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Post by tothehouse on Jun 7, 2016 14:11:00 GMT -6
Preface - I'm the DC at our school. Been here 17 years. My son will be a junior next year and is projected to be the starting QB. Earlier this year he was named as one of the captains of the team (6 total).
This past weekend he went to a leadership conference. He was nominated by his teachers and was eventually picked to represent our school.
Over the weekend he learned a ton of ways to lead people. He was inspired in ways I'm very proud of. I wasn't sure if he was going to like the conference. He came home and told me it was "life changing".
This made him think of how our team could benefit from some of the things he learned.
My son decides to call a team meeting before our summer sessions start to address the selfishness and laziness that the team has had during the spring. He proceeds to "call out" a good friend of his (one of the WR's) about how lazy he is and how "cool" he acts, etc. He got some things off his chest.
The problem is...it wasn't taken to heart by the majority. He told me other captains were even laughing at some of the stuff he said.
The other problem my son has is that he knows what the program used to be. We used to kill everyone. We were nationally ranked. My son grew up on the highlight films. He watched those instead of Pixar movies, etc. He looked up to numerous players. Our current group of seniors to be have won 2 games in their HS career. The varsity team has won 4 games in the last 3 years.
My son sees what it was like. Knows what it takes to get there. But isn't getting anywhere because he's the Lone Ranger on the way he's thinking. For all the great stuff he learned at the conference...the first time he truly tried to lead...he got {censored} on by his peers, etc.
He and I have talked (and will talk more) about this. He wants to not say anything now. And I'm telling him the opposite. You speak LOUDER. I'll be talking with the HC (who is not a rah rah guy) about generating life into the program. And the fact that a kid is trying to do this. I'm in a tough spot because he's my son, but I've already told him that part of my plan was to teach these guys some of the old school mentality that brought us victories. I'm not sure that can help getting past kids that don't mind losing.
Signed - Frustrated
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Post by dytmook on Jun 7, 2016 15:20:00 GMT -6
Well I would tell him to lead by example and words and keep going. If they don't follow that's their fault. Doing it the previous way lead to 2 wins. It's obviously not working. It's tough, but kids have to learn to win and it's easier to accept mediocrity than work hard.
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Post by spreadattack on Jun 7, 2016 16:20:02 GMT -6
Hard to know why the message wasn't received without being in the room. There are lots of ways to lead, and sometimes it takes different methods and sometimes people don't want to be led. Calling a team meeting in order to call out specific teammates may or may not have been an example of effective leadership; I just don't know.
The good news is part of playing high school sports, particularly football, is you get to see different styles of leadership, see what works, what doesn't work, try leadership tactics yourself, etc., in a low stakes environment. I'm sure your son wants to make sure the team reaches its potential this season. But the more important thing is that he learns lessons about leadership -- good and bad -- that he can use the rest of his life.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 7, 2016 16:54:58 GMT -6
Hard to know why the message wasn't received without being in the room. There are lots of ways to lead, and sometimes it takes different methods and sometimes people don't want to be led. Calling a team meeting in order to call out specific teammates may or may not have been an example of effective leadership; I just don't know. I think this was a very diplomatic way of putting it coach. tothehouse It may be hard for you to see clearly in this situation because it is your son, but from the other's perspective : A Kid (Jr, not senior) who was not a starter last year (or at least it doesn't sound like he was the starting QB if he is only projected this year, maybe he started elsewhere) but is a coach's son goes to a conference that 95% couldn't care less about...comes back, and unilaterally calls a team meeting in which he begins to badmouth, putdown, and criticize OTHER kids. Again, this is just going by what you described, but to be honest, I don't see much leadership here. To me, it doesn't seem like the best leadership technique for this situation. That kind of unilateral, in public dress down seems better suited when the person up there is THE alpha, and there are no doubts. Not a situation where he is one of six captains, and has never really shown he is the alpha under the lights. Lebron can do that..Kobe could do that. JJ Watt or Von Miller could do that. Jeter could have done that. Interestingy enough (and just an observation) Peyton Manning seemed much less confrontational, and much less authoritarian in his leadership role this past year, because quite frankly he knew he wasn't "THE" Alpha. When you call others out in public, you better be damn sure your game is beyond reproach. I think that he should have first gotten with the captains, and organized a 6 member unified approach. Also, I think it should have all been "I and we" and no "you" when talking about what needs to be done. "I pledge to _______" "We pledge to _________" Now the more difficult part is how to go forward. I don't know if I agree with you that he has to be "louder" for the reasons I stated above. Right now it would just be noise, not leadership. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 7, 2016 17:12:47 GMT -6
--Thinking more about the future, perhaps his best bet is to bring in the other 5 captains, apologize a bit for being unilateral, but explain what he was trying to accomplish, and then suggest that the 6 of them TOGETHER devise a plan to get them where they want to be. He can use those leadership techniques to get the 6 in the fold in private and then they can present a unified front.
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Post by coachklee on Jun 7, 2016 18:35:04 GMT -6
Holy {censored}! Tough spot. Basically like @coachs5085 said, if your son isn't the ALPHA amongst the team & especially the other captains other teammates won't listen. Some kids / people just kind of have that type of status & some don't...no idea why...
Lots of cliche or historical comparisons come to mind, but none of them really help...unfortunately groups sometimes choose to follow bad leaders despite a perfectly good leader being in front of them. Probably the only way to overcome your son calling players out is for the HC to quietly back him & drive a cultural shift that is apparently badly needed...not sure what real advice I have unless the HC is the same guy that was around during the glory years & can somehow re-connect with this group & in particular, the real leader / ALPHA of this group.
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 7, 2016 19:46:11 GMT -6
He was on the varsity last year as a soph. Started at FS and got some reps at QB.
I'm going to see if the HC can get the captains together to discuss this further. He took a chance and learned he needed more comrades with him.
He's sick of losing...where others seem okay with it.
I'd rather this come to a head now rather than halfway through the season. I also think it takes someone (or a group...like captains) to speak up. One of the problems...one of the captains was one of the ones who scoffed. (Kid shouldn't be one...but it's not my call).
Yep..tough spot, but I know how I'm going to run the defense. If it isn't enthusiastic and guys look like they don't give a chit...go do something else.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 7, 2016 19:50:24 GMT -6
He was on the varsity last year as a soph. Started at FS and got some reps at QB. I'm going to see if the HC can get the captains together to discuss this further. He took a chance and learned he needed more comrades with him. He's sick of losing...where others seem okay with it. I'd rather this come to a head now rather than halfway through the season. I also think it takes someone (or a group...like captains) to speak up. One of the problems...one of the captains was one of the ones who scoffed. (Kid shouldn't be one...but it's not my call). Yep..tough spot, but I know how I'm going to run the defense. If it isn't enthusiastic and guys look like they don't give a chit...go do something else. Not sure if I would "get the HC" to do this. I think that is/was part of the problem. He is viewed as the "coach's kid". Having the HC now follow up on it, makes it look like he is simply an extension of the coaches. I think having HIM reach out to the other captains first might prove more beneficial. |
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Post by silkyice on Jun 7, 2016 19:55:28 GMT -6
Coach sorry about this incident.
I have just a few observations and will try to not sound like a complete jerk.
First, y'all were a NATIONALLY ranked program and now your team is winning 4 games in three years? What the heck?
Second, your son is junior. If this were me, and it isn't and I certainly don't know your circumstance, but I would get the heck out of that place if you can especially after what just happened.
Third, unfortunately, your son got manipulated by this leadership conference. I know this is probably an unjustified comment, but those things have always sounded made up and hokey. Leaders are leaders. Leadership opportunities happen, they aren't planned. Someone can become a better leader, but a conference can't make someone a leader (but it does sound like it can make them a worse leader). A conference can help a leader recognize leadership opportunities, but again, real ones can't be planned. Who advised him on this? This conference unfortunately might have ruined his entire high school experience.
One last thing, coaches and teachers can appoint captains and send kids to conferences and all that jazz, but leaders are just leaders whether they are captains or good or bad or whatever. Leaders just are.
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 7, 2016 20:54:13 GMT -6
Silk -
1. I can explain the losses a little bit, but the story is long. In 1999 our student population was 2900. By the end of next school year...it will be 1400. But we haven't dropped in our division. And we play in one of the toughest conferences in the state of California. A state champion has come from our league every year since 2010. A change in head coaches...for a million reasons also plays a role here. I can name 50 other things...but I won't.
2. Hard to do that...but I hear what you're saying. The thing that concerned me the most is when my son said..."Dad...I'd play for any of the teams from 1999 to 2010 in a heartbeat. That is what I expected it to be like...and it's not." Hard to explain the whole story to him without dragging players, coaches, adults into the conversation. That's not appropriate for him to hear right now. I'm going to talk to the HC and just see what the plan is in general.
3. I knew there would be hocus pocus at this conference. Definitely not something geared towards athletics, etc. I do think that some of the stuff he talked about can be gleaned in a way to help with the program.
I'm keeping my eye on him because he got hit hard today for trying. That isn't right. Takes a lot of courage to stand up in front of your peers to speak your mind. And to get kicked in the nuts...speaks to a lot of things.
I don't say this publicly (even though I am now), but our seniors to be are the worst group of seniors to go through the school (2013 might be tied). The about to be juniors won our tough league as freshman. Their 8th grade team won a championship. They understand winning. The others...don't.
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Post by coachpech on Jun 7, 2016 20:59:38 GMT -6
Preface - I'm the DC at our school. Been here 17 years. My son will be a junior next year and is projected to be the starting QB. Earlier this year he was named as one of the captains of the team (6 total). This past weekend he went to a leadership conference. He was nominated by his teachers and was eventually picked to represent our school. Over the weekend he learned a ton of ways to lead people. He was inspired in ways I'm very proud of. I wasn't sure if he was going to like the conference. He came home and told me it was "life changing". This made him think of how our team could benefit from some of the things he learned. My son decides to call a team meeting before our summer sessions start to address the selfishness and laziness that the team has had during the spring. He proceeds to "call out" a good friend of his (one of the WR's) about how lazy he is and how "cool" he acts, etc. He got some things off his chest. The problem is...it wasn't taken to heart by the majority. He told me other captains were even laughing at some of the stuff he said. The other problem my son has is that he knows what the program used to be. We used to kill everyone. We were nationally ranked. My son grew up on the highlight films. He watched those instead of Pixar movies, etc. He looked up to numerous players. Our current group of seniors to be have won 2 games in their HS career. The varsity team has won 4 games in the last 3 years. My son sees what it was like. Knows what it takes to get there. But isn't getting anywhere because he's the Lone Ranger on the way he's thinking. For all the great stuff he learned at the conference...the first time he truly tried to lead...he got {censored} on by his peers, etc. He and I have talked (and will talk more) about this. He wants to not say anything now. And I'm telling him the opposite. You speak LOUDER. I'll be talking with the HC (who is not a rah rah guy) about generating life into the program. And the fact that a kid is trying to do this. I'm in a tough spot because he's my son, but I've already told him that part of my plan was to teach these guys some of the old school mentality that brought us victories. I'm not sure that can help getting past kids that don't mind losing. Signed - Frustrated IMO....Your son "calling" out a WR because he's lazy and hasnt been putting the time in the weightroom is one thing. But calling him out for acting "cool" is a personal attack that's based off your sons interpretations of this kid. That's a personal attack and I wouldve laughed at your son too. I'm assuming your son was acting on emotions from the conference and clearly does have good intentions. There's just much better ways to get his point across with his actions rather then words. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 7, 2016 21:12:53 GMT -6
Silk - I'm keeping my eye on him because he got hit hard today for trying. That isn't right. Takes a lot of courage to stand up in front of your peers to speak your mind. And to get kicked in the nuts...speaks to a lot of things. Like silkyice I am going to comment here and try to sound like a jerk, but again coach, I think you are (understandably) a bit blinded because this is your son. As was mentioned, without being in the room and hearing EVERYTHING, and based on what you have described, it sounds like he just called out everyone ELSE. Have you talked to him about that? My (and most of the posters here I would bet) first reaction to being called out by someone in public would be to try and kick them in the nuts too. It seems like that would be even MORE likely an outcome from a group such as you described. |
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 7, 2016 21:14:16 GMT -6
I wasn't there and don't know exactly what he said...or how he said it. I know the intentions were there...the delivery could have been sketchy.
But coach...I can't stand "cool" kids that haven't proved anything. The teams that win around here...aren't cool. They kick your ass. Screw cool.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 7, 2016 21:15:08 GMT -6
It's tough when you're a junior, I can only think of two that I've coached who had the respect of the locker room enough to try to pull something like that off. Both were starters as sophomores and we're the best player on the team their junior year and everybody knew it. Unfortunately (and this may be a factor in how they were able to gain that standing) both also had a relatively weak senior class in front of them.
I do think he'd be better served by getting the other captains involved and approaching it more as "figuring out what we all need to do to get where we need to be" rather than assigning blame for where we are currently.
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 7, 2016 21:18:32 GMT -6
5085, et. al. He wasn't calling kids out. He called "a kid" out. The whole discussion was about getting more excited as a team. Show more emotion. It started because the weight room is dead. And when people are asked to get excited for their teammate they don't...or it's forced/fake. He went in there to talk with them about lighting a spark and getting ready for a tough season. Wasn't a bitch session. He also owned on things he's working on himself.
And...yes I'm "blinded", but I have been around great coaches who have had kids go through the program and modeled what they have done in the sense of separation of Dad and Coach.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 7, 2016 21:46:17 GMT -6
It absolutely sucks when the losers are the "cool" guys in the program, I've been in that senior class and its miserable to go through. I think that going after everybody at once is probably a losing battle in this situation, are there smaller groups that he might be able to get on board first? I agree with the idea of approaching the captain group in a smaller setting to see about getting on the same page, but what about others in his Junior class? You said they know about winning, etc. can he connect with some of them to get a group that wants to model the support and enthusiasm needed? Just seems that in the culture you describe its going to be hard to make a sweeping change, but maybe he'd have better luck with a couple of small groups first and then maybe the culture starts to change a little and it builds off itself.
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 7, 2016 21:59:13 GMT -6
Talked with the HC. He's going to approach the group tomorrow. My way of thinking is this. My son exposed the problem that might not have gotten discussed that much until later on. Now...the conversation and teaching will begin. We know that it needs to be done. Has to be done.
Bottomline...the talk should have been more straight forward..."I want to win really bad guys. I want you with me when we do. Check the egos at the door. You with me?"
Obviously...we aren't to that point yet.
I'm just glad someone stood up and took the bullet. Whether it was my son or someone else. Sometimes you don't want to hear the ugly side of things because you don't think it is that way. Other people have to point it out. Then they all fix it together.
That's the hope.
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Post by coachpech on Jun 8, 2016 8:02:06 GMT -6
I believe you mentioned that you're the DC, it's awesome that your son did this from the players perspective but what have you done as one of coaches to address these issues that your son addressed?
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 8, 2016 8:23:23 GMT -6
Pech - We have a football class. I'm not in the class. HC is addressing the conversation today.
I will be addressing the situation by finding out what players have some guts when we officially get going here soon. Take my son out of the equation. I'm sick of losing as well. I want to see who has the will and guts to go beyond THEMSELVES and play for their brother next to them. We'll be setting weekly goals to address what each player will be attempting to fix about themselves and what they will be doing for the team. The sooner they understand US, and get rid of me, we can start playing football.
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Post by rsmith627 on Jun 8, 2016 8:38:34 GMT -6
Taking that it is your son out of the equation, losing is a culture. It is a bitch of a culture to try and overcome.I have been in a few schools where we inherited a losing culture, and it was a long and worthwhile fight. Took a couple of seasons.
Year 1: Minimal weight room attendance. We started freshman over seniors on varsity if they showed up to work out consistently. Practices were a joke. Kids tossing the ball around like little league when they should be engaged in what we are doing as a team. Get the F out of here. Seniors leaving is sometimes addition by subtraction.
Year 2: A bit better. More upperclassmen attended workouts consistently, our freshman had meaningful game experience (albeit not positive experience) and everybody got stronger. We still started 14 or so sophomores on varsity and got beat up on, but we were more competitive.
Year 3: Let's go! All cancerous kids are out of the program. Guys are hype in the weight room encouraging each other to break their old records every day. When you break a record go hit the gong. The gong is going off crazy, kids are going wild and celebrating their weight room success, which carried over to the practice field and the game field. We win the conference, have our first playoff appearance in 6-7 years, and get bounced in round 1, but all in all a very successful year and something to build on going forward.
I'm not longer there, but the program continues getting stronger by the year. These cultures are tough to fight, but it can be done. It takes strong leadership from the coaches, and key contributors on the field. Your son will be a strong leader, even if he hasn't quite figured out how to go about it yet.
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 8, 2016 10:31:50 GMT -6
What is tough coach...is the schedule. I look at most teams around our parts. We'd compete/win in almost every other league in the Sacramento region. Our conference is so brutal that nobody wants to even schedule the teams in it.
I look at that as a challenge. I don't mind it. But trying to turn the culture around when you're getting stomped each week is tough. Mix in a few wins and the tide could turn, but when the next opponent you play is better than the previous one...each week...it's tough.
Looking forward to getting out of the funk. Hopefully....sooner than later.
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Post by Defcord on Jun 8, 2016 10:36:36 GMT -6
I think it should have been some what expected that kids reacted the way they did. I don't think you can be in a situation with a lack discipline and expectations and have a William Wallace moment where you give some bug speech and everyone blindly follows you. Expectations are built through trust and consistency. They are expected outcomes in a given situation. The teammates described have been acting a certain way and a few harsh words honest or not aren't going to change that. It will take time and action to change the culture.
If my son were in that situation, I would tell him you better be the first one there and you better work your asss off while you are there. Let them know while you are asking more of them you are also giving more of you. I would tell him to ask his teammates to hold him accountable when he does slip and that they have to be willing to push each throughout the process. And just like in coaching each person is not the same. Being a hardass isn't going to motivate everyone. Find a way to buold relationships with the other guys. People will fight for each other if they care about each other.
Being a leader is very tough. The essence of leadership is getting people to do things they don't want to do. It's a process and this experience could end up being very rewarding for your son's learning process.
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Post by NC1974 on Jun 8, 2016 11:29:45 GMT -6
This is a tough one. It takes a lot of maturity to talk about stuff like this and many high school guys I think naturally are uncomfortable with it. Personally, I think it comes down to the coaches first, and then players having clear expectations for ACTIONS i.e. show up on time/early, finish every drill by running through the cone, pursuing to a whistle.
I think it gets a little harder when you start looking at a kid's personality traits or nonverbals as indicators of how committed they are to a team. There are so many different personality types:
-The kid who acts cool or aloof off of the field, but busts his a$$ on the field
-Or the kid that says all the right things and is really rah rah, but doesn't always give full efffort.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's good to demand certain basics: i.e. eye contact, answering yes,no as opposed to huh, yeah. But it's hard to make a naturally quiet kid into a rah rah kid.
I don't know. I commend your son for caring and taking a risk. I'd say there is no question his heart is in the right place. But without all the other info, I'm not shocked by some of the kids' reactions:
-it could be the kids who reacted poorly are dogs and will be a problem all season
-it could be that they were uncomfortable and weren't sure how to react
-it could be that they don't feel that your son has earned that right yet
Just a quick story from years ago. Late in game, there is a bit of a dust-up among the defensive squad. Apparently the Mike was trying to rile up the guys, light a spark. The NT took exception to it and told him to F-off. Well the LB's side of the story after the game was the NT quit on the team. The thing is, there was no evidence of that on film. The only evidence was the NT telling the Mike to F off. In terms of the NT's play, he played his butt off to the whistle. Not that I condone the NT telling anyone to F-off, but his actions showed he played hard until the end. I guess my point is, actions need to speak louder than rhetoric.
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 8, 2016 11:38:58 GMT -6
Lessons learned...
1. It's okay to feel that way...to care. More people should feel the same way.
2. Talk with coach and captains on how to present feelings/topic to the rest of the team.
3. Careful about pointing people out (1 kid...who is actually a friend of his)
4. Be prepared to take heat for standing up.
5. Continue. Don't get discouraged when it doesn't go the way you thought.
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Post by natenator on Jun 8, 2016 11:47:12 GMT -6
If they're shooting at you then you're doing something right
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 8, 2016 12:42:48 GMT -6
I told him that Nate.
I said..."why does the President have the secret service?" Somebody has to take shots. People don't like what President's do sometimes...but they are the leader. Sometimes you've got to take shots. I'm really proud of the courage, the caring, etc. Not many people would have done what he did. Even if it was kind of jenky.
Supposed the team talk went well today...but I don't have details yet.
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Post by chi5hi on Jun 8, 2016 12:50:29 GMT -6
Why not invite one or more of the team captains from the "99 to 2010 teams to come ant talk with the kids? They would be closer in age to your guys, but still have earned some peer respect for living as a young adult.
Introduce him to your guys with a quick presentation...highlight reels etc...then leave the room so the kids are one-to-one. See what happens.
Just curious...why do you need 6 team captains? Too many chefs spoil the soup.
As for school population...there are many schools with far fewer students than your school has...and they win. Maybe its not "leadership" or the kids that's the problem. Its a poor carpenter who blames his tools.
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Post by Party@QB on Jun 8, 2016 13:42:10 GMT -6
I don't agree with the "if he's not a senior he can't lead" very few guys in high school will ever be able to lead the entire team.
I would say if the seniors are tuned out to being led by anyone, from the way it sounds, encourage him to build the younger ones. Lead them, and make them his focus.
If he wants to be a leader he will have to invest in those younger and he may not even be a player when they buy in or turn the program around, but he can be part of the shift in attitude.
Even if that is the case I would not discourage him from going all out every day, speaking up when a guy slacks, and going against the "normal" attitude.
The best leaders yell for guys to, "follow me!"
Not, "Go forward," Being yelled from behind.
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Post by tothehouse on Jun 8, 2016 13:58:00 GMT -6
Chi - I don't make the call on captains.
Have had former players (some who have had NFL experience) come back. Haven't attempted the "leaving the room" part.
Hey...I agree with your about carpenter blaming the tools. I'd be curious to see what any other carpenter in the country would have done with the tools we have had the last few years. It's one of those things you would have to see for yourself to actually understand. A team in our league sent a QB to U. of Washington. He set the national record for most TD passes in a season (90) and a career (200 something). That same team sent 8 players to D1 schools. Last year...that same team sent an O lineman to Alabama. He'll start for them this fall. Best player (all positions) I've ever seen on film. We have played some monsters and have beaten them. But there was a difference. Again...hard to explain if you're not directly in it.
The other part of this. Should the baseball and basketball teams think the same way? In 2014 our football, basketball, and baseball varsity teams combined for 1 league win. Is every coach on the campus terrible? Girls soccer scored 1 goal ALL SEASON this year. Softball hadn't won a league game in 5 years before this year. One great sport is lacrosse. They won a state title this year. But before anyone says anything...lacrosse in CA is a club sport. Therefore..."our" team wasn't "our" team. It was a mix of about 3 HS's together.
I feel, by far, I'm the most vocal about changes to the culture via weight room, etc. And not football. I feel like we are doing okay there. The school culture is what is hard to change yourself. It would be like me doing what my son did to the AD and all the other coaches. I can call out their lack of weight room programs. Lack of off season work, etc. I might get laughed at too, but it would need to be said.
Definitely not an easy fix, but we'll fight on.
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Post by mariner42 on Jun 8, 2016 14:41:38 GMT -6
Why not invite one or more of the team captains from the "99 to 2010 teams to come ant talk with the kids? They would be closer in age to your guys, but still have earned some peer respect for living as a young adult. Introduce him to your guys with a quick presentation...highlight reels etc...then leave the room so the kids are one-to-one. See what happens. Just curious...why do you need 6 team captains? Too many chefs spoil the soup. As for school population...there are many schools with far fewer students than your school has...and they win. Maybe its not "leadership" or the kids that's the problem. Its a poor carpenter who blames his tools. Honestly, knowing their situation, it's kinda like San Jose St trying to make it in the SEC. They have some nice tools, I've seen them in person, but the other guys have a bunch. |
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