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Post by RuningOutOfOptions on Sept 14, 2017 7:20:42 GMT -6
putting an ultimatum on the kids. there is no "ultimatum" There is a STANDARD players are expected to uphold when they wear the program's jersey; they represent something bigger than their own personal interests. We wouldn't entertain any other political fetish to use our program as a soapbox "ultimatum = a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations." "If you kneel you get benched" sounds pretty much like a great example of an ultimatum to me.
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Post by silkyice on Sept 14, 2017 7:26:15 GMT -6
Exactly. You're becoming a representative for the school and the team. I'm not gonna lose potential recruits and booster money because a few kids want attention. Why not just leave them in the fieldhouse until its over? Do they HAVE to pray with the team also? I think the whole Kapernick thing was less about protest and more about pub, but I also think in this situation the coach was setting up a showdown with two snot wiping kids. As for the remark about booster money and recruits are we still talking about high school? There has been a booster club at every school I have been and I don't think any of them would hurt the program because of something like this. Its 99% players parents anyway. How do you think the booster's get the money? Mainly through ad and sign sales. Good chance those could drop.
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 7:45:11 GMT -6
there is no "ultimatum" There is a STANDARD players are expected to uphold when they wear the program's jersey; they represent something bigger than their own personal interests. We wouldn't entertain any other political fetish to use our program as a soapbox "ultimatum = a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations." "If you kneel you get benched" sounds pretty much like a great example of an ultimatum to me. that's probably where the disconnect resides; how the world is interpreted. If you see rules and standards not as guideposts but vindictive punishments against your personal freedom of expression, then fight the power, amirite? We are obligated to be representatives of the team, program, school and by extension...the school board. If I, as a coach, use my title as "Coach so-and-so from City High" advocating for teenage strippers, I am performing outside the guidelines expected of me and subject to disciplinary action because I'm ruining the brand of those above institutions. You're going to be frustrated if you chose to be ignorant of the rule in the game of life
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Post by RuningOutOfOptions on Sept 14, 2017 7:52:21 GMT -6
"ultimatum = a final demand or statement of terms, the rejection of which will result in retaliation or a breakdown in relations." "If you kneel you get benched" sounds pretty much like a great example of an ultimatum to me. that's probably where the disconnect resides; how the world is interpreted. If you see rules and standards not as guideposts but vindictive punishments against your personal freedom of expression, then fight the power, amirite? We are obligated to be representatives of the team, program, school and by extension...the school board. If I, as a coach, use my title as "Coach so-and-so from City High" advocating for teenage strippers, I am performing outside the guidelines expected of me and subject to disciplinary action because I'm ruining the brand of those above institutions. You're going to be frustrated if you chose to be ignorant of the rule in the game of life I see that point of course, I believe though that having the conversation with the kids is more effective than giving them an ultimatum. I believe ignoring it will also be more effective than the same ultimatum. And if you want to advocate for teenage strippers or not, is completely not the point in this discussion. and if the point you were trying to make is that the institution is ruined by players kneeling, how strong is that institution?
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 9:21:45 GMT -6
I hear this parroted over and again in this thread as the (self righteous) justificiation from dividing/deviating from the TEAM. WHAT "injustice" are you referring to that is backed up with statisitcal evidence? The attitudes and motivations behind these victim campaigns isn't about righting some wrong, its about political power thrust, like getting aggressively hostile with a McDonalds manager because you got pickles on your McCrap burger. There is no real crime, youre just forcing someone to give you attention while you see how far you can push things to your will (and,most importantly, not be accountable for your own actions) My son is 'black'. I can assure you there is nothing holding him back in society. The only thing that will hold him back is a lack of self-reliance and personal accountability. He isn't victimized by some inherent boogeyman system of supremacy. Quite the opposite, in fact The only way to be " oppressed" in America is to have no education (no skills), no job and have ridiculous financial overhead (have a kid). This is true regardless of race, sex or orientation If we're moving the goalposts and talking about police interactions, it isn't that difficult to comprehend. Police are not judges. When police stop you, that is not the time to plead your case or offer up your best Matlock defense. Idiots that can't comprehend this, have a bad time...but its their own fault. Regards to the football team National Anthem - Is there a difference between being in the stands as the audience and sitting vs being a member of the team on the field? Do you make a distinction there between what significance the position has? You'd have to ask yourself why is this now becoming a meme when things actually were much worse in America? You'll realize this is just a fad, just like Breast Cancer Awareness month where every kid on the roster has to be mummified in pink athletic tape. None of these kids are advocates of Breast Cancer and even if they were, the high school venue isn't the place. They're simply mimicking what the NFL bozos do Laquan Macdonald was executed by a cop and then the incident was buried by the supposedly "good cops" who were on the scene. Were it not for a single dash cam video that somehow escaped the evidence purge, the incident would have remained buried. If you don't think that is injustice, then I have to believe you are being willfully ignorant. And for some white guy to claim that people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps because he has heroically and single-handedly saved some black kid from generational poverty and violence is the height of arrogance and audacity.
