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Post by gian3074 on Sept 11, 2017 10:47:00 GMT -6
I don't think the pledge of allegiance is going anywhere. From what I've seen if a kid doesn't want to say it it's usually not because of ethical objections it's because they're lazy. As an atheist I usually just skip over the two words when I say it (you can guess which ones).
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Post by fshamrock on Sept 11, 2017 11:08:41 GMT -6
We had a Jr high coach once who taught at the high school. He was a big Libertarian type dude so at the beginning of school he told the kids about how the Supreme Court had ruled schools aren't allowed to force kids to say the pledge, so teenagers being teenagers a bunch of them stopped doing it. Well..once wind of that got back to the brass in that little country school he was fired. They didn't say specifically for that but they made up a bunch of other stuff. In a year where we had a guy that admin had to ask to leave because he was completely blitzed, and another teacher got into a facebook flame war with a senior at the school because they were both dating the same guy who had graduated the year before.....the only person that got fired was that dude...over the pledge of allegiance. Murica
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Post by breakerdog on Sept 11, 2017 13:14:51 GMT -6
I have always like the kneeling, quiet, hands on shoulder, reciting words together moment of peace that the Lords prayer gets you, before the pregame speech and the run out. I get the politics behind it and that it's probably not real inclusive of other folks with differing beliefs.
I would be totally open to some kind of shared common ritual that gives us the same effect, but without the baggage.
I don't have any good ideas.
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 11, 2017 13:48:19 GMT -6
I have always like the kneeling, quiet, hands on shoulder, reciting words together moment of peace that the Lords prayer gets you, before the pregame speech and the run out. I get the politics behind it and that it's probably not real inclusive of other folks with differing beliefs. I would be totally open to some kind of shared common ritual that gives us the same effect, but without the baggage. I don't have any good ideas. I used to have a nice quote, I can't find it, but it generally said, please let me do the best that I can, etc..not really a prayer but kind of..
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Post by grouchy71 on Sept 13, 2017 6:04:06 GMT -6
The pledge is said every single day over the PA in the schools here. Has been forever. It is then followed by a moment of silence. The students do have the option of not saying the pledge. I see all the time on Facebook how we no longer do the pledge in schools and it couldn't be further from the truth. I assume he is referring to the fact that the students have the option of not saying it and many choose not to. For the record, I'm all for the establishment clause and coaches NOT leading prayers although I myself am religious. I am also fine with the kids not being required to say the pledge although I myself say the pledge. Our heritage as Americans has always been that we are a bunch of anti-establishment rabble rousers who don't like to be told what to do and bristle if we are made to do anything. From day one to now. Being contrarian and independent minded is being quintessentially American. I am a rule follower myself and I have a tendency to be "patriotic" in the modern sense of the word, but I can recognize that the opposite attitude is more consistent with our history and our heritage. I'm an atheist football coach (not many of us) and I find it bizarre that there are still team prayers at public high schools. Having said that, I do the pledge of allegiance out of respect for sacrifices made by others for me freedom. RCole's post is one of the better stated things I've read on all of this in a long time, from someone who doesn't have the same religious views, it sums up perfectly my thoughts on the matter. Nice to see there's still the ability to share common ground, kudos. Grouch
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 10:32:45 GMT -6
The lines on values, the lines on right and wrong are being distorted. It is evident in the class room, and it is not the kids I blame. The kids are just a symptom. If values and right and wrong are distorted long enough, what is sacred will change. If you say it loud enough and long enough, people believe and accept it as truth. What the hell are you talking about? The lines, norms you and I grew up on? have been blurred. That is on adults not kids. And it happens because all the stuff we have and now has happened because it has been shouted for so long, and with little or no real resistance. So much yelling and screaming about diversity that it has changed the norms.
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Post by fantom on Sept 13, 2017 10:40:54 GMT -6
What the hell are you talking about? The lines, norms you and I grew up on? have been blurred. That is on adults not kids. And it happens because all the stuff we have and now has happened because it has been shouted for so long, and with little or no real resistance. So much yelling and screaming about diversity that it has changed the norms. Well, let's revisit the question about kids not saying The Pledge in school. You said that you see it every day. What do you mean? Somebody said that their school says it over the loudspeaker every day, followed by a moment of silence. That was exactly my experience. Is your's different?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 12:03:10 GMT -6
The lines, norms you and I grew up on? have been blurred. That is on adults not kids. And it happens because all the stuff we have and now has happened because it has been shouted for so long, and with little or no real resistance. So much yelling and screaming about diversity that it has changed the norms. Well, let's revisit the question about kids not saying The Pledge in school. You said that you see it every day. What do you mean? Somebody said that their school says it over the loudspeaker every day, followed by a moment of silence. That was exactly my experience. Is your's different? Where I am at, the pledge, prayer of any sort, even lessons, its mandatory that kids be told they have the option of participation. It is not an expectation. When I was a kid, it was mandatory, no questions asked, especially on the pledge. Now I am not saying we were correct and they are wrong. Because I think you are crossing lines when you say you are narrow minded, mostly because I don't agree with you. And that goes to both sides of the argument. I have a problem with the Nazi Salute, but really how is that different than the pledge of allegiance? Especially, if one is natural born citizen of Germany, or was born in Nazi Germany. That is why I have to be careful when I rip people like kapernick, because while I disagree with him, I think shouting him down, or shutting him down is dangerous business. Especially if we are an open society, and we believe in freedom of whatever.
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Post by fantom on Sept 13, 2017 12:16:02 GMT -6
Well, let's revisit the question about kids not saying The Pledge in school. You said that you see it every day. What do you mean? Somebody said that their school says it over the loudspeaker every day, followed by a moment of silence. That was exactly my experience. Is your's different? Where I am at, the pledge, prayer of any sort, even lessons, its mandatory that kids be told they have the option of participation. It is not an expectation. When I was a kid, it was mandatory, no questions asked, especially on the pledge. Now I am not saying we were correct and they are wrong. Because I think you are crossing lines when you say you are narrow minded, mostly because I don't agree with you. And that goes to both sides of the argument. I have a problem with the Nazi Salute, but really how is that different than the pledge of allegiance? Especially, if one is natural born citizen of Germany, or was born in Nazi Germany. That is why I have to be careful when I rip people like kapernick, because while I disagree with him, I think shouting him down, or shutting him down is dangerous business. Especially if we are an open society, and we believe in freedom of whatever. You have me confused. Up until now your statements led me to believe that you felt that making the Pledge optional is a sign that the end of western civilization is at hand.
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Post by PSS on Sept 13, 2017 12:45:45 GMT -6
Texas has a law that the students have to say the Pledge of Allegiance, the Texas Pledge, and observe a moment of silence. The only way that a student can get out of this is by a hand written note signed by the parent or guardian excusing them from the pledges.
It has been upheld in court several times.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2017 13:29:53 GMT -6
Where I am at, the pledge, prayer of any sort, even lessons, its mandatory that kids be told they have the option of participation. It is not an expectation. When I was a kid, it was mandatory, no questions asked, especially on the pledge. Now I am not saying we were correct and they are wrong. Because I think you are crossing lines when you say you are narrow minded, mostly because I don't agree with you. And that goes to both sides of the argument. I have a problem with the Nazi Salute, but really how is that different than the pledge of allegiance? Especially, if one is natural born citizen of Germany, or was born in Nazi Germany. That is why I have to be careful when I rip people like kapernick, because while I disagree with him, I think shouting him down, or shutting him down is dangerous business. Especially if we are an open society, and we believe in freedom of whatever. You have me confused. Up until now your statements led me to believe that you felt that making the Pledge optional is a sign that the end of western civilization is at hand. Oh I am against people who do not say the pledge, who are opposed to school prayer, but if I am for freedom of anything, take your pick, then I have to allow for those difference. That does not mean I should be shut down on my beliefs, which is what happens...(not me personally) and you have a disregard for authority, disregard for religious tolerance, now we have a disregard for hard work, history (book burning)..and as a result, mostly because the good people do nothing or cower, what is the norm is, me you, and most other coaches do not recognize.
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Post by fantom on Sept 13, 2017 18:10:25 GMT -6
You have me confused. Up until now your statements led me to believe that you felt that making the Pledge optional is a sign that the end of western civilization is at hand. Oh I am against people who do not say the pledge, who are opposed to school prayer, but if I am for freedom of anything, take your pick, then I have to allow for those difference. That does not mean I should be shut down on my beliefs, which is what happens...(not me personally) and you have a disregard for authority, disregard for religious tolerance, now we have a disregard for hard work, history (book burning)..and as a result, mostly because the good people do nothing or cower, what is the norm is, me you, and most other coaches do not recognize. i was a retired History teacher. You'll have to fill me in on the book burning. I hadn't heard about that.
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Post by MICoach on Sept 14, 2017 8:10:15 GMT -6
Public school in a surprisingly religiously diverse district - we take a knee as a team and have a moment of silence to do whatever it is you want to do with that moment.
I went to a Catholic high school and a private Christian college so we always prayed before and after games. I also have coached at a Catholic school and also prayed after practice and before/after games.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 8:13:22 GMT -6
Oh I am against people who do not say the pledge, who are opposed to school prayer, but if I am for freedom of anything, take your pick, then I have to allow for those difference. That does not mean I should be shut down on my beliefs, which is what happens...(not me personally) and you have a disregard for authority, disregard for religious tolerance, now we have a disregard for hard work, history (book burning)..and as a result, mostly because the good people do nothing or cower, what is the norm is, me you, and most other coaches do not recognize. i was a retired History teacher. You'll have to fill me in on the book burning. I hadn't heard about that. I equate the taking the statues down, removing them to book burning.
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 8:20:09 GMT -6
i was a retired History teacher. You'll have to fill me in on the book burning. I hadn't heard about that. I equate the taking the statues down, removing them to book burning. But they're not the same thing. You can't really burn a statue. They're made of stone or metal. They don't burn. Plus, not many statues impart actual historical information?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 9:09:33 GMT -6
if you are removing history from the public square, just a matter of time before its not statues, but books.
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 9:13:18 GMT -6
if you are removing history from the public square, just a matter of time before its not statues, but books. That's quite logical leap there. If I thought that the statues actually presented history, though, I might believe it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 10:54:39 GMT -6
if you are removing history from the public square, just a matter of time before its not statues, but books. That's quite logical leap there. If I thought that the statues actually presented history, though, I might believe it. What are stutues? Paintings are not history? Museum certainly cannot represent any form of history.
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 10:57:58 GMT -6
That's quite logical leap there. If I thought that the statues actually presented history, though, I might believe it. What are stutues? Paintings are not history? Museum certainly cannot represent any form of history. Tell me what exactly you learned from this:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 10:59:30 GMT -6
What are stutues? Paintings are not history? Museum certainly cannot represent any form of history. Tell me what exactly you learned from this: somebody created as a monument..it is history
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 11:11:36 GMT -6
Tell me what exactly you learned from this: somebody created as a monument..it is history A person with zero knowledge of history sees a man who lived in the 19th century who could ride a horse. Some people see a great hero. Some see a man who fought to keep their ancestors slaves. As this regards public prayers over the PA system before a public school football game: Some Christians in the crowd find that inspirational, some just wish they'd get on with the game. Non-Christians may not find it so inspirational.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 11:13:54 GMT -6
somebody created as a monument..it is history A person with zero knowledge of history sees a man who lived in the 19th century who could ride a horse. Some people see a great hero. Some see a man who fought to keep their ancestors slaves. As this regards public prayers over the PA system before a public school football game: Some Christians in the crowd find that inspirational, some just wish they'd get on with the game. Non-Christians may not find it so inspirational. no different than a book.
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 11:29:47 GMT -6
A person with zero knowledge of history sees a man who lived in the 19th century who could ride a horse. Some people see a great hero. Some see a man who fought to keep their ancestors slaves. As this regards public prayers over the PA system before a public school football game: Some Christians in the crowd find that inspirational, some just wish they'd get on with the game. Non-Christians may not find it so inspirational. no different than a book. The only difference is that they're completely different unless you're an illiterate medieval peasant.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 11:32:49 GMT -6
no different than a book. The only difference is that they're completely different unless you're an illiterate medieval peasant. both are open to interpretation.
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 11:34:47 GMT -6
The only difference is that they're completely different unless you're an illiterate medieval peasant. both are open to interpretation. And the other similarities are...?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 11:39:13 GMT -6
both are open to interpretation. And the other similarities are...? They are about the past...as far I know they do not create statues for future leaders. Those are the only two things that really matter. What somebody does with the information? is completely up to the individual. Yes the book contains more information, but both are about history. If you take a piece of history in one form and remove it from society, why stop there. The Cambodian communist revolution made this jump, except history wasn't the only thing they took away.
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 11:42:26 GMT -6
And the other similarities are...? They are about the past...as far I know they do not create statues for future leaders. Those are the only two things that really matter. What somebody does with the information? is completely up to the individual. Yes the book contains more information, but both are about history. If you take a piece of history in one form and remove it from society, why stop there. The Cambodian communist revolution made this jump, except history wasn't the only thing they took away. Again, what information do you get from a statue in a park?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 11:45:16 GMT -6
They are about the past...as far I know they do not create statues for future leaders. Those are the only two things that really matter. What somebody does with the information? is completely up to the individual. Yes the book contains more information, but both are about history. If you take a piece of history in one form and remove it from society, why stop there. The Cambodian communist revolution made this jump, except history wasn't the only thing they took away. Again, what information do you get from a statue in a park? I could be informed and decide that it is of civil war general that had been offered a chance to work for the north, I could decide that it is a symbol of slavery, I could decide it is about states rights v. federal right....What I get out of it, is completely irrelevant. Maybe I know nothing, but I find the man on the horse heroic, and decide to go do some research.....
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2017 12:43:08 GMT -6
Again, what information do you get from a statue in a park? I could be informed and decide that it is of civil war general that had been offered a chance to work for the north, I could decide that it is a symbol of slavery, I could decide it is about states rights v. federal right....What I get out of it, is completely irrelevant. Maybe I know nothing, but I find the man on the horse heroic, and decide to go do some research..... To be clear, I'm not against monuments in museums or historic sites or cemeteries. Very few people are. I don't see where statues in public parks, with no context aren't educational. You think that they do. Would you mind, then, if they erected a statue of Nat Turner next to that statue of Lee in Charlottesville?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2017 13:08:22 GMT -6
I could be informed and decide that it is of civil war general that had been offered a chance to work for the north, I could decide that it is a symbol of slavery, I could decide it is about states rights v. federal right....What I get out of it, is completely irrelevant. Maybe I know nothing, but I find the man on the horse heroic, and decide to go do some research..... To be clear, I'm not against monuments in museums or historic sites or cemeteries. Very few people are. I don't see where statues in public parks, with no context aren't educational. You think that they do. Would you mind, then, if they erected a statue of Nat Turner next to that statue of Lee in Charlottesville? What I have said about opposing views. FYI, I don't care who puts up a statue of who. You can have whatever view like, but then, and this is no longer true, you should also suffer the consequences of those views. The KKK should have its ass kicked.
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