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Post by silkyice on Jan 3, 2018 18:20:50 GMT -6
The only different level Saban, Venables, and Smart are on is having WAY better players than Patterson does. Patterson has developed the most elegant and flexible way to call a defense. His language, wristband system, split field / divorced front ability to control the entire field with limited teaching is borderline genius. He also has done way more with less than any of the guys mentioned above. I'd agree they get better athletes. Patterson is a really good college coach. Saban and them are schematically on an NFL level though. My only comment here is: Decided schematic advantage - Charlie Weis - Notre Dame, Florida, Kansas
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Post by joelee on Jan 3, 2018 19:15:44 GMT -6
I agree. Complex doesn't equal better. Patterson created something. The guys that copy NFL stuff aren't smarter in many cases they are good at copying. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm a copycat. Using the argument that Belichick, Venables, and Brown are better because they are very complicated copycats is not the right way to do justice to how good of coaches they are and why they are good. They are good because they are great teachers, they understand what they are looking at quickly, and they conter move quickly. Patterson is a copycat like you, me, and every other coach. What he does is good. He is a good college coach. Who said what Saban/Smart/Venables/etc are doing is complex or complicated?Um, you did?
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Post by **** on Jan 3, 2018 19:20:23 GMT -6
Patterson is a copycat like you, me, and every other coach. What he does is good. He is a good college coach. Who said what Saban/Smart/Venables/etc are doing is complex or complicated?Um, you did? I never once said what they do is complex or complicated.
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Post by **** on Jan 3, 2018 19:26:53 GMT -6
I'd agree they get better athletes. Patterson is a really good college coach. Saban and them are schematically on an NFL level though. My only comment here is: Decided schematic advantage - Charlie Weis - Notre Dame, Florida, Kansas Didn't realize scheme was the be all and end all.
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Post by coachklee on Jan 3, 2018 20:03:15 GMT -6
I'd agree they get better athletes. Patterson is a really good college coach. Saban and them are schematically on an NFL level though. My only comment here is: Decided schematic advantage - Charlie Weis - Notre Dame, Florida, Kansas Unclear where you are going with this post? Usually on the same page with you...
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Post by coachklee on Jan 3, 2018 20:19:26 GMT -6
Interesting responses...hope to hear more, especially next week! I kind of get what **** is talking about. There is a distinct difference between matching a “man” vs a “zone”. I still put Patterson on the same rung as the rest of those guys. His personality & knowledge has taken a non-BCS / non-Power 5 school to the verge of being a College Football Playoff Team (A game vs Baylor away from it in 2014 & pushing Oklahoma this year). He might not be quite as sophisticated as Saban, but IMO that doesn’t mean he is a lesser coach. Really hard to compare when you get down to it. He definitely dominated the conversation as alluded to by someone else, but I think that’s because he is very confident with what he knows... I guess the other thing I took away & discussed with my HC was the idea that Bielema & Patterson could coach at any level & be successful...HS, College, NFL...bottom line is that they constantly demonstrated they understood fits & how the OL WAS or WASN’T getting a “hat-on-a-hat” which for where I’m at is what HS ball really comes down to...Holgorsen, Fedora & Babers were solid, but they didn’t necessarily vocalize that understanding (of the OL & D Front) the same way.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 3, 2018 21:33:31 GMT -6
I'd agree they get better athletes. Patterson is a really good college coach. Saban and them are schematically on an NFL level though. Maybe I was watching a different game than you. Here is what i saw in the Rose Bowl. Kirby Smart comes out in the 3-4 runs all sorts of coverages, fronts, looks (very NFLish and half the time they weren't gap sound). GETS TORCHED way worse than TCU did in their 2 games in a half of football. Second Half adjustment: 4-2 Box / Man Free with some 3 match thrown in. Which is code for "my guys are better than yours." 3rd Qtr they completely shut down OU. That isn't NFL scheming and no it wasn't because they have some crosser matchup scheme that Patterson isn't aware of. Can I triple like this post?