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Post by CS on Sept 14, 2017 10:22:51 GMT -6
Why not just leave them in the fieldhouse until its over? Do they HAVE to pray with the team also? I think the whole Kapernick thing was less about protest and more about pub, but I also think in this situation the coach was setting up a showdown with two snot wiping kids. As for the remark about booster money and recruits are we still talking about high school? There has been a booster club at every school I have been and I don't think any of them would hurt the program because of something like this. Its 99% players parents anyway. How do you think the booster's get the money? Mainly through ad and sign sales. Good chance those could drop. I stated in a later post that what would end up happening is that they would run the coach off before the money stopped coming in. That is the more realistic scenario in my opinion. The admin would fold and put the coach on administrative leave or something of that nature and the asst. that gets the job would get rid of the kids and everyone would be happy again.
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 11:03:30 GMT -6
for some white guy to claim that people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps because he has heroically and single-handedly saved some black kid from generational poverty and violence is the height of arrogance and audacity. I guess I don't understand what this means. Are you assuming what "race" I am? I'm not sure what you're insinuating, but your ad hominem is clear. IMO its pretty racist to say that anyone with dark skin in America is biologically predisposed for a life of poverty, which from what I'm reading above, is what you're saying. how is this NOT the answer to life? people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own.... are you saying that people shouldn't be responsible for their own lot in life? I'm not suggesting you or coachswede are wrong to feel the way you do or believe what you do. I'm merely questioning motivations and perceptions that lead to those motivations. If you're advocating Law Enforcement reform, then be about that. Is that what teenagers are protesting our pre-game anthem for? Kids feel compelled to disrespect a tradition (it could be team prayer or any other tradition) because they want everyone in attendance to demand that police across the country change the way they pull over drivers? If you're ham-fisting Law Enforcement with other disjointed emotional arguments, I think thats where justification falls apart for kids. Were you on fire about using your football teams for a political statement in 2007? If not, what changed? Certainly the only thing different now is instant social media that can sweep people up into hysterics based on emotional viral videos, regardless of actual historical trends Ultimately, THAT is what "handling this issue" comes down to; examining the motivations for turning your team conduct into political platforms. Are we cool with using our team logo to combat gay rights, pet neutering, fixing city potholes, and whatever other outrage-du-jour we have at the moment? We have it so good in our American society today, people expect to have things easy. The challenge is, that isn't reality. Kids and especially young college-age millennials have been sheltered to believe just by existing they should be entitled to no hardship. Life is imagined as "rolling out of bed into happiness and success". The natural state of things is for you to be dead and broke. It isn't until you do something to fight against that (take action) does that outcome change. People are in poverty because they don't have skills to earn a decent wage, move to a location that does pay them, or aren't smart enough to be financially responsible. If you're broke, do something about it. If you have no skills, do something about it. If you have great ideas but aren't employed, start your own business
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 11:24:21 GMT -6
for some white guy to claim that people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps because he has heroically and single-handedly saved some black kid from generational poverty and violence is the height of arrogance and audacity. I guess I don't understand what this means. Are you assuming what "race" I am? I'm not sure what you're insinuating, but your ad hominem is clear. how is this NOT the answer to life? people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own.... are you saying that people shouldn't be responsible for their own lot in life? If you're advocating Law Enforcement reform, then be about that. Is that what teenagers are protesting our pre-game anthem for? If you're ham-fisting Law Enforcement with other disjointed emotional arguments, I think thats where justification falls apart for kids. Were you on fire about using your football teams for a political statement in 2007? If not, what changed? Certainly the only thing different now is instant social media that can sweep people up into hysterics based on emotional viral videos, regardless of actual historical trends Ultimately, THAT is what "handling this issue" comes down to. Examining the motivations for turning your team conduct into political platforms. Are we cool with using our team logo to combat gay rights, pet neutering, fixing city potholes, and whatever other outrage-du-jour we have at the moment? If you really don't get why it is exponentially easier for some people (especially those who come from white, middle class families) to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps than it is for others, you are displaying a shocking level of ignorance.
