mean to another coach. One coach may say a player is ENTHUSIASTIC because he shows up ready to put in the work in the weight room no matter what. Another coach may say that his player is TOUGH because he never misses a workout even though he has other things he could be doing. When it comes to football, give me the horse that does "his" job. well said unfortunately, "find a way to do your f'n job" doesn't sell many ebooks It would be a fun book to read though! |
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Post by NC1974 on Feb 1, 2018 14:17:00 GMT -6
I definitely don't think it has to be either or. I think it has to do with how you try to instill toughness. If you are trying to instill toughness by making kids run 6 miles a day, than that might be counter productive. But on the other hand, if you're trying to instill it by making OL sustain a drive block for 6 seconds or through the whistle, I think you can do that and still avoid grinding them down.
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Post by 50slantstrong on Feb 1, 2018 14:40:58 GMT -6
I think both come organically if you have a good weight room program.
With that being said, I do agree there needs to be more emphasis on enthusiasm over toughness. Not saying I coach at the best program ever, but the culture around it is predicated on excitement to lift and practice; I can't remember losing a game (15 the last 4 seasons) because the other team was "tougher" than us.
The enthusiasm comes from grinding day after day and reminding, if not beating it into their heads, the kids how beneficial practice and the weight room are and praising progress whenever possible. I also believe our enthusiasm is partially because very rarely, if ever do we talk about games and opponents.
That's what works for us and our kids. I'm sure there are other programs who do it other ways
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Post by coolhandluke on Feb 1, 2018 14:48:46 GMT -6
“Hard work without enthusiasm leads to tedium. Enthusiasm without industriousness leads to unrealized potential. When combined, they cement a solid foundation.”
John Wooden
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Post by silkyice on Feb 1, 2018 16:32:22 GMT -6
“Hard work without enthusiasm leads to tedium. Enthusiasm without industriousness leads to unrealized potential. When combined, they cement a solid foundation.” John Wooden We all just got taught a lesson. Wow |
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Post by bruinfb on Feb 1, 2018 17:36:29 GMT -6
well said unfortunately, "find a way to do your f'n job" doesn't sell many ebooks I'd buy that book |
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Post by bruinfb on Feb 1, 2018 17:54:47 GMT -6
I do not want to discuss semantics on this topic, but I do find that both words describe characteristics that we want in our players. As was stated earlier, what is enthusiasm to one person is toughness to another. Is it because a player is tough that he takes on a block with proper technique and proper force, or is it because that player is enthusiastic about winning and performing his given task? I think we can call it either, the key is for coaches to be able to explain the proper attitude that players must have to play successfully. There is a lot of good stuff on this board about coaching attitude and culture. If we can get all of our players to play in the manner we know is necessary (call it spirit, enthusiasm, toughness, or intensity), then we can reach our potential as a team
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 1, 2018 20:07:12 GMT -6
I just got done reading a book called "performance under pressure" basically talks about building a "COTE" of arms COTE is an acronym for Confidence, Optimism, ,Tenacity, and Enthusiasm...which i guess could make up your definition of toughness or grit or maybe a few more other adjectives....anyway one of the points (among many) the book made was if your blood sugar level gets too low you aren't going to have many positive attributes...
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 2, 2018 7:25:40 GMT -6
After spending a night thinking about this, there is no way you can create a tough team by just "grinding"...there is much more that that although that can be a part of it..IMO..kids, all people really, will fight for something bigger than themselves, their family, their group/team/brother....build trust confidence, stamina, and to me most importantly love
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Post by Down 'n Out on Feb 2, 2018 8:24:28 GMT -6
Toughness is cultural, and not cultural as in your high school program but as in from the time kids are little (4-5 years old) imo. That's impossible to create. What we can build is enthusiasm and resiliency.
So a kid takes a hard shot over and over but keeps coming back. Is that toughness or resiliency and enthusiasm?
Are they the same thing?
Is "toughness" a umbrella term for all of these characteristics that were trying to develop.
Ive never understood the drill sergeant approach. I don't see how it can be successful. It works for the military because they have their people 24 hours a day, weve got ours for 2 or 3 max.
