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Post by 3rdandlong on Apr 13, 2016 8:21:18 GMT -6
I know this issue has been discussed before but I recently discovered that 2 coaches really hate me for throwing the ball late in the game with a big lead. I am very unapologetic for it because each of those teams were playing with 7-8 guys in the box and brining pressure vs our JV O-Line. Simple math and player safety dictates we should throw and throw quickly to protect our QB. It would be suicide for our RB if we ran right into that brick wall which they would have deemed as the classy thing to do. I'd much rather have then opposing coaches feelings hurt as opposed to my players getting physically hurt. And besides our QB is trained to throw the ball when the box is loaded. What are we supposed to do?
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Post by coachphillip on Apr 13, 2016 8:24:16 GMT -6
Did you leave the first string in? If not, backups deserve to score too. Not your fault if they can't stop the third string receiver from catching a slant from the third string QB and going 80 yards after catch for a TD. If they looked at themselves instead of at the actions of others, they may be able to stop you once in a while. If you're throwing fades to the starters, that's not cool.
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Post by bigmoot on Apr 13, 2016 8:25:13 GMT -6
If they were still playing with the #1s against your JV and bringing the house, then you do what you have to do sometimes.
Your responsibility is to your kids, not another coaches feelings.
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Post by **** on Apr 13, 2016 8:28:30 GMT -6
Screw em'. Can't make everybody happy.
Keep your kids safe.
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Post by blb on Apr 13, 2016 8:32:57 GMT -6
I know this issue has been discussed before but I recently discovered that 2 coaches really hate me for throwing the ball late in the game with a big lead. I am very unapologetic for it because each of those teams were playing with 7-8 guys in the box and brining pressure vs our JV O-Line. Simple math and player safety dictates we should throw and throw quickly to protect our QB. It would be suicide for our RB if we ran right into that brick wall which they would have deemed as the classy thing to do. I'd much rather have then opposing coaches feelings hurt as opposed to my players getting physically hurt. And besides our QB is trained to throw the ball when the box is loaded. What are we supposed to do?
Your only responsibility is to substitute.
And even at that some coaches (such as you described) don't know when to surrender, when the game is decided, and then get a mad on when the other team keeps playing.
It's not your job to stop your offense, it's theirs. Why run failure plays for your 2s? What kind of experience would that be?
Also it's not your fault they've got a bad team.
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Post by rudyrude9 on Apr 13, 2016 8:39:01 GMT -6
It is hard enough to coach your own team. Don't worry about what the other guy is doing with his team.
F em if they don't get it.
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Post by fcboiler87 on Apr 13, 2016 9:07:17 GMT -6
One of the better programs in our area is a run heavy team. When they get up on you they will spend 1-3 series working on their throwing game with their starters in before the substitute. They are just good. We have to be better and work to stop them.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 13, 2016 9:38:18 GMT -6
Beat a team once 60 something to 14. They were blitzing their first team against our backups. Soph rb getting killed. Threw screen for two td's in 4th quarter. The other team seemed to be fine, but it got back to me that week that their AD was complaining and said "no team should ever score 60 on another team. That is poor sportsmanship."
No joke, that very next Friday their team beat someone 60 something to zero. LOL
Beat a team 55-0 once in a similar situation. Their coach was livid after the game. Only time I have ever had a coach make a scene and be mad at me after a varsity game. What was funny is that he said "we might not know how to stop that play, but next year we will practice all week to stop it." I was like wth? That is an embarrassing thing to say. What is funny is that they already weren't on the schedule for next year!! LMAO
I almost said, "hey dumbass, we don't even play next year." But I thought better of it and just shook his hand and went to the locker room.
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Post by powerfootball71 on Apr 13, 2016 10:03:42 GMT -6
One of the most profound experiences I had was when I was coaching small school ball. For inshurance reasons it was required a a paid coach be at jv games so I ended up as a jv dc on Monday nights.
We played a team and lost by like 60 something and the team was throwing deep balls at the end of the game. I took exception to it and we had words after the game. Guy told me hey if your going to keep bringing it we're going to keep slinging it. We where a pretty blitz heavy 3-3 team at the time but the idea there was a time to admit defeat stuck with me.
On the other end as long as the defense has pulled there 1's when we got are 2's in when we have a big lead I'll do everything in my power to not throw it.
We where a pretty big rpo team but as a oline coach I personally think there is a time and place to work on running the ball with 7 or 8 in the box. So telling the 2nd qb hey its auto give or getting into heavy sets is what I do. Figure there is a running clock no need to embarress the kids but that's just me.
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Post by blitzology on Apr 13, 2016 10:03:59 GMT -6
John Heisman's 1916 Georgia Tech team beat Cumberland 222-0. There is no Heisman rule restricting what you do with your two's as a result. Teams getting blown out has happened forever and will continue into the future.
There is however a professional way to go about doing your beating down. With many spread offenses taking hold as the popular scheme there are issues. No TE, no H-Back, no Fullback means teams struggle to block a loaded box. 5 OL for 7 defenders is not going to work (on paper). That is why spread teams use read schemes, RPO's or other packaged plays to handle the loaded box situation. I personally think bubble is a run play, others will disagree. There are a number of the RPO schemes that are more down the field passing and if that is what you run so be it. If coaches, parents, opponents, etc. can't accept that throwing vs. a loaded box is the nature of the scheme that is unfortunate. I'm curious if these folks are equally as upset when a flex bone team has a big lead and runs veer for the 47th time. "Stop running option you jerks!"
I do think it is always good to have elements in your scheme that are available if you need to block a loaded box without passing. Having call it and run it schemes that can block the box is a good way to win short yardage, goal line, bad weather, 4 minute, and blowout situations. It is also good to have call it and hand it schemes if you have to play your backup QB because of blow out, injury, suspension, etc. Having those concepts in your playbook is not a "we only have this for a blowout' sort of thing but an element of a complete playbook in my opinion.
Regardless of what we decide to run, we must have a good plan laid out for our team about how we handle a big lead and practice it. We must coach the demeanor and sportsmanship we want from our players in those situations. We coach the tempo and way we are going to operate as a team in those situation.
You know what is right & wrong, you know what you are comfortable with doing, and you know what is good/bad sportsmanship. If you have to think too long about if it wrong or unsportsmanlike it probably is not something you should do. You can't make everyone happy. Try your best to do the right thing, be a professional, develop your players as men, and grow the game.
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Post by agap on Apr 13, 2016 10:26:00 GMT -6
I wouldn't have a problem with a team throwing the ball against us late as long as it's part of their offense and they've used it throughout the game. If they didn't throw deep all game and they started to when they were up by 40+, I wouldn't like it. At the same time, I wouldn't be upset because our defense should still stop them regardless of what they're doing.
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Post by pvogel on Apr 13, 2016 10:42:34 GMT -6
I agree that the only obligation is to substitute. That can get kind of tricky if youre at a small school with a limited roster but you at least gotta rest the studs.
Other than that, its a 4 minute drill. Great time to work on it with backups and for the playcaller to work on that situation as well. Milk the clock, try to work the ball down the field and keep the ball away from them. Sometimes you gotta throw in a 4 minute drill too if thats what theyre giving you. Look at the column on your callsheet that says 4 minute drill. Boom, there ya go.
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Post by blb on Apr 13, 2016 10:47:06 GMT -6
I feel it's more egregious when coaches who are behind and the game is obviously decided leave their 1s in when we have subbed, keep passing on offense to build up their stats or get cheap TDs to make score more respectable, defensively blitz every down to try to create turnovers, and onside kick with little time remaining and the game out of reach.
There has been a time or two when I left our 1s in longer than I normally would against such an opponent. Wasn't going to put our 2s in so they could get run over and humiliated.
Unfortunately those coaches don't get it or don't know any better.
One such guy had the guts to nominate his QB for all-conference because of his passing stats, a lot of which came because the kid and his starting WRs were still in until the games were over throwing every down when they were getting blown out.
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Post by pvogel on Apr 13, 2016 10:49:46 GMT -6
Funny irrelevant story -
I was a part of a very good team once. Rough kids, from the other side of the tracks, against the established status quo, yada yada. Were beating a team real bad and we score late with the backups to go up 78-6. Line up to kick the PAT. Holder bobbles it, rolls out, heaves up a prayer. Our kicker, who was crazy, runs full speed and obliterates the defender in the end zone that was camped underneath for the INT. Offensive PI on the kicker, which is crazy in its own right. Anyways, the scorebox for that last TD read "2-pt pass attempt failed". We heard all kinds of stuff from people who read the paper or posted on the fan forums and whatnot about how mean and terrible and classless we were... haha
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Post by blb on Apr 13, 2016 10:52:15 GMT -6
I wouldn't have a problem with a team throwing the ball against us late as long as it's part of their offense and they've used it throughout the game. If they didn't throw deep all game and they started to when they were up by 40+, I wouldn't like it. At the same time, I wouldn't be upset because our defense should still stop them regardless of what they're doing.
There have been some years-games where the best thing I could've done for a defeated opponent to hold the score down WAS to throw the ball.
For example I remember a game we won 54-6, called three passes - one was incomplete, got sacked on one, and a holding penalty on another.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 13, 2016 10:55:38 GMT -6
Offensive PI on the kicker, No words |
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Post by agap on Apr 13, 2016 11:01:01 GMT -6
I wouldn't have a problem with a team throwing the ball against us late as long as it's part of their offense and they've used it throughout the game. If they didn't throw deep all game and they started to when they were up by 40+, I wouldn't like it. At the same time, I wouldn't be upset because our defense should still stop them regardless of what they're doing.
There have been some years-games where the best thing I could've done for a defeated opponent to hold the score down WAS to throw the ball.
For example I remember a game we won 54-6, called three passes - one was incomplete, got sacked on one, and a holding penalty on another.
Good point, that is very true. That actually happened to us last season. A team started throwing the ball more late in the game and ended up turning the ball over twice on strip sacks. |
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Post by oriolepower on Apr 13, 2016 11:02:48 GMT -6
I've been on both sides with this one. When we were bad, I had to teach our team how to not quit, submit, and give up. I was that jerk that called timeouts and tried to score when we were down 48-0. Our kids had a problem with always quitting and I had to fix that problem.
Fortunately, things have turned around for a number of years and we've been good. We call off the dogs and teams know that we get very conservative. If teams are beating up our young kids we do throw to keep them honest.
As others have said, worry about your sideline and your team. You will never make everyone happy.
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Post by lochness on Apr 13, 2016 11:09:45 GMT -6
I think you approach it this way, in order of importance:
1. Substitute. Leave your starters in, and you deserve to be questioned.
2. Do what's best for your program and your kids.
3. Don't do anything to embarrass the players on the other team or your own program.
I can tell you that we don't throw it if we are way ahead, unless it's a bubble or hitch or something that's clearly designed for a quick gain and that's rare because those aren't key parts of our O. I like what pvogel said above. It's 4-minute drill. Sometimes that means you throw it. But, to each their own. Lots of guys hide behind the "it's your responsibility to stop me" story, and that works for them, but personally I wouldn't sleep well at night embarrassing another team... but that's just me and that's my problem. I feel it's my responsibility to win, but this isn't Madden Football, those are human beings on the other sideline and in the stands.
I also admit that each situation is different. We pull guys and you don't...And then you start tee-ing off on us and whooping it up because you dropped my 3rd string RB like a bad habit? Yeah, I'm not going to be so nice then.
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Post by coachcotner on Apr 13, 2016 11:13:48 GMT -6
Stop complaining and get better. That is all I have to say to people who complain about stupid stuff like this. I've been on the bad side of a blowout as a coach. Had a team in our conference onside up by 40. Go no huddle. Chuck it around. Absolutely trying to hang 100 on us because they knew they were good and we were bad. Not once did I complain about what they did. Get better. All there is to it.
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 13, 2016 11:24:15 GMT -6
If we are ahead we NEVER throw.. Again been there a bunch.. Up 42-7 .... 7-8 minutes in game.. I have my JV Guys in.. We just run our run plays... Something I believe in.
I have been on both sides of the equation and I have been on the other side of it too...
JV Guys get experience..
Varsity guys relax and stay fresh
Even if they keep their starters in I will not bring our starters back..
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 13, 2016 11:30:18 GMT -6
If we are ahead we NEVER throw.. Again been there a bunch.. Up 42-7 .... 7-8 minutes in game.. I have my JV Guys in.. We just run our run plays... Something I believe in. Are you 21 Personnel? I think the issue for some might be as has been mentioned : passing is part of "box control" for many offenses. |
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Post by dytmook on Apr 13, 2016 11:30:25 GMT -6
I've had my butt kicked more than my fair share of times being the JV guy for our school. We just run our offense and defense until the end of the game if we are getting smashed. I don't mind if you throw a hitch or an out with your back ups because it's part of the game and it's trying to humiliate someone.
I did one time get a running clock on a team. We tried to run the ball mostly, but if it was 3rd and 6 I would throw the ball with my back up WRs and QB. They deserve to get some spin too. Scored a TD on hitch to the kid who played center for me because we were that thin on the Oline.
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Post by blb on Apr 13, 2016 11:39:07 GMT -6
A less-obvious consideration is, if your back-up QB is an underclassmen who will likely be the starter the next season, only plays when the game is decided and you NEVER pass because you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings or it's just your philosophy - next year you have a QB with no experience passing in a game. Or even current season if starter gets hurt.
If it's a passing situation, pass the ball. Run your offense. You owe that to your 2s who practiced hard all week-year for their chance to show what they can do-have a positive experience.
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Post by spreadpowero on Apr 13, 2016 11:53:05 GMT -6
I know this issue has been discussed before but I recently discovered that 2 coaches really hate me for throwing the ball late in the game with a big lead. I am very unapologetic for it because each of those teams were playing with 7-8 guys in the box and brining pressure vs our JV O-Line. Simple math and player safety dictates we should throw and throw quickly to protect our QB. It would be suicide for our RB if we ran right into that brick wall which they would have deemed as the classy thing to do. I'd much rather have then opposing coaches feelings hurt as opposed to my players getting physically hurt. And besides our QB is trained to throw the ball when the box is loaded. What are we supposed to do? Run your offense. If they can't stop your 2nd string, that is their fault. Do not stop coaching just because the 2nd string is in the game. They have the right to score just as much as the starters. Now, just don't run any trick plays. Run the basic plays you have been running since the first week of practice. |
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Post by 3rdandlong on Apr 13, 2016 12:24:40 GMT -6
Great replies. We substituted our guys and there were not any trick plays. We had our JV O-line in, a back up QB and a 4th string RB. In both situations we were running our base 10 personnel package and were mostly running zone read with our backside perimeter screens- which seems to be the base play for 90% of the spread coaches out there. Well, they had 7 in the box and were playing a tight cover 0.
Well as many of you know that's not a look you really want to see when running that. We always have the play side receiver run a hitch and if the QB likes it, then he takes it. But if the Playside receiver is being pressed he converts to a fade. So in this instance- 7 in the box, my QB knows not to throw himself or the RB to the wolves when we only have 5 guys blocking. Man across the board, that backside perimeter screen is going to get blown up. So what's the best solution, fade to the Playside receiver who's being pressed. Receiver catches it and gets a huge gain. 5 months later, I'm classless.
I'm no longer coaching against the guys who said this but it bothered me and I considered explaining the reasoning to one of them because he's a guy I have a pretty good relationship with. But now I think I shouldn't because there's no reason to justify it and on top of it, it also goes to show that there are still a few people out there who don't understand the spread offense which I think is a good thing as long as we're playing them.
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Post by spreadpowero on Apr 13, 2016 13:18:31 GMT -6
We are graduating 9 starters on offense. Our second string scored on multiple teams this past year. That second string is now our first string. With the success we had this past season with our second O, I am feeling a lot better than I normally would have.
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Post by blb on Apr 13, 2016 13:49:20 GMT -6
I too have had my share of games where we got beat everywhere but the bottom of our feet.
When that happens, especially if it is too commonplace, you have three choices:
1. Get better players
2. Coach better
3. Change the schedule
...because you can't do anything about the teams-coaches administering the booty beatings.
I suspect some coaches who b!tch about others who "run up the score" on them are just deflecting blame for their team's poor performance. They sure aren't doing anything to correct the problem with their whining.
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Post by carookie on Apr 13, 2016 14:54:14 GMT -6
First off, I hate the premise of "If they don't like it they should stop it." How many bad things can we justify doing with that mantra.
That being written you are not in the wrong, if you are not trying to show someone up (and especially if they are bringing the heat) you have an obligation to protect your players. As I wrote, there could be a lot of reasons for you to pass (their pressure, work on certain things, it is your offense).
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Post by vanden48 on Apr 13, 2016 16:14:44 GMT -6
I took this team over this year. For the past 6 years they have been getting their lunch handed to them, maybe getting 2 wins a year, and when they lost they lost by 40-50.
This year the tables turned. We were winning games by an average of 50 points. I would pull my guys about in the 4th, sometimes after the 1st series of the 3rd quarter. I had two coaches confront me after the games this year, one tried to physically fight me!!
The 5th game of the year we were up 44-0 and they scored on my freshmen and sophomores. They then on-sided the kick which went to my Sr X WR who is on the line of my KOR. He took the kick across the field and returned it 55 yards for a TD. After the game the other coach told me I was classless and should have pulled all of my starters. But it is a small school, I don't have back-ups on special teams.
The 7th game of the year the other team was clearly out matched, we were up 56-14 in the 4th quarter. I was trying to run the clock out with 3 minutes left in the game. We were on the 35 going in and it was 4th and 4, I had all of my back-ups in. I called for the punt team, and we don't punt. They called time-out with a running clock. So I left the punt team, which would have been all seniors, on the bench and told the Offense to stay out. Now they have already scored on the back up defense twice, and both times got called for celebrating, the other team. I called a 90 pass, which is hitches by the X and Z on the outside and streaks by the Y and F on the inside. I told the QB to hit the hitch for the 1st we we could run down the clock. They sent the house and he threw to the F for a 35 yard TD. After the game one of their assistants chest bumped me, called me some very foul names, and wanted to fight me.
The first coach and I spoke later and I explained to him our special teams situation and he said he was just upset about losing, two years ago however he had no problem beating our team by 48 points.
The 2nd team sealed his fate and I will look to break the state scoring record on them this season.
Bottom line get upset at the scores if you want, it is a waste of time. Get you team better and don't get beat so bad.
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