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 11:30:53 GMT -6
If you really don't get why it is exponentially easier for some people (especially those who come from white, middle class families) to suck it up and pull themselves up then educate us all with actual facts, not your hysteria. You're saying that black people in America are doomed for failure, that they can't achieve anything on their own. That is an insultingly patronizing bigoted position. That, if someone were in poverty, they could work themselves out of it if they 1) pursue an education (not just going school) that leads to a skill 2) act financially responsible 3) contribute to society.....UNLESS THEY WERE BLACK SKIN TONED? and THIS....this is what you want your kids motivated to protest an anthem, pre-game ceremony, prayer, team dinner, etc because muh struggle? My quarterback demands we all wear black armbands to raise awareness against Joseph Kony's mercenary army
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Post by RuningOutOfOptions on Sept 14, 2017 11:32:14 GMT -6
for some white guy to claim that people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps because he has heroically and single-handedly saved some black kid from generational poverty and violence is the height of arrogance and audacity. I guess I don't understand what this means. Are you assuming what "race" I am? I'm not sure what you're insinuating, but your ad hominem is clear. IMO its pretty racist to say that anyone with dark skin in America is biologically predisposed for a life of poverty, which from what I'm reading above, is what you're saying. how is this NOT the answer to life? people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own.... are you saying that people shouldn't be responsible for their own lot in life? I'm not suggesting you or coachswede are wrong to feel the way you do or believe what you do. I'm merely questioning motivations and perceptions that lead to those motivations. If you're advocating Law Enforcement reform, then be about that. Is that what teenagers are protesting our pre-game anthem for? Kids feel compelled to disrespect a tradition (it could be team prayer or any other tradition) because they want everyone in attendance to demand that police across the country change the way they pull over drivers? If you're ham-fisting Law Enforcement with other disjointed emotional arguments, I think thats where justification falls apart for kids. Were you on fire about using your football teams for a political statement in 2007? If not, what changed? Certainly the only thing different now is instant social media that can sweep people up into hysterics based on emotional viral videos, regardless of actual historical trends Ultimately, THAT is what "handling this issue" comes down to; examining the motivations for turning your team conduct into political platforms. Are we cool with using our team logo to combat gay rights, pet neutering, fixing city potholes, and whatever other outrage-du-jour we have at the moment? We have it so good in our American society today, people expect to have things easy. The challenge is, that isn't reality. Kids and especially young college-age millennials have been sheltered to believe just by existing they should be entitled to no hardship. Life is imagined as "rolling out of bed into happiness and success". The natural state of things is for you to be dead and broke. It isn't until you do something to fight against that (take action) does that outcome change. People are in poverty because they don't have skills to earn a decent wage, move to a location that does pay them, or aren't smart enough to be financially responsible. If you're broke, do something about it. If you have no skills, do something about it. If you have great ideas but aren't employed, start your own business My main motivation is seeing a video where the brother of a player I coached get gunned down with 7 shots while wearing seatbelt, with his gf's daughter in the back seat that by an act of God's good grace was not harmed. I am a passionate person, but that the cop got away with that and similar acts have been told to us by African Americans since the 1970's but is showing up on the news first after cell phone cameras started recording it. The facts are there but us as a society have been blind to it since the LA riots that was started by a police wrongfully gunning down an African American woman. I believe it is time to listen, not judge and say what to do or not to do. We have done it and it led us here
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 11:41:27 GMT -6
My main motivation is seeing a video where the brother of a player I coached get gunned down with 7 shots while wearing seatbelt, with his gf's daughter in the back seat that by an act of God's good grace was not harmed. I am a passionate person, but that the cop got away with that and similar acts have been told to us by African Americans since the 1970's but is showing up on the news first after cell phone cameras started recording it. The facts are there but us as a society have been blind to it since the LA riots that was started by a police wrongfully gunning down an African American woman. I believe it is time to listen, not judge and say what to do or not to do. We have done it and it led us here boo hoo. people die everyday Again, are you protesting Law Enforcement policies? Law Enforcement oversight? or some plight of dark skinned Americans? If the former, okay....but that is a ridiculously small portion of actual incidents. If the latter, then be about the self-genocide in every American city. Black males 16-35 are wiping each other out in record numbers every week with violence. A large part of that stems from the fact that we don't reinforce the message that the only way to get ahead in America is through 1) education 2) employment 3) sound financial decisions. That metric is cold, but true of anyone regardless of any demographic they fit in. You can certainly have those opinions or beliefs, but compelling the team to participate (or allowing it) is what is in question.
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Post by NC1974 on Sept 14, 2017 11:47:59 GMT -6
This debate is starting to sprawl, but I just want to clarify my view: I don't think anyone is doomed to failure. I believe in personal accountability and hard work. I think we need to champion the idea of self reliance and at the same time highlight injustice. You are asking for evidence. I am not going to take the time to compile a list but I will share one example: Ferguson, MO, everybody was fired up about the Michael Brown incident on all sides. What got a lot less attention about a year later was the DOJ's report on the Ferguson Policing Practices. Links below. The report clearly demonstrates that the African American community in Ferguson was disproportionately "policed" for years. This is injustice. Now I'm not saying that African Americans in Ferguson should play the victim, but I sure wouldn't blame them if they felt the need to nonviolently draw attention to the injustices they are experiencing. And I would have a hard time telling a young person who is following this story that I will not allow him to express his feelings in a nonviolent appropriate way. www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/04/the-12-key-highlights-from-the-dojs-scathing-ferguson-report/?utm_term=.153005381820
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Post by RuningOutOfOptions on Sept 14, 2017 11:50:15 GMT -6
My main motivation is seeing a video where the brother of a player I coached get gunned down with 7 shots while wearing seatbelt, with his gf's daughter in the back seat that by an act of God's good grace was not harmed. I am a passionate person, but that the cop got away with that and similar acts have been told to us by African Americans since the 1970's but is showing up on the news first after cell phone cameras started recording it. The facts are there but us as a society have been blind to it since the LA riots that was started by a police wrongfully gunning down an African American woman. I believe it is time to listen, not judge and say what to do or not to do. We have done it and it led us here boo hoo. people die everyday Again, are you protesting Law Enforcement policies? Law Enforcement oversight? or some plight of dark skinned Americans? If the former, okay....but that is a ridiculously small portion of actual incidents. If the latter, then be about the self-genocide in every American city. Black males 16-35 are wiping each other out in record numbers every week with violence. A large part of that stems from the fact that we don't reinforce the message that the only way to get ahead in America is through 1) education 2) employment 3) sound financial decisions. That metric is cold, but true of anyone regardless of any demographic they fit in. You can certainly have those opinions or beliefs, but compelling the team to participate (or allowing it) is what is in question. Ok Brophy, it's alright to have difference of opinion, but when you start by writing "Boo Hoo" about somebody being wrongfully killed, you cross the line. You do not deserve my energy and effort, I am really sorry you can't act like a decent person and wish you luck on the rest of your coaching career, and I hope I never have the unfortunate experience of meeting you. I'll pray for you though, because I still believe in the good in people's heart
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 12:04:30 GMT -6
If you really don't get why it is exponentially easier for some people (especially those who come from white, middle class families) to suck it up and pull themselves up then educate us all with actual facts, not your hysteria. You're saying that black people in America are doomed for failure, that they can't achieve anything on their own. That is an insultingly patronizing bigoted position. That, if someone were in poverty, they could work themselves out of it if they 1) pursue an education (not just going school) that leads to a skill 2) act financially responsible 3) contribute to society.....UNLESS THEY WERE BLACK SKIN TONED? and THIS....this is what you want your kids motivated to protest an anthem, pre-game ceremony, prayer, team dinner, etc because muh struggle? My quarterback demands we all wear black armbands to raise awareness against Joseph Kony's mercenary army Understanding that some people get to start the race of life closer to the finish line than others is not an excuse nor is it destiny. It is simply an admission that there are challenges that some of us never have to even comprehend. That for many people, the accident of birth puts them on a path to success that has substantially fewer obstacles than others have to overcome. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's the realization that issues that don't affect ME personally have profound impacts for OTHERS. On the other hand, your suggestion that people need to just suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps is analogous to the football coach whose biggest adjustment is to yell out, "Hit somebody!" over and over.
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Post by coacht65 on Sept 14, 2017 12:10:26 GMT -6
My main motivation is seeing a video where the brother of a player I coached get gunned down with 7 shots while wearing seatbelt, with his gf's daughter in the back seat that by an act of God's good grace was not harmed. I am a passionate person, but that the cop got away with that and similar acts have been told to us by African Americans since the 1970's but is showing up on the news first after cell phone cameras started recording it. The facts are there but us as a society have been blind to it since the LA riots that was started by a police wrongfully gunning down an African American woman. I believe it is time to listen, not judge and say what to do or not to do. We have done it and it led us here boo hoo. people die everyday Again, are you protesting Law Enforcement policies? Law Enforcement oversight? or some plight of dark skinned Americans? If the former, okay....but that is a ridiculously small portion of actual incidents. If the latter, then be about the self-genocide in every American city. Black males 16-35 are wiping each other out in record numbers every week with violence. A large part of that stems from the fact that we don't reinforce the message that the only way to get ahead in America is through 1) education 2) employment 3) sound financial decisions. That metric is cold, but true of anyone regardless of any demographic they fit in. You can certainly have those opinions or beliefs, but compelling the team to participate (or allowing it) is what is in question. This is a flat-out racist post. You should delete it or ask an admin to delete it for you.
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Post by CS on Sept 14, 2017 12:39:55 GMT -6
then educate us all with actual facts, not your hysteria. You're saying that black people in America are doomed for failure, that they can't achieve anything on their own. That is an insultingly patronizing bigoted position. That, if someone were in poverty, they could work themselves out of it if they 1) pursue an education (not just going school) that leads to a skill 2) act financially responsible 3) contribute to society.....UNLESS THEY WERE BLACK SKIN TONED? and THIS....this is what you want your kids motivated to protest an anthem, pre-game ceremony, prayer, team dinner, etc because muh struggle? My quarterback demands we all wear black armbands to raise awareness against Joseph Kony's mercenary army Understanding that some people get to start the race of life closer to the finish line than others is not an excuse nor is it destiny. It is simply an admission that there are challenges that some of us never have to even comprehend. That for many people, the accident of birth puts them on a path to success that has substantially fewer obstacles than others have to overcome. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's the realization that issues that don't affect ME personally have profound impacts for OTHERS. On the other hand, your suggestion that people need to just suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps is analogous to the football coach whose biggest adjustment is to yell out, "Hit somebody!" over and over. I'm not really wanting to insert myself into this debate but your analysis that his points are somehow the same as an ineffective coach yelling out hit somebody on the sideline doesn't apply in this case. I could be wrong but what Brophy has been arguing is that with hard work and good decisions ANYONE could make a life for themselves. He may not use flattering words while doing it but in a nutshell, I believe he is right? I do believe that there are certain situations that cause people to really have to struggle hard to get out of poverty or any kind of a bad situation. I have seen it first hand at some of the places that I have worked. However, I will also say that in those environments that a number of people willing to put in the work to try and get out are few and far between. You can blame it on a number of things and all it would be is just passing blame onto something else so they wouldn't have to be accountable for their actions. You can say that the ones that make it out are the lucky ones or the exception to the rule, but in my experience, it was the kids that wanted out and did what it took to get out. There are racist people out in the world and it's unfortunate. But we can't blame everything on racism. Anyway, everyone has strong beliefs on the subject and nobody I have ever seen has ever changed their minds so we can talk all we want but more than likely we will not see a change in our lifetime.
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Post by PSS on Sept 14, 2017 12:50:37 GMT -6
I hear this parroted over and again in this thread as the (self righteous) justificiation from dividing/deviating from the TEAM. WHAT "injustice" are you referring to that is backed up with statisitcal evidence? The attitudes and motivations behind these victim campaigns isn't about righting some wrong, its about political power thrust, like getting aggressively hostile with a McDonalds manager because you got pickles on your McCrap burger. There is no real crime, youre just forcing someone to give you attention while you see how far you can push things to your will (and,most importantly, not be accountable for your own actions) My son is 'black'. I can assure you there is nothing holding him back in society. The only thing that will hold him back is a lack of self-reliance and personal accountability. He isn't victimized by some inherent boogeyman system of supremacy. Quite the opposite, in fact The only way to be " oppressed" in America is to have no education (no skills), no job and have ridiculous financial overhead (have a kid). This is true regardless of race, sex or orientation If we're moving the goalposts and talking about police interactions, it isn't that difficult to comprehend. Police are not judges. When police stop you, that is not the time to plead your case or offer up your best Matlock defense. Idiots that can't comprehend this, have a bad time...but its their own fault. Regards to the football team National Anthem - Is there a difference between being in the stands as the audience and sitting vs being a member of the team on the field? Do you make a distinction there between what significance the position has? You'd have to ask yourself why is this now becoming a meme when things actually were much worse in America? You'll realize this is just a fad, just like Breast Cancer Awareness month where every kid on the roster has to be mummified in pink athletic tape. None of these kids are advocates of Breast Cancer and even if they were, the high school venue isn't the place. They're simply mimicking what the NFL bozos do Laquan Macdonald was executed by a cop and then the incident was buried by the supposedly "good cops" who were on the scene. Were it not for a single dash cam video that somehow escaped the evidence purge, the incident would have remained buried. If you don't think that is injustice, then I have to believe you are being willfully ignorant. And for some white guy to claim that people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps because he has heroically and single-handedly saved some black kid from generational poverty and violence is the height of arrogance and audacity. This is where you are wrong. Saving one kid, no matter the race, is better than none. We can teach integrity to our athletes. We can demonstrate integrity to our athletes. And we can expect our athletes to use what they have learned and seen. It is our responsibility to do these things. If not, how will they ever be able to follow team rules. Take the time to teach your athletes to do what's right so that you don't have these incidents occur in the future.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 12:56:43 GMT -6
Laquan Macdonald was executed by a cop and then the incident was buried by the supposedly "good cops" who were on the scene. Were it not for a single dash cam video that somehow escaped the evidence purge, the incident would have remained buried. If you don't think that is injustice, then I have to believe you are being willfully ignorant. And for some white guy to claim that people just need to suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps because he has heroically and single-handedly saved some black kid from generational poverty and violence is the height of arrogance and audacity. This is where you are wrong. Saving one kid, no matter the race, is better than none. We can teach integrity to our athletes. We can demonstrate integrity to our athletes. And we can expect our athletes to use what they have learned and seen. It is our responsibility to do these things. If not, how will they ever be able to follow team rules. Take the time to teach your athletes to do what's right so that you don't have these incidents occur in the future. What does that have to do with Laquan Macdonald? Are you saying that if he would still be alive if he had more integrity? Are you really blaming him for his own death? Have you seen the video and read the police testimony?
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 13:00:49 GMT -6
Understanding that some people get to start the race of life closer to the finish line than others is not an excuse nor is it destiny. It is simply an admission that there are challenges that some of us never have to even comprehend. That for many people, the accident of birth puts them on a path to success that has substantially fewer obstacles than others have to overcome. Nothing more. Nothing less. It's the realization that issues that don't affect ME personally have profound impacts for OTHERS. On the other hand, your suggestion that people need to just suck it up and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps is analogous to the football coach whose biggest adjustment is to yell out, "Hit somebody!" over and over. I'm not really wanting to insert myself into this debate but your analysis that his points are somehow the same as an ineffective coach yelling out hit somebody on the sideline doesn't apply in this case. I could be wrong but what Brophy has been arguing is that with hard work and good decisions ANYONE could make a life for themselves. He may not use flattering words while doing it but in a nutshell, I believe he is right? I do believe that there are certain situations that cause people to really have to struggle hard to get out of poverty or any kind of a bad situation. I have seen it first hand at some of the places that I have worked.
However, I will also say that in those environments that a number of people willing to put in the work to try and get out are few and far between.You can blame it on a number of things and all it would be is just passing blame onto something else so they wouldn't have to be accountable for their actions. You can say that the ones that make it out are the lucky ones or the exception to the rule, but in my experience, it was the kids that wanted out and did what it took to get out. There are racist people out in the world and it's unfortunate. But we can't blame everything on racism. Anyway, everyone has strong beliefs on the subject and nobody I have ever seen has ever changed their minds so we can talk all we want but more than likely we will not see a change in our lifetime. That's pretty much all I'm saying.
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Post by PSS on Sept 14, 2017 13:05:15 GMT -6
This is where you are wrong. Saving one kid, no matter the race, is better than none. We can teach integrity to our athletes. We can demonstrate integrity to our athletes. And we can expect our athletes to use what they have learned and seen. It is our responsibility to do these things. If not, how will they ever be able to follow team rules. Take the time to teach your athletes to do what's right so that you don't have these incidents occur in the future. What does that have to do with Laquan Macdonald? Are you saying that if he would still be alive if he had more integrity? Are you really blaming him for his own death? Have you seen the video and read the police testimony? I'm saying that if you want things to change, you have to start with the kids your coaching. Teach them integrity, honesty, to be good husbands and fathers. And when they are the policemen someday, they will make better decisions than to commit crimes and cover up crimes. You can't do anything about what has already occurred. But you can have impact on the future.
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Post by RuningOutOfOptions on Sept 14, 2017 13:12:25 GMT -6
What does that have to do with Laquan Macdonald? Are you saying that if he would still be alive if he had more integrity? Are you really blaming him for his own death? Have you seen the video and read the police testimony? I'm saying that if you want things to change, you have to start with the kids your coaching. Teach them integrity, honesty, to be good husbands and fathers. And when they are the policemen someday, they will make better decisions than to commit crimes and cover up crimes. You can't do anything about what has already occurred. But you can have impact on the future. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 13:17:11 GMT -6
]This is a flat-out racist post. which part? help us understand
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 13:22:52 GMT -6
What does that have to do with Laquan Macdonald? Are you saying that if he would still be alive if he had more integrity? Are you really blaming him for his own death? Have you seen the video and read the police testimony? I'm saying that if you want things to change, you have to start with the kids your coaching. Teach them integrity, honesty, to be good husbands and fathers. And when they are the policemen someday, they will make better decisions than to commit crimes and cover up crimes. You can't do anything about what has already occurred. But you can have impact on the future. What should Laquan Macdonald been taught that would have prevented the police from killing him and attempting to cover up the incident?
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 13:29:12 GMT -6
the accident of birth puts them on a path to success that has substantially fewer obstacles than others have to overcome. people got in a lot of trouble in the 80s for suggesting that some things just come easier because of their genetic makeup (" that player is just a natural athlete", he's was " born to run like the wind"). These statements discounted the fact that guys like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Warren Moon, while great athletes actually didn't fall out of bed and became great. Those guys were magnificent competitive athletes because they worked harder than their competitors and put in countless hours to be the best. The notion that people with fair skin in America fall out of bed into a trust fund and a Master's Degree is just as absurd (" All white people are George W. Bush"). Making these kind of false equivocations to prop up a ridiculous zero-accountability safe zone is toxic. Both for discussion and for shaping people's truthful perspective on reality For the record, my ex-wife is black. I am second generation Polish/Irish immigrants. So technically, my biological son is "black". I'll be sure to let him know that he's been handicapped by society so he shouldn't try to be successful because he's doesn't have to be accountable to how his life turns out. What does that mean? It means I've heard this mularky for 30 years...anyone bringing up "race", regardless of perspective, is trying to sell you something and it isn't the truth. Everyone is accountable for their own lot in life. If you're smart enough to build a support system, improve yourself daily and use financial discipline...that isn't "privilege", it's called "achievement". Recognizing achievement, particularly when you aren't achieving anything yourself, can be a bitter pill to swallow. SELF-EFFICACY
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 13:31:14 GMT -6
What should Laquan Macdonald been taught that would have prevented the police from killing him and attempting to cover up the incident? respectfully, while I think you have an entirely valid point and question on this. Is that discussion vital/crucial to the point of High School Teams deviating pre-game traditions in the effort to 'protest'? Just a question, with the hopes of steering our talk back to football program
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 13:37:12 GMT -6
the accident of birth puts them on a path to success that has substantially fewer obstacles than others have to overcome. people got in a lot of trouble in the 80s for suggesting that some things just come easier because of their genetic makeup (" that player is just a natural athlete", he's was " born to run like the wind"). These statements discounted the fact that guys like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Warren Moon, while great athletes actually didn't fall out of bed and became great. Those guys were magnificent competitive athletes because they worked harder than their competitors and put in countless hours to be the best. The notion that people with fair skin in America fall out of bed into a trust fund and a Master's Degree is just as absurd. Making these kind of false equivocations to prop up a ridiculous zero-accountability safe zone is toxic. Both for discussion and for shaping people's truthful perspective on reality For the record, my ex-wife is black. I am second generation Polish/Irish immigrants. So technically, my biological son is "black". I'll be sure to let him know that he's been handicapped by society so he shouldn't try to be successful because he's doesn't have to be accountable to how his life turns out. No. You are not getting it. Your son has a very good chance to be successful specifically BECAUSE of you.
