|
Post by tentboy on Nov 22, 2006 7:33:44 GMT -6
Can someone give me some pro's and con's of the spread offense. What is your opinion of how effective it can be run at the High School level. When I say spread I mean the Urban Meyer (Florida) type offense.
Thanks
|
|
|
Post by sls on Nov 22, 2006 7:49:57 GMT -6
I believe it make recruiting easier in the school. Many basketball players who never played football before play now becuase of the spread.
|
|
|
Post by coach239 on Nov 22, 2006 8:18:16 GMT -6
I love making a defense defend the WHOLE field. The Spread offense give you that option as a Coach. (if you use it) Playmakers are going to get more opportunities because the defense has to adjust.
One of the possible negative aspects is O-lineman. I think that some Coaches underestimate how "skilled" O-lineman have to be in the Spread offense. Its probably a better Idea to have smaller and more agile lineman that are quick versus the hogs, but if you can Coach em' it doesnt matter. O-line play is key.
|
|
|
Post by tentboy on Nov 22, 2006 8:28:55 GMT -6
in this offense does the OL play more of a zone block system?
|
|
|
Post by sls on Nov 22, 2006 8:39:59 GMT -6
in this offense does the OL play more of a zone block system? There are different things to do. We are a 95% gun spread team. Our run game is veer, midline, load, crazy. We employ down blocking almost identical to underneath option blocking. If I were you and were looking to move to the spread I would employ the same ideas. If you were a zone team run zone, veer run veer, wing t run the gun wing t stuff, power run team run the QB. Keep the stuff the same as much as you can the first year.
|
|
|
Post by dwaynebm on Nov 22, 2006 8:43:24 GMT -6
I feel that with the zone running game, the OL plays a key role. You have to have the guys up front.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Nov 22, 2006 8:55:53 GMT -6
as long as you start the QB development early at the 7th & 8th grades....this offense can be a bonafide killer in HS.
|
|
|
Post by coach239 on Nov 22, 2006 9:07:00 GMT -6
as long as you start the QB development early at the 7th & 8th grades....this offense can be a bonafide killer in HS. Coach, what would be an alternative for schools who might not have "feeder programs"? At our school we are lucky to get 4 good years of development from a QB. Of course QB play is critical, but like the Florida system, I think that a QB that is a running threat is a great alternative for this system that is designed for passing the ball. Just my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by coach239 on Nov 22, 2006 9:09:52 GMT -6
in this offense does the OL play more of a zone block system? There are different things to do. We are a 95% gun spread team. Our run game is veer, midline, load, crazy. We employ down blocking almost identical to underneath option blocking. If I were you and were looking to move to the spread I would employ the same ideas. If you were a zone team run zone, veer run veer, wing t run the gun wing t stuff, power run team run the QB. Keep the stuff the same as much as you can the first year. I agree with you Coach. Zone blocking is extremely sophisticated, especially for HS kids. Now, if you have a great O-line Coach as well as smart and athletic kids, go for it. But if not, I would go with whats said up top.
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Nov 22, 2006 9:22:12 GMT -6
we have been running IZ/OZ for 6 years with special ed kids, 4.0 kids, big fat kids, tall skinny kids, etc.... we have had a 1000 yard rusher all 6 years running basically 2 schemes.
|
|
|
Post by jhanawa on Nov 22, 2006 9:30:44 GMT -6
I don't see whats sophisticated about zone, we teach it because its simple and effective without modification against various fronts and stunts.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Nov 22, 2006 9:34:09 GMT -6
jd, would you say that you have to choose between running a zone blocking scheme or base and/or gap scheme(s)? In other words, is it difficult to do both because of the time necessary to perfect zone blocking?
|
|
|
Post by tentboy on Nov 22, 2006 10:03:17 GMT -6
what is the easiest way to teach the zone blocking scheme? can the spread offense be implemented in an offseason or does it take years to implement at the high school level?
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Nov 22, 2006 10:18:53 GMT -6
blb,
we do run 2 gap schemes as well, but are not our bread and butter. We run trap and dart (tackle iso). I think most kids can handle 4-5 schemes and perfect it. When I first came to this school they had 9 run playes with 9 schemes. They were not very good at any of them. I was basically hired to simplfy and perfect the run game and pass pro schemes.
Here is what we run:
Inside zone scheme: IZ Belly Zone Counter Wham
Outside Zone Blocking OZ Jet Sweep Zone option (gun) toss
Trap
Dart
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Nov 22, 2006 10:28:24 GMT -6
Zone blocking is extremely sophisticated, especially for HS kids. It IS? What am I missing? What is sophisticated about stepping playside and overtaking your gap? These rules work regardless of the front you face....whereas if you run power schemes, you have to adjust for folds, TEDs, TEXs, pull, down, etc... Nothing against 'power' schemes....but zone is probably one of the simplest to teach...it just takes a lot of reps to run it well.
|
|
|
Post by cartwright on Nov 22, 2006 10:56:38 GMT -6
That's exactly what I'm thinking, brophy. It's a whole lot easier to step playside and hit someone, working downhill on double teams than it is to remember exactly which person you're supposed to block against which front.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Nov 22, 2006 11:25:00 GMT -6
I don't think it's the idea or theory behind zone blocking that is "sophisticated" or requires a lot of time.
I think it's recognizing defensive fronts (not just who's covered or uncovered) and determining which guys are working in tandem with who, and developing a "feel" of working with an OL teammate (for example, when your buddy is going to come off to second level and you have to have control of the block on the DL).
From my experience coaching OL in college for a little while, I like zone blocking, but it is somewhat time-intensive.
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Nov 22, 2006 11:47:55 GMT -6
blb hit the nail on the head. Zone blocking is expensive. It cost time to work the mesh between 2 teammates to get the feel of when to come off on 2nd level.
|
|
jamesmthomson
Sophomore Member
www.lakewoodfootball.com
Posts: 176
|
Post by jamesmthomson on Nov 22, 2006 11:53:09 GMT -6
We run a lor of Urban Meyer's stuff. zone, crazy option, shovel, shovel reverse, fake shovel pass, etc. We do have some 3 wide I to our offense, too. We were a new staff at our school this year, most of the guys never having coached together. We managed just over 4,000 yards of offense for the season in 11 games and a 35 point per game average. I would say we were in 4 wide shotgun 70% of the time. We also ran some double tight zone and trap, some power and counter out of the 3 wide I set. Out of the 4 wide we also ran some speed option and some counter that was really good for us. We had three underclassmen O lineman including 1 sophomore playing for us up front the whole year.
Let me know if you want any suggestions or help.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Nov 22, 2006 13:33:28 GMT -6
Zone Blocking is HARD! Coaches kill me with the "zone blocking concepts are simple" routine... Stepping playside? Easy to say, hardest thing to do! What's the hardest block to execute? Reach block! What's the first thing D-Coords teach their D-line... "don't get reached!" Covered, Uncovered, 1st level or 2nd... don't leave to soon, you may created a defensive seam! Hard... What's the easiest block to teach? Down Block! Double Wing anyone?
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Nov 22, 2006 15:01:32 GMT -6
defeat the reach, no problem all the defenders go with flow, get one defender sealed off or cut and the TB hits the cutback. Been coaching zone blocking for 15 years at the high school and college level and its the easist thing I have ever taught. Double teams on all first level defenders whats so wrong with that.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Nov 22, 2006 15:05:58 GMT -6
defeat the reach, no problem all the defenders go with flow, get one defender sealed off or cut and the TB hits the cutback. Been coaