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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 9, 2017 19:39:52 GMT -6
As many of you know I have been coaching for a while. I have never been a part of a team that prays in public as this team. Friday night we prayed as a team on the field before the game and then also after the game. The week before we prayed after the game w our opponent. I don't know really where it is all coming from as we never did it previously. FYI..the HC doesn't lead it but we have a "character" coach who also does FCA. TO ME, I am of the opinion that you pray in private with your teammates/family, why does it need to be done in public? Why with the other team (which was highly organized) please note I am not against religion and actually worked at a Jesuit university in which prayer in our locker room was the norm
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Post by **** on Sept 9, 2017 20:06:19 GMT -6
We pray in the locker room.
Can't really think of any time we've prayed in public or after a game with another team? Maybe after a bad injury? Not sure?
This summer we had our starting QB twist a knee in a camp and we thought his ACL was blown. The kids on the field all came together and the other teams coach held our kids hand and prayed for him while the trainer came. They were a private Christian school though.
Our kid ended up being okay. Sprained ligament, and sat out the rest of summer to recover.
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Post by PSS on Sept 9, 2017 20:30:48 GMT -6
Our pre-game prayer is private. The prayer after the game is public and we've done it this way since I was playing, which goes back to the 1980s.
We started praying with the other team at the end of the game several years ago. We go through the normal "line it up and shake hands" then both teams mix in together. The HC's say a couple of good things about their opponent then one of the players begins the Lord's Prayer.
Our JV does it this way also.
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 9, 2017 20:58:11 GMT -6
Our pre-game prayer is private. The prayer after the game is public and we've done it this way since I was playing, which goes back to the 1980s. We started praying with the other team at the end of the game several years ago. We go through the normal "line it up and shake hands" then both teams mix in together. The HC's say a couple of good things about their opponent then one of the players begins the Lord's Prayer. Our JV does it this way also. this was the first time a team I was on was involved w another team I didn't participate..just not my thing. it seemed highly choreographed but I guess it was nice...just seemed a little weird to me that the guys were MFing them not 15 minutes before
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Post by murdr on Sept 10, 2017 1:03:38 GMT -6
Every team I've ever been on has prayed before and after games at the 50. I'm not a believer, but I never cared.
If I'm ever a head coach, and my kids want to do it, they can. I just won't be leading it
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Post by realdawg on Sept 10, 2017 5:56:30 GMT -6
We do both, in private and public, our team chaplain leads it. Churches feed our kids pregame meal. We are also in a very rural area of the south where this is still unquestionably accepted as the way things are suppossed to be.
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 10, 2017 6:30:22 GMT -6
Every team I've ever been on has prayed before and after games at the 50. I'm not a believer, but I never cared. If I'm ever a head coach, and my kids want to do it, they can. I just won't be leading it Just curious....Why on the 50? Why not the 35? The end zone?
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Post by murdr on Sept 10, 2017 6:47:50 GMT -6
Every team I've ever been on has prayed before and after games at the 50. I'm not a believer, but I never cared. If I'm ever a head coach, and my kids want to do it, they can. I just won't be leading it Just curious....Why on the 50? Why not the 35? The end zone? No idea. Never thought or cared to ask. Post-game was usually done with opposing team as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 10:39:00 GMT -6
As many of you know I have been coaching for a while. I have never been a part of a team that prays in public as this team. Friday night we prayed as a team on the field before the game and then also after the game. The week before we prayed after the game w our opponent. I don't know really where it is all coming from as we never did it previously. FYI..the HC doesn't lead it but we have a "character" coach who also does FCA. TO ME, I am of the opinion that you pray in private with your teammates/family, why does it need to be done in public? Why with the other team (which was highly organized) please note I am not against religion and actually worked at a Jesuit university in which prayer in our locker room was the norm Team prayers before and after the game are a tradition here. I've never been with a team that didn't do one before a game, and most of the teams I've coached and played on would get with the other team and have another one after the game, too. Usually a local pastor volunteers to show up and lead it. I coached at one school where the HC would lead us all in prayer before every practice, too. I guess theoretically it could be a separation of church and state issue, but it's accepted. A school across the state line did get sued for leading the whole stadium in prayer over the PA system a few years back, which they'd been doing for decades.
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 10, 2017 11:03:57 GMT -6
I guess i am just a little suspicious of adults leading organized prayer at sporting events. does the kid really have a choice?..whats he going to do, not join in when a couple of thousand people are watching..is it really for the glory of God? Or is it just a "thing" that football players do. We said the Lord's prayer in our locker room when I played in college. I was not brought up Christian, so I didn't know the words, but it still felt somewhat comforting being in a small room with my team mates..not sure if I would have got the same feeling sitting on the 50 yards line
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 10, 2017 11:29:31 GMT -6
I guess i am just a little suspicious of adults leading organized prayer at sporting events. does the kid really have a choice?..whats he going to do, not join in when a couple of thousand people are watching..is it really for the glory of God? Or is it just a "thing" that football players do. We said the Lord's prayer in our locker room when I played in college. I was not brought up Christian, so I didn't know the words, but it still felt somewhat comforting being in a small room with my team mates..not sure if I would have got the same feeling sitting on the 50 yards line Grew up Catholic, attended and played for a catholic school. Obviously prayer was involved, but if I think back, it was as a team off the field during pre game (before the sign run through). We also had an invocation before the National Anthem pre game at home. Coached at multiple private and public jr high and high schools. I remember a few of the public high schools praying pre game and maybe post game, but never in an orchestrated manner. The private schools with religious affiliations prayed much like my high school did. From a personal perspective, the biggest eye opening moment for me was coaching at a private HS where about 65% of the team was Jewish with a staff of all Christian (some practicing, some who just grew up that way) coaches. The team did not pray, but it was then that I realized just how uncomfortable I would have been at 14, 15, 16 years old if the team would have started praying various Jewish prayers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 11:34:42 GMT -6
I know exactly where you're coming from. I wasn't raised Christian, either, so when I started playing football I had the same experience with not knowing the words. There really isn't much of a choice for a kid to not participate, and it's never been framed as a choice in my experience.
Pregame prayers here are typically done in the locker room after warm ups and the pep talk, right before taking the field. Post game prayers, if they're done, are at midfield after the handshake. That's how it's done here. The coach who'd lead us in prayer at practice (it was a public school in a rural, conservative area) would gather the team up after warm ups and do it before breaking into individual drills.
It is likely unconstitutional for public school teams, especially when it's led by an adult who represents the school, but it's such a part of the culture here that if a team didn't gather to pray before the game, there would be outrage from both the players and the community. We have a hard enough time getting them to practice on Wednesday due to evening church services.
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Post by dytmook on Sept 10, 2017 12:00:47 GMT -6
Coach at a private catholic school. We do the lord's prayer after every practice on the field, before going out for games, then on the field after the game. Not really my thing, but I'm more than happy to have a silent moment and let the team do their thing.
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Post by rcole on Sept 10, 2017 16:19:43 GMT -6
I've been coaching for 22 years. When I first started not only did we pray together as a team both before and after games, but the PA announcer also prayed over the speakers before the games. A law suit around 1999-2003 put an end to the PA prayer (not a suit from here, I think it was Minnesota). Many smaller surrounding districts have gone back to PA prayers as time has gone by. I work in the largest district in the state (47th largest in the nation) and as such we get a lot of scrutiny from organizations like the ACLU which has an office in our city. They actually send us a letter occasionally to remind us that they are watching. As a result, our district did put some policies in place. It is illegal for public school employees including coaches to initiate or lead prayers while they are acting as government officials. It is perfectly legal for the kids to initiate prayer and for that prayer to take place in our presence as employees. It must be student initiated and then also be a student led prayer. At one point the district encouraged us to walk away when they prayed so that it wouldn't look like we were leading it. Then they got a bunch of complaints from the general public about how that looked. So they came back and said walk away if you want to or you can stand where you are when it starts. Most other districts just still go on as they always have, no different than the 50's or 60's. As long as no one complains then they will do what they want, even if they know it is illegal. But there are absolutely legal ways for schools to allow prayers and even legal ways for coaches to pray legally, so long as we aren't initiating or leading those prayers.
There is an establishment clause that many people refer to as "separation of church and state," however the Supreme Court has decided that the state does not have to be adversarial toward religion, it just has to be neutral. So technically, it doesn't have to be totally separate, just can't endorse nor can it interfere. For example, the courts have decided that public school systems can provide bus transportation to private Christian schools as long as they are offering transportation to any and all students attending any and all schools. Schools can rent out their facilities to churches for church services, as long as it is available to any and all groups regardless of beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 18:28:29 GMT -6
I've been coaching for 22 years. When I first started not only did we pray together as a team both before and after games, but the PA announcer also prayed over the speakers before the games. A law suit around 1999-2003 put an end to the PA prayer (not a suit from here, I think it was Minnesota). Many smaller surrounding districts have gone back to PA prayers as time has gone by. I work in the largest district in the state (47th largest in the nation) and as such we get a lot of scrutiny from organizations like the ACLU which has an office in our city. They actually send us a letter occasionally to remind us that they are watching. As a result, our district did put some policies in place. It is illegal for public school employees including coaches to initiate or lead prayers while they are acting as government officials. It is perfectly legal for the kids to initiate prayer and for that prayer to take place in our presence as employees. It must be student initiated and then also be a student led prayer. At one point the district encouraged us to walk away when they prayed so that it wouldn't look like we were leading it. Then they got a bunch of complaints from the general public about how that looked. So they came back and said walk away if you want to or you can stand where you are when it starts. Most other districts just still go on as they always have, no different than the 50's or 60's. As long as no one complains then they will do what they want, even if they know it is illegal. But there are absolutely legal ways for schools to allow prayers and even legal ways for coaches to pray legally, so long as we aren't initiating or leading those prayers. There is an establishment clause that many people refer to as "separation of church and state," however the Supreme Court has decided that the state does not have to be adversarial toward religion, it just has to be neutral. So technically, it doesn't have to be totally separate, just can't endorse nor can it interfere. For example, the courts have decided that public school systems can provide bus transportation to private Christian schools as long as they are offering transportation to any and all students attending any and all schools. Schools can rent out their facilities to churches for church services, as long as it is available to any and all groups regardless of beliefs. As long as it is not mandatory for everybody to participate..... The sad part is, the pledge of allegiance has fallen victim to that as well.
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Post by grouchy71 on Sept 11, 2017 6:01:40 GMT -6
I appreciate all of the posts here about how you continue to do team prayers because it's always been that way, but IMO it is extremely inappropriate for a coach to be any part of a "team prayer" if he's working at a public high school. If it's a group of players doing something on their own, that's one thing, but to have a whole team event is compelling participation in a specifically religious ceremony. If you want to pray, pray in private, keep it off of my publicly funded football field.
Grouch
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Post by fantom on Sept 11, 2017 6:33:29 GMT -6
I've been coaching for 22 years. When I first started not only did we pray together as a team both before and after games, but the PA announcer also prayed over the speakers before the games. A law suit around 1999-2003 put an end to the PA prayer (not a suit from here, I think it was Minnesota). Many smaller surrounding districts have gone back to PA prayers as time has gone by. I work in the largest district in the state (47th largest in the nation) and as such we get a lot of scrutiny from organizations like the ACLU which has an office in our city. They actually send us a letter occasionally to remind us that they are watching. As a result, our district did put some policies in place. It is illegal for public school employees including coaches to initiate or lead prayers while they are acting as government officials. It is perfectly legal for the kids to initiate prayer and for that prayer to take place in our presence as employees. It must be student initiated and then also be a student led prayer. At one point the district encouraged us to walk away when they prayed so that it wouldn't look like we were leading it. Then they got a bunch of complaints from the general public about how that looked. So they came back and said walk away if you want to or you can stand where you are when it starts. Most other districts just still go on as they always have, no different than the 50's or 60's. As long as no one complains then they will do what they want, even if they know it is illegal. But there are absolutely legal ways for schools to allow prayers and even legal ways for coaches to pray legally, so long as we aren't initiating or leading those prayers. There is an establishment clause that many people refer to as "separation of church and state," however the Supreme Court has decided that the state does not have to be adversarial toward religion, it just has to be neutral. So technically, it doesn't have to be totally separate, just can't endorse nor can it interfere. For example, the courts have decided that public school systems can provide bus transportation to private Christian schools as long as they are offering transportation to any and all students attending any and all schools. Schools can rent out their facilities to churches for church services, as long as it is available to any and all groups regardless of beliefs. As long as it is not mandatory for everybody to participate..... The sad part is, the pledge of allegiance has fallen victim to that as well. You said The Pledge of Allegiance before games?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 6:34:40 GMT -6
I appreciate all of the posts here about how you continue to do team prayers because it's always been that way, but IMO it is extremely inappropriate for a coach to be any part of a "team prayer" if he's working at a public high school. If it's a group of players doing something on their own, that's one thing, but to have a whole team event is compelling participation in a specifically religious ceremony. If you want to pray, pray in private, keep it off of my publicly funded football field. Grouch So you are allowed a religious service on publicly funded football field? How do I get that? You are imposing your religious views on everybody else. Just understand I do not care either way, I think religion on the whole, regardless of what your denomination, faith is, kills people.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 6:35:50 GMT -6
As long as it is not mandatory for everybody to participate..... The sad part is, the pledge of allegiance has fallen victim to that as well. You said The Pledge of Allegiance before games? I say it in the class room, but I have to allow for differentiation.
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Post by fantom on Sept 11, 2017 6:50:48 GMT -6
You said The Pledge of Allegiance before games? I say it in the class room, but I have to allow for differentiation. I don't think that the Pledge is going away. I did a poll here and it seems that in places where the Pledge isn't being said, it never was.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 6:52:57 GMT -6
I say it in the class room, but I have to allow for differentiation. I don't think that the Pledge is going away. I did a poll here and it seems that in places where the Pledge isn't being said, it never was. The way things are going? It is going away, along with some other so called sacred things.
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Post by fantom on Sept 11, 2017 6:55:51 GMT -6
I don't think that the Pledge is going away. I did a poll here and it seems that in places where the Pledge isn't being said, it never was. The way things are going? It is going away, along with some other so called sacred things. Is that something that you've seen personally or something from a Facebook meme?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 6:58:46 GMT -6
The way things are going? It is going away, along with some other so called sacred things. Is that something that you've seen personally or something from a Facebook meme? I see it almost daily in the class room.
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Post by fantom on Sept 11, 2017 7:06:36 GMT -6
Is that something that you've seen personally or something from a Facebook meme? I see it almost daily in the class room. Does the school say the Pledge or not? When you say, "Almost daily", it seems to me that they;re supposed to but kids don't. BTW, not to hijack the thread, I have to answer the question of whether we have a team prayer with a definitive, "I don't know". We used to say one in the locker room before we took the ield. Now, I'm in the booth so as soon as I give my last defensive reminders, I haul my buttocks upstairs.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 7:11:24 GMT -6
I see it almost daily in the class room. Does the school say the Pledge or not? When you say, "Almost daily", it seems to me that they;re supposed to but kids don't. BTW, not to hijack the thread, I have to answer the question of whether we have a team prayer with a definitive, "I don't know". We used to say one in the locker room before we took the ield. Now, I'm in the booth so as soon as I give my last defensive reminders, I haul my buttocks upstairs. The lines on values, the lines on right and wrong are being distorted. It is evident in the class room, and it is not the kids I blame. The kids are just a symptom. If values and right and wrong are distorted long enough, what is sacred will change. If you say it loud enough and long enough, people believe and accept it as truth.
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Post by PSS on Sept 11, 2017 7:27:52 GMT -6
I appreciate all of the posts here about how you continue to do team prayers because it's always been that way, but IMO it is extremely inappropriate for a coach to be any part of a "team prayer" if he's working at a public high school. If it's a group of players doing something on their own, that's one thing, but to have a whole team event is compelling participation in a specifically religious ceremony. If you want to pray, pray in private, keep it off of my publicly funded football field. Grouch So you are allowed a religious service on publicly funded football field? How do I get that? You are imposing your religious views on everybody else. Just understand I do not care either way, I think religion on the whole, regardless of what your denomination, faith is, kills people. I believe that it is more accepted and expected in certain areas of the country. We even had a student lead the prayer over the loud speaker at last years graduation. I'm a believer and don't have a problem with it. Our kids expect it and honestly our community expects it.
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Post by fantom on Sept 11, 2017 7:43:50 GMT -6
Does the school say the Pledge or not? When you say, "Almost daily", it seems to me that they;re supposed to but kids don't. BTW, not to hijack the thread, I have to answer the question of whether we have a team prayer with a definitive, "I don't know". We used to say one in the locker room before we took the ield. Now, I'm in the booth so as soon as I give my last defensive reminders, I haul my buttocks upstairs. The lines on values, the lines on right and wrong are being distorted. It is evident in the class room, and it is not the kids I blame. The kids are just a symptom. If values and right and wrong are distorted long enough, what is sacred will change. If you say it loud enough and long enough, people believe and accept it as truth. What the hell are you talking about?
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Post by rcole on Sept 11, 2017 8:09:20 GMT -6
The pledge is said every single day over the PA in the schools here. Has been forever. It is then followed by a moment of silence. The students do have the option of not saying the pledge. I see all the time on Facebook how we no longer do the pledge in schools and it couldn't be further from the truth. I assume he is referring to the fact that the students have the option of not saying it and many choose not to. For the record, I'm all for the establishment clause and coaches NOT leading prayers although I myself am religious. I am also fine with the kids not being required to say the pledge although I myself say the pledge. Our heritage as Americans has always been that we are a bunch of anti-establishment rabble rousers who don't like to be told what to do and bristle if we are made to do anything. From day one to now. Being contrarian and independent minded is being quintessentially American. I am a rule follower myself and I have a tendency to be "patriotic" in the modern sense of the word, but I can recognize that the opposite attitude is more consistent with our history and our heritage.
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Post by rcole on Sept 11, 2017 8:22:25 GMT -6
An interesting element of the modern discussion on the establishment clause is that most do not know it was an idea that originated with Christians who didn't want to be persecuted for being the wrong kind of Christian. We forget that there was a time that Christians jailed and even killed other Christians for being the wrong kind of Christian. Our "separation of Church and state" idea was designed to protect religious people (at the time Christians). Interestingly, these minority denominations that wanted the establishment clause back then have grown to be the dominant churches today and often find the clause they once championed inconvenient. Often when there are complaints about school or government sponsored religious activity, it is actually Christians who object to it. There are quite a lot of Christians today that object to other Christian church's version of Christianity and wouldn't want their children influenced by that group. My parents were absolutely that way. They would have complained even though we were Christian ourselves.
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Post by hunhdisciple on Sept 11, 2017 8:27:06 GMT -6
We do after games, and that's about it. The parents make a bigger deal about it than anybody else. We lost a close, ugly game last year in a heavy rain. When we decided to go back to the locker room instead, parents acted like we were the worst humans on the planet. The kids wanted to get in and go home, we wanted to forget the game. The parents didn't seemed as bothered by the loss as they did the lack of standard "Jesus keep us safe" prayer.
I'm not a religious person, but it doesn't bother me. My only issue is it feels like the same thing every week. It feels rehearsed and never genuine.
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