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Post by brophy on Sept 14, 2017 13:44:00 GMT -6
chance to be successful specifically BECAUSE of you. baloney The only thing I represent is someone who holds him accountable with a standard of behavior with the three tenets I outlined previously. It wouldn't matter if I was an immigrant from Sri Lanka or a 10th generation English blue blood, there is nothing magic in my blood. Its about what each individual chooses to do for themselves. Life is tough. Those kids you have in the school who's parents fight you every step of the way, that complain when you attempt to redirect, correct or discipline their child.... what do you think happens to those kids when they try to use that lesson in real life? Maybe we'll show up this Friday and demand that 12 points be put on the scoreboard because....hey...we travelled 60 miles to play the game, and shoot....our booster club only raise $400 this summer...and...I only have 2 assistants on staff.....and....I have to teach 3 periods in addition to being head coach....and..... NOPE. suck it up. do the work. shut the < > up. THAT, was the entire lesson of playing football, at least for me. You either put the work in in the off-season, in practice, show up and compete your ass off....or you got embarrassed at game time. That's reality.
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Post by PSS on Sept 14, 2017 13:44:28 GMT -6
I'm saying that if you want things to change, you have to start with the kids your coaching. Teach them integrity, honesty, to be good husbands and fathers. And when they are the policemen someday, they will make better decisions than to commit crimes and cover up crimes. You can't do anything about what has already occurred. But you can have impact on the future. What should Laquan Macdonald been taught that would have prevented the police from killing him and attempting to cover up the incident? Can you not read my post. Do you have such tunnel vision that you cant interpret what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with him. It has to do with the future. Not every kid you coach is going to be killed by a cop. Some of them are going to be the cops. You can influence their future by what they get from your program. Seriously, I feel like I'm communicating with my freshmen Health classes with some you.
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Post by PSS on Sept 14, 2017 13:50:15 GMT -6
people got in a lot of trouble in the 80s for suggesting that some things just come easier because of their genetic makeup (" that player is just a natural athlete", he's was " born to run like the wind"). These statements discounted the fact that guys like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Warren Moon, while great athletes actually didn't fall out of bed and became great. Those guys were magnificent competitive athletes because they worked harder than their competitors and put in countless hours to be the best. The notion that people with fair skin in America fall out of bed into a trust fund and a Master's Degree is just as absurd. Making these kind of false equivocations to prop up a ridiculous zero-accountability safe zone is toxic. Both for discussion and for shaping people's truthful perspective on reality For the record, my ex-wife is black. I am second generation Polish/Irish immigrants. So technically, my biological son is "black". I'll be sure to let him know that he's been handicapped by society so he shouldn't try to be successful because he's doesn't have to be accountable to how his life turns out. No. You are not getting it. Your son has a very good chance to be successful specifically BECAUSE of you. I don't buy that. I got a letter from my son last week who is in basic training. He wrote that not only was it the things I taught him but also the other coaches in his life that instilled the values in him such as not to ever give up and to always do what's right. These are things that were preached to him not only at home but also going through football from his position coaches and the HC. So it's not just the parents, the coaches play a large part in their lives.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 14, 2017 13:50:29 GMT -6
chance to be successful specifically BECAUSE of you. baloney The only thing I represent is someone who holds him accountable with a standard of behavior with the three tenets I outlined previously. It wouldn't matter if I was an immigrant from Sri Lanka or a 10th generation English blue blood, there is nothing magic in my blood. Its about what each individual chooses to do for themselves. Life is tough. Maybe we'll show up this Friday and demand that 12 points be put on the scoreboard because....hey...we travelled 60 miles to play the game, and shoot....our booster club only raise $400 this summer...and...I only have 2 assistants on staff.....and....I have to teach 3 periods in addition to being head coach....and..... NOPE. suck it up. do the work. shut the < > up. THAT, was the entire lesson of playing football, at least for me. You either put the work in in the off-season, in practice, show up and compete your ass off....or you got embarrassed at game time. That's reality. You choosing to be a responsible father has nothing to do with magical blood. The point is that many kids DON'T have an adult like you (one who is emphasizing important life skills upon your child).
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