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Post by silkyice on Jan 3, 2018 21:56:49 GMT -6
My only comment here is: Decided schematic advantage - Charlie Weis - Notre Dame, Florida, Kansas Didn't realize scheme was the be all and end all. I was saying just the opposite. Pretty sure you know the story, but I am going to share anyways. Charlie Weis was OC of the Patriots and won, I think, three super bowls. Gets hired by Notre Dame and promptly insulted every non-NFL football coach by saying the his teams “would have a decided schematic advantage.” In other words, he is so much smarter than everyone else and his schemes and play calling are superior. That he is on a different “level” than everyone else. Didn’t turn out so well for him at ND, UF, and Kansas. But yet the Patriots seemed to do and are still doing just fine without him, and stupid ole d2 Brian Kelly seems to be doing ok at ND. I just look a little side-eyed when people start talking about some coach being on a different schematic level. Is Saban at the top of the game schematically? Probably. Is this the most important thing he does. No. Recruiting, the Process, and attention to detail - along with facilities and being at Alabama where even Shula and Dubose and NINE other coaches have had ten win seasons. Taking nothing away from Saban. He is the best. Maybe of all time. Is his overall coaching and career on a different level than Patterson? Yep. Not even close. Is his defense schematically on a different “NFL” level than Patterson? Get out of town - come on.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 3, 2018 21:59:06 GMT -6
My only comment here is: Decided schematic advantage - Charlie Weis - Notre Dame, Florida, Kansas Unclear where you are going with this post? Usually on the same page with you... See above
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Post by fantom on Jan 3, 2018 22:12:45 GMT -6
Pretty sure you know the story, but I am going to share anyways. Charlie Weis was OC of the Patriots and won, I think, three super bowls. Gets hired by Notre Dame and promptly insulted every non-NFL football coach by saying the his teams “would have a decided schematic advantage.” In other words, he is so much smarter than everyone else and his schemes and play calling are superior. That he is on a different “level” than everyone else. When Al Groh got hired at Virginia he said that he'd be playing chess while everybody else was playing checkers, Think every coach, assistant or head, on his schedule had that in mind?
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Post by **** on Jan 3, 2018 22:22:13 GMT -6
Didn't realize scheme was the be all and end all. I was saying just the opposite. Pretty sure you know the story, but I am going to share anyways. Charlie Weis was OC of the Patriots and won, I think, three super bowls. Gets hired by Notre Dame and promptly insulted every non-NFL football coach by saying the his teams “would have a decided schematic advantage.” In other words, he is so much smarter than everyone else and his schemes and play calling are superior. That he is on a different “level” than everyone else. Didn’t turn out so well for him at ND, UF, and Kansas. But yet the Patriots seemed to do and are still doing just fine without him, and stupid ole d2 Brian Kelly seems to be doing ok at ND. I just look a little side-eyed when people start talking about some coach being on a different schematic level. Is Saban at the top of the game schematically? Probably. Is this the most important thing he does. No. Recruiting, the Process, and attention to detail - along with facilities and being at Alabama where even Shula and Dubose and EIGHT other coaches have had ten win seasons. Taking nothing away from Saban. He is the best. Maybe of all time. Is his overall coaching and career on a different level than Patterson? Yep. Not even close. Is his defense schematically on a different “NFL” level than Patterson? Get out of town - come on. Do you know both Saban’s and Patterson’s system?
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Post by joris85 on Jan 4, 2018 7:09:58 GMT -6
****"Complex - Adjective: Composed of many interconnected parts" In other words: If a defensive system has more interconnected parts (or more ways to skin a particular cat, eg. ways of playing cover 3), it is a more complex defense. In reading your post on the previous page, where you compare Saban's system to Patterson's, you state that Saban changes the way his players defend the opposing offense based on what they throw at them, even if it'd all be the same in other systems. In other words, Saban increases the number of interconnected parts (or what-ifs). You deem that "better" and "at another level than other coaches' defenses", while for me that only comes down to "more complex". It seems that Patterson's defense is "not as complex" as Saban's defense, but not necessarily worse or better, just a different approach.
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Post by **** on Jan 4, 2018 7:25:03 GMT -6
you state that Saban changes the way his players defend the opposing offense based on what they throw at them, even if it'd all be the same in other systems. Tell me where I said this. All I posted was terminology of each system.
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Post by **** on Jan 4, 2018 7:25:27 GMT -6
In other words, Saban increases the number of interconnected parts (or what-ifs). You deem that "better" and "at another level than other coaches' defenses", while for me that only comes down to "more complex". Ahh so having an answer for 4 verticals against cover 3 is no better than not having an answer for 4 verticals against cover 3. Makes sense.
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Post by **** on Jan 4, 2018 7:37:20 GMT -6
**** "Complex - Adjective: Composed of many interconnected parts" In other words: If a defensive system has more interconnected parts (or more ways to skin a particular cat, eg. ways of playing cover 3), it is a more complex defense. In reading your post on the previous page, where you compare Saban's system to Patterson's, you state that Saban changes the way his players defend the opposing offense based on what they throw at them, even if it'd all be the same in other systems. In other words, Saban increases the number of interconnected parts (or what-ifs). You deem that "better" and "at another level than other coaches' defenses", while for me that only comes down to "more complex". It seems that Patterson's defense is "not as complex" as Saban's defense, but not necessarily worse or better, just a different approach. Do you know both Saban’s and Patterson’s system?
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Post by fantom on Jan 4, 2018 10:08:01 GMT -6
**** "Complex - Adjective: Composed of many interconnected parts" In other words: If a defensive system has more interconnected parts (or more ways to skin a particular cat, eg. ways of playing cover 3), it is a more complex defense. In reading your post on the previous page, where you compare Saban's system to Patterson's, you state that Saban changes the way his players defend the opposing offense based on what they throw at them, even if it'd all be the same in other systems. In other words, Saban increases the number of interconnected parts (or what-ifs). You deem that "better" and "at another level than other coaches' defenses", while for me that only comes down to "more complex". It seems that Patterson's defense is "not as complex" as Saban's defense, but not necessarily worse or better, just a different approach. Do you know both Saban’s and Patterson’s system? I don't and don't know how many people here do. I certainly don't know enough to declare either coach's system better than the other. For all I know the best technical DC in the country is at some 8-man school in western Iowa.
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Post by **** on Jan 4, 2018 10:19:56 GMT -6
Do you know both Saban’s and Patterson’s system? I don't and don't know how many people here do. I certainly don't know enough to declare either coach's system better than the other. For all I know the best technical DC in the country is at some 8-man school in western Iowa. I do. That's why I said what I said. I don't make full opinions with half facts.
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Post by fantom on Jan 4, 2018 10:41:07 GMT -6
I don't and don't know how many people here do. I certainly don't know enough to declare either coach's system better than the other. For all I know the best technical DC in the country is at some 8-man school in western Iowa. I do. That's why I said what I said. I don't make full opinions with half facts. OK. You may have noticed that some here do that.
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Post by joelee on Jan 4, 2018 10:52:38 GMT -6
**** "Complex - Adjective: Composed of many interconnected parts" In other words: If a defensive system has more interconnected parts (or more ways to skin a particular cat, eg. ways of playing cover 3), it is a more complex defense. In reading your post on the previous page, where you compare Saban's system to Patterson's, you state that Saban changes the way his players defend the opposing offense based on what they throw at them, even if it'd all be the same in other systems. In other words, Saban increases the number of interconnected parts (or what-ifs). You deem that "better" and "at another level than other coaches' defenses", while for me that only comes down to "more complex". It seems that Patterson's defense is "not as complex" as Saban's defense, but not necessarily worse or better, just a different approach. Do you know both Saban’s and Patterson’s system? I know enough about both to have an educated opinion. Beyond looking at a playbook I have listened to many of these guys talk and teach. That's how I know what I know about who is on who's level. And that was the genesis of this anyway, Gary Patterson talking and dominating a room of winning football coaches. Everyone on this board has access to both Sabans playbook and Pattersons stuff. Maybe there is a group of us on here who think being a great DC goes beyond playbooks. (I am still not conceding that Pattersons X and O's are inferior in any way.)
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Post by joelee on Jan 4, 2018 10:54:43 GMT -6
I agree. Complex doesn't equal better. Patterson created something. The guys that copy NFL stuff aren't smarter in many cases they are good at copying. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm a copycat. Using the argument that Belichick, Venables, and Brown are better because they are very complicated copycats is not the right way to do justice to how good of coaches they are and why they are good. They are good because they are great teachers, they understand what they are looking at quickly, and they conter move quickly. Patterson is a copycat like you, me, and every other coach. What he does is good. He is a good college coach. Who said what Saban/Smart/Venables/etc are doing is complex or complicated? Can you go ahead and detail for me who did invent the split field divorced front call system then?
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Post by joris85 on Jan 4, 2018 11:15:24 GMT -6
you state that Saban changes the way his players defend the opposing offense based on what they throw at them, even if it'd all be the same in other systems. Tell me where I said this. All I posted was terminology of each system. I was referring to this statement. Schematically speaking they do things similar to what Saban does. Patterson and many others do not. Example: Saban and them will determine how to play shallow crossers by type of coverage (man match, zone match, man). Paterson will not. After rereading, I now understand what you said and why you said it. It's probably just me, but the way you conveyed your message made it sound like: "Saban's smarter, because he has more answers than the rest of them. I know this, because I read both of the playbooks (and you didn't)." Not saying you said that specifically, but that's how it came across. And this has nothing to do with what I know of the playbooks. Back on topic: I look forward to watching the ESPN film room version. Hec, probably I'll learn something from Patterson and the crew.
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Post by bruinfb on Jan 4, 2018 11:16:15 GMT -6
I enjoyed when Applewhite called out Patterson for having their defenders always look at their wrist band when they were bringing pressure. It looked like Patterson was a little embarrassed but did not deny it. I do not know the story, but it sounds like when TCU first started using the wrist band system on defense, offensive teams caught on to this and knew when they were bringing pressure. That was a cool anecdote. I thought Patterson did the best job of pointing things out. Thought Bielma and Holgorsen were next best. It is an enjoyable way to watch the games. I'm glad ESPN does it.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 4, 2018 11:32:54 GMT -6
Didn't realize scheme was the be all and end all. I was saying just the opposite. Pretty sure you know the story, but I am going to share anyways. Charlie Weis was OC of the Patriots and won, I think, three super bowls. Gets hired by Notre Dame and promptly insulted every non-NFL football coach by saying the his teams “would have a decided schematic advantage.” In other words, he is so much smarter than everyone else and his schemes and play calling are superior. That he is on a different “level” than everyone else. Didn’t turn out so well for him at ND, UF, and Kansas. But yet the Patriots seemed to do and are still doing just fine without him, and stupid ole d2 Brian Kelly seems to be doing ok at ND. I just look a little side-eyed when people start talking about some coach being on a different schematic level. Is Saban at the top of the game schematically? Probably. Is this the most important thing he does. No. Recruiting, the Process, and attention to detail - along with facilities and being at Alabama where even Shula and Dubose and EIGHT other coaches have had ten win seasons. Taking nothing away from Saban. He is the best. Maybe of all time. Is his overall coaching and career on a different level than Patterson? Yep. Not even close. Is his defense schematically on a different “NFL” level than Patterson? Get out of town - come on. Do you know both Saban’s and Patterson’s system? I know them enough. Not professing to be a guru. But coach, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth here. You made a post that proclaimed that certain coaches were schematically superior on a NFL level. Saban and Smart were included here who just happen to be playing for the national championship. So it seems that that is why they are winning according to you. Then I post about NFL Charlie Weis saying that he would bring a "decided schematic advantage" and that didn't turn out so well. My point was three-fold. 1)schematic advantage might not be that big of a deal. 2)The NFL isn't really schematically superior in such a way that is on another level. 3)Arrogance of those who think it is Then you post saying that you didn't realize that scheme was the end all and be all. Which was my main point. I post some more saying that I was saying that scheme isn't that important. Then you post back asking if I really know their systems, again implying how important scheme is. So first Saban is on different level because of scheme, then scheme isn't end all be all, then I say that even though Saban might be better schematically but he is really winning because of more important factors. Then you ask if I even know their systems! So a group of Coachhuey coaches brag on Patterson. You talk about how Saban is on a different level. Then act like you are the judge and jury of which scheme is better or more complex or NFL level or whatever. When you get down to it, you are essentially saying that you are even smarter than Patterson. Like Patterson can't even understand Saban's NFL defense. But yet you as a high school DC have it all figured out. You might know more about their defenses then me. Maybe. Just a few threads over about rip/liz I tried to point out and included Saban video and an exact time in that video to go to that refuted what you were saying about it. You have also ascribed to the dragon style beats crane style defensive philosophy which essentially says scheme is the end all and be all - not players, not the weight room, not technique, not fundamentals, not execution. In other words, you sound just like Charlie Weis and we are lucky to just be breathing the same air you breathe.
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Post by **** on Jan 4, 2018 11:36:11 GMT -6
Patterson is a copycat like you, me, and every other coach. What he does is good. He is a good college coach. Who said what Saban/Smart/Venables/etc are doing is complex or complicated? Can you go ahead and detail for me who did invent the split field divorced front call system then? lol Belichick has been doing it for over 30 years. Patterson was a young pup at Tenn Tech when Belichick was doing this stuff. This chit is not new in football, and Patterson didn't invent this concept.
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Post by joelee on Jan 4, 2018 11:37:36 GMT -6
I enjoyed when Applewhite called out Patterson for having their defenders always look at their wrist band when they were bringing pressure. It looked like Patterson was a little embarrassed but did not deny it. I do not know the story, but it sounds like when TCU first started using the wrist band system on defense, offensive teams caught on to this and knew when they were bringing pressure. That was a cool anecdote. I thought Patterson did the best job of pointing things out. Thought Bielma and Holgorsen were next best. It is an enjoyable way to watch the games. I'm glad ESPN does it. One of those unintended consequences you get when you try something for the first time or "invent" it. The evolution then is either put every call on the band or no calls on the band. You sometimes don't think of those details till later, when you are experimenting.
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Post by **** on Jan 4, 2018 11:38:49 GMT -6
Do you know both Saban’s and Patterson’s system? I know enough about both to have an educated opinion. Beyond looking at a playbook I have listened to many of these guys talk and teach. That's how I know what I know about who is on who's level. And that was the genesis of this anyway, Gary Patterson talking and dominating a room of winning football coaches. Everyone on this board has access to both Sabans playbook and Pattersons stuff. Maybe there is a group of us on here who think being a great DC goes beyond playbooks. (I am still not conceding that Pattersons X and O's are inferior in any way.) If you knew enough about both you would know where they rank. Gary Patterson is better than everybody in that room. There is no doubt. I like Patterson, but he's not on that level. Having access doesn't mean you understand the material.
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Post by joelee on Jan 4, 2018 11:40:06 GMT -6
I know enough about both to have an educated opinion. Beyond looking at a playbook I have listened to many of these guys talk and teach. That's how I know what I know about who is on who's level. And that was the genesis of this anyway, Gary Patterson talking and dominating a room of winning football coaches. Everyone on this board has access to both Sabans playbook and Pattersons stuff. Maybe there is a group of us on here who think being a great DC goes beyond playbooks. (I am still not conceding that Pattersons X and O's are inferior in any way.) If you knew enough about both you would know where they rank. Gary Patterson is better than everybody in that room. There is no doubt. I like Patterson, but he's not on that level. Having access doesn't mean you understand the material. Wow, you are awesome. Have a nice life.
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Post by **** on Jan 4, 2018 11:58:07 GMT -6
You might know more about their defenses then me. Maybe. Maybe? You can answer their defensive questions from now on.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 4, 2018 12:13:01 GMT -6
I cannot wait for more film room Monday night!
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Post by spartandefense on Jan 4, 2018 13:19:33 GMT -6
Your Quote:
"What's even crazier is that Saban, Venables, Smart, and Don Brown are on an entirely different level than he is."
We are all making the assumption that you think that these 4 guys are better schematically than Patterson. Your main argument was how they handle crossers and Saban and Smart have more options (btw Georgia got torched on crossers in the 1st half of the rose bowl). By your logic I could say Patterson is a better coach because his blitz wrist band system can bring close to 120 different movements and pressures.
I believe Saban has a great system and is a great defensive coach. He has done it at multiple stops with varying talent levels. Kirby Smart? He has done it at Bama and Georgia. Both schools have top 5 talent in the nation. Venables? His defenses got a lot more dominant when he got to Clemson. I am not familiar with Brown so I won't comment.
I was at the Peach bowl in person last yr to see Bama play live. You know when I knew Washington was in trouble? When their corner could handle John Ross 1v1. Everyone else in the nation had to double him. Bama just loaded the box and the game was over. You know when I knew Clemson was in trouble on Monday? When Bama could run 2 man and still stop Clemson's run game. Awesome job getting into those defenses -and they are coached up fundamentally, but tell me how often you as a DC can run 2 man and stop and dominant spread running team with elite talent. To me it's my 4th string LB is an army all american and therefore I can not be gap sound and still stop you.
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