Kids cant be build up by "grinding" them, theyre built up be setting and achieving reasonable short term goals. 1 more sprint, 1 more pushup, 1 more round in the hitting drill. 1 today + 1 tomorrow + 1 the next day + 1 the next day and so on until we get to where I wanted them to be and where they never thought they could be. If I ask for 10 today they will falter and fail. Not because theyre not tough but because we as coaches ask too much of them too soon.
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Post by coachwoodall on Feb 2, 2018 10:21:03 GMT -6
Okay first of all for you dame yankees, you don't plow with horse, you plow with a mule.
And second of all, if you did run a 'plow' horse versus a race horse; of course the race horse is going to win.
A Thoroughbred horse will beat a Quarter horse in a 10 furlong race every single time no matter how you train them. Just like a Quarter horse will beat the Thoroughbred in a 2 furlong race.
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Post by mhyland on Feb 2, 2018 10:39:57 GMT -6
Keep in mind when I was looking for this article I was looking up information on how to increase team speed. The team Ive been with has always emphasized grinding as what will make us beat other teams. and we grind and we still dont beat other teams who we r probably working harder than. It was the stuff about enthusiasm being more important than coaching toughness that just sparked my imagination. Here is the article: theperfectmethod.net/2017/10/19/10-sprint-facts-wish-everyone-understood/BTW incredible stuff from all you guys, I keep being persuaded back and forth. |
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Post by mhyland on Feb 2, 2018 10:43:52 GMT -6
Toughness is cultural, and not cultural as in your high school program but as in from the time kids are little (4-5 years old) imo. That's impossible to create. What we can build is enthusiasm and resiliency. So a kid takes a hard shot over and over but keeps coming back. Is that toughness or resiliency and enthusiasm? Are they the same thing? Is "toughness" a umbrella term for all of these characteristics that were trying to develop. Ive never understood the drill sergeant approach. I don't see how it can be successful. It works for the military because they have their people 24 hours a day, weve got ours for 2 or 3 max. Kids cant be build up by "grinding" them, theyre built up be setting and achieving reasonable short term goals. 1 more sprint, 1 more pushup, 1 more round in the hitting drill. 1 today + 1 tomorrow + 1 the next day + 1 the next day and so on until we get to where I wanted them to be and where they never thought they could be. If I ask for 10 today they will falter and fail. Not because theyre not tough but because we as coaches ask too much of them too soon. Coach this is perfect. This is how I sort of feel about the subject. I grew up in a rough neighborhood and we were just tougher than any of the teams we played against, because all the surroubding towns were filled with rich soft kids. The only teams that ever beat us were more skilled, they didnt out tough us. Right now I coach against the school I played for and year after year when we play them they r just tougher than us nmw. I really do believe what area you grow up in and your upbringing determines the majority of how tough you are. And you do often see the whole...hes a wussy, hia brother was a wussy, and so was his daddy... |
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Post by conrad81 on Feb 2, 2018 10:52:04 GMT -6
Usually enthusiasm leads to working harder and toughness. Yea, I was going to ask why are they mutually exclusive? I've had teams that were enthusiastic, but not as tough/physical. I've had physically/mentally tough kids who weren't very enthusiastic or hyped. They both did well. I've had both and they did well. I do think physical toughness is inborn, mental toughness can be developed through competitions, situations, etc. Enthusiasm is a reflection of the positive results of whatever it is they are doing. If they are working, grinding and not seeing results - enthusiasm will wane. I'll to the quote above to bring it full circle - working harder and toughness usually leads to greater success which in turn, fuels enthusiasm. |
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Post by fantom on Feb 2, 2018 10:55:20 GMT -6
Keep in mind when I was looking for this article I was looking up information on how to increase team speed. The team Ive been with has always emphasized grinding as what will make us beat other teams. and we grind and we still dont beat other teams who we r probably working harder than. It was the stuff about enthusiasm being more important than coaching toughness that just sparked my imagination. Here is the article: theperfectmethod.net/2017/10/19/10-sprint-facts-wish-everyone-understood/BTW incredible stuff from all you guys, I keep being persuaded back and forth. I was wondering about the context of the article when you mentioned it in the OP. The author is writing with a narrow focus- how to make better sprinters. A lot of the things that he's talking about- hypertrophy, physical strength, stamina- may not apply to sprinters but certainly apply to football. You can make a case for the original proposition, that enthusiasm is more important than grinding, but this article alone does not do it when it comes to building football players. |
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