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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2015 13:23:43 GMT -6
silkyice and jg78 I agree completely. As I mentioned in another thread about dwelling on your mistakes, this is the perfect example of why you shouldn't--because other than the coin toss, making a different choice doesn't ensure different results.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2015 13:27:41 GMT -6
If that happens fans want to hang the coach who is paid the big bucks to take the heat. Not some punter who normally is on the field very few plays per game. So are you trying to win the game? Or worry about taking the heat?
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2015 13:32:53 GMT -6
Both, I have seen lots of games and never seen anything like what happened, I still said I would go for it instead of take a chance of kicking the ball. Lots of crazy {censored} happens on special teams.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2015 13:40:47 GMT -6
The "if I bobble it" scenario. We can practice the what we are suppose to do all the time but what happens when the unexpected happens? Just like the QB is suppose to throw it to the receiver and not the DB or the holder is suppose to just catch and place but what if? We try to go over every possible scenario we can think of in practice but somethings are overlooked. That's all I'm saying. I gotcha. Question though...if he "bobbles it"...what would you have told him to do? Just fall on it? I can see that, BUT..that only works in THIS case. Do you also practice the "what if I bobble it and we are up by 2 with 10 seconds left and I am standing on my 20 instead of on my 38? You don't have to. As wolfden12 pointed out, you go over the worst case scenarios during the timeout. Just something as simple as, "if something crazy happens, fall on it." Also, why was someone split out? And I think Michigan State was wrong in having no one back for many reasons. Except of course I wrong because it worked. Also, I now realize that you don't always scoop and score on a block punt. That is what I tell my team. But if that guy would have gotten tackled and time ran out, everyone would be saying, he should have just recovered it so they could kick the FG. Of course, I am wrong here again, because it worked. Just shows how many amazing and improbable things can happen that are hard/impossible to prepare for because if just one variable changes, then what?
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2015 13:44:32 GMT -6
Both, I have seen lots of games and never seen anything like what happened, I still said I would go for it instead of take a chance of kicking the ball. Lots of crazy {censored} happens on special teams. I do think your decision is heavily impacted by the fact that you coach HS football, not Div 1 college football. Makes sense though, as we are all influenced by our experiences.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2015 13:50:03 GMT -6
I do have one huge and gigantic point to make though. I watched that play live. I didn't realize that the punter actually tried to punt until 5 minutes later. That was the stupid part.
I really thought he bobbled twice and by that time they got to him. I was so busy texting all my other coaches about what happened, it wasn't until later that I really saw what happened.
What do they tell the punters in spring, summer, and all year in regards to what to do in that situation? By that situation, I mean ANY bobbled snap on a punt. Surely you tell him to eat that. And surely you go over that. And if it happens in the endzone, you even practice making sure it is a safety.
That on top of coming out of a timeout is the problem.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2015 13:54:37 GMT -6
I have watched more college and pro games than high school games. A blocked punt and or return is very likely in div1 ncaa.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2015 14:07:10 GMT -6
I have watched more college and pro games than high school games. A blocked punt and or return is very likely in div1 ncaa. As likely as getting stopped on 4th and 2? I think not. You keep saying how bad the MSU kicker is, but remember, we are already talking about a FLUKE play. So they may have thrown up a hail mary or two. --now it is either: incomplete, complete, or you get a PI and a chance for a FG. All rare, but so is the scoop and score. And keep in mind as silkyice mentioned, in this flukey case, the scoop and score attempt could have been a negative had time expired and the player had been tackled. I think you are exhibiting textbook confirmation bias here but by the same token, I don't think any decision would be "wrong" in this case. Just poor execution.
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Post by NC1974 on Oct 18, 2015 14:11:39 GMT -6
In regards to the fans that will blame this on the punter, I love this excerpt from Teddy Roosevelt
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2015 14:14:38 GMT -6
Even if you get stopped on 4th and 2 a lot has to happen to score, a hell of a lot! Even though 3 beats you.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2015 14:21:02 GMT -6
Even if you get stopped on 4th and 2 a lot has to happen to score, a hell of a lot! Even though 3 beats you. Umm..John, after seeing the play unfold the way it did, are you really supporting your argument with "a lot has to happen to score"
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2015 14:26:19 GMT -6
So you are saying it was fate, they were going to get beat by a fluke no matter what? BS, line up get the first down or if not it would take some fluke to beat you any ways. At least you control your own destiny and give your offense a chance to get the first down. If the ball is on the minus forty, whole different deal.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2015 14:30:30 GMT -6
I still say and said so before the play, go for it with ten seconds to go and don't take a chance of special teams losing the game.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2015 14:35:54 GMT -6
So you are saying it was fate, they were going to get beat by a fluke no matter what? BS, line up get the first down or if not it would take some fluke to beat you any ways. At least you control your own destiny and give your offense a chance to get the first down. If the ball is on the minus forty, whole different deal. No, not saying it was fate at all. Just saying your support is kind of spotty. What I read from you is : "I wouldn't have punted, lots of crazy things can happen on special teams. I would have gone for it, because if we get stopped, lots of crazy things have to happen for us to lose it" I am well versed in the concept of expected value, so I understand your argument. I just think you are inaccurate in assigning the probabilities. And keep in mind, they controlled their own destiny on 1st , 2nd, and 3rd down. That said, I acknowledge that you said this before the play happened, and you are definitely NOT an example of armchairing.
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Post by blb on Oct 18, 2015 14:39:04 GMT -6
I've seen more "Hail Marys" win games on last play than fumbled punt snaps like yesterday.
Are those "flukes"?
Also the snap was low. That and the punter rushing to get kick off both contributed to the fumble and resultant MSU TD.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2015 15:16:25 GMT -6
I literally flipped channels from the Bama game as that last play started. I have gone back and reveiwed a little and agree with John Knight. Michigan had the ball in Mich St territory on the +47. Even if they don't get the first down, they will run enough time off the clock to make sure that there is only one more play. A FG is irrelevant here. Why not have your offense try and win it or then your defense defend a last second hailmary pass? Of course, I still stand by my earlier statement that if you do that and then fumble..... I do know this, I would not have punted as a high school coach ever in that situation. Bad snap, bobbled snap blocked kick, and punt return for TD are all more likely than not picking up the first down and giving up a hailmary TD. And yes, we even have a play for this exact situation. QB (our best player by far) sweep to unbalanced set with someone positioned behind him following just in case of a bad snap or fumble. Kills time, is as safe as possible (no handoff) and a trail man and gives us a chance to get the first down. That being said, the decision to punt is not a bad one. Just not the best one. The decison to have someone still split out is awful. The decison to not tell or not practice your punter on what do on a mishandled/bad snap is abhorrent and the true mistake by Michigan coaching staff.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2015 15:17:37 GMT -6
Usually they are flukes. Over 50 yards is a lot. I still think a good 4 th a 2 play is a better option in this situation
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2015 15:22:57 GMT -6
Does Michigan always roll right on their punts? That is a big factor in what happened.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 18, 2015 15:42:30 GMT -6
I do know this, I would not have punted as a high school coach ever in that situation. Bad snap, bobbled snap blocked kick, and punt return for TD are all more likely than not picking up the first down and giving up a hailmary TD. I think I would agree in HS. Primarily due to snap or return. I don't agree in this case. Also, I don't think the split out was a "decision" but rather poor execution. Not sure if they decided to not tell or practice the punter either.
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Post by Coach.A on Oct 18, 2015 16:07:51 GMT -6
I do know this, I would not have punted as a high school coach ever in that situation. Bad snap, bobbled snap blocked kick, and punt return for TD are all more likely than not picking up the first down and giving up a hailmary TD. What would your decision be in high school if the ball was on your own 30 yard line in that scenario? Not criticizing your decision, just curious how/if that would change how you went about it.
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Post by John Knight on Oct 18, 2015 16:41:31 GMT -6
Depends on opponents kicker
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2015 16:57:52 GMT -6
I do know this, I would not have punted as a high school coach ever in that situation. Bad snap, bobbled snap blocked kick, and punt return for TD are all more likely than not picking up the first down and giving up a hailmary TD. What would your decision be in high school if the ball was on your own 30 yard line in that scenario? Not criticizing your decision, just curious how/if that would change how you went about it. Depends greatly on the kicker. But stopping a hailmary from 30 is a lot harder in high school than from the opposing 47. High school QB's can definitely get it in the endzone from the say 35. I added in 5 yards behind LOS. But from the 42? That is a 58 yard throw. And actually probably needs to travel at least 60. I would say that only 25% of qb's we face can do that under pressure. To answer your question, we are going to try and draw them offsides and call a timeout!!!! Lol
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Oct 18, 2015 19:27:56 GMT -6
one thing we practice every week is taking a safety...
While that would not work in a 2 point game, some of the principles would have...
I am a Niner fan and ever since we played the Ravens in the super bowl we have used a new method of blocking on "take a safety"
We hold and tackle the defenders - just as John Harbaugh had his team do to the Niners...
Time is more valuable to run off then yards - so take as much time as possible...
So we have every kid hold/tackle their man and do anything other than steal his wallet until the whistle blows...
Every Michigan guy could have held and tackled their guy - and still try to punt... Now if he catches the snap (seems to have been a problem when he had a major case of sphincteritis) he quick kicks... if they called for a penalty, what happens? holding and rekick? or take ball at spot but time probably ran out? If they make us rekick with 3 seconds left - you can run around and slide or have your qb launch one high and deep so times run out...
Would I have thought of all that in that moment? probably not... but we will now practice it... haha
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Post by blb on Oct 18, 2015 20:38:39 GMT -6
We don't know what was or wasn't discussed during Time Out with Michigan punter - or practiced earlier.
The snap was low. He was going to rush (one-step and kick) to get it off against 11-man rush. That's what caused the calamity for U-M.
Plus MSU still had to recover it and run it in.
IF Michigan had scored one more TD instead of kicking three FGs...
IF they hadn't given up a 74-yard pass play to a fat azz FB that led to MSU's third TD when leading by nine in 4th Quarter...
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Post by silkyice on Oct 18, 2015 22:19:17 GMT -6
We don't know what was or wasn't discussed during Time Out with Michigan punter - or practiced earlier. The snap was low. He was going to rush (one-step and kick) to get it off against 11-man rush. That's what caused the calamity for U-M. Plus MSU still had to recover it and run it in. IF Michigan had scored one more TD instead of kicking three FGs... IF they hadn't given up a 74-yard pass play to a fat azz FB that led to MSU's third TD when leading by nine in 4th Quarter... We don't know what was discussed. But, I sure as heck am betting mishandling the punt was not discussed. One step and kick is not true. Watch the play. He clearly is going to his right. That is at least a three step punt. At least. The movement really hurt his ability to adjust to a bad snap and to recover his mishandled snap.
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Post by WingTheT on Oct 19, 2015 9:30:17 GMT -6
I feel like you can practice it, but kickers will be kickers and WILL freak out...we had a similar situation this season but luckily it only costed us a shut out rather than the W.
No matter what you tell a kid, they will probably freak out since in HS they might only be ages 15-18....and I've done some pretty dumb things past the age of 18....so yeah
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Oct 19, 2015 9:35:32 GMT -6
I don't think Harbaugh could have done anything else:
10 secs, own end of the field. You can't risk running a play and getting stopped as the clock would stop and they can lineup for a gimmie.
Sucks for the kids and especially for that punter. Earlier in the game he had an 85yd punt- that will be long forgotten because of the bobble at the end.
Hey- crazy thing is they had a chance to tackle the guy and didn't...
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Post by silkyice on Oct 19, 2015 9:41:28 GMT -6
I don't think Harbaugh could have done anything else: 10 secs, own end of the field. You can't risk running a play and getting stopped as the clock would stop and they can lineup for a gimmie. Sucks for the kids and especially for that punter. Earlier in the game he had an 85yd punt- that will be long forgotten because of the bobble at the end. Hey- crazy thing is they had a chance to tackle the guy and didn't... There was no gimmie. If they run a play and don't gain an inch, the guy has to kick a 70 yard field goal.
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Post by WingTheT on Oct 19, 2015 9:43:49 GMT -6
I don't think Harbaugh could have done anything else: 10 secs, own end of the field. You can't risk running a play and getting stopped as the clock would stop and they can lineup for a gimmie. Sucks for the kids and especially for that punter. Earlier in the game he had an 85yd punt- that will be long forgotten because of the bobble at the end. Hey- crazy thing is they had a chance to tackle the guy and didn't... It's funny how you can do something awesome one play but if you mess up, everyone will only remember that hiccup...especially if it results in a huge play like that. He was being praised for a heck of a punt and now the whole town wants to kill him...gotta love the fans
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Oct 19, 2015 9:59:35 GMT -6
I don't think Harbaugh could have done anything else: 10 secs, own end of the field. You can't risk running a play and getting stopped as the clock would stop and they can lineup for a gimmie. Sucks for the kids and especially for that punter. Earlier in the game he had an 85yd punt- that will be long forgotten because of the bobble at the end. Hey- crazy thing is they had a chance to tackle the guy and didn't... There was no gimmie. If they run a play and don't gain an inch, the guy has to kick a 70 yard field goal. True- I thought it was UM's side of the 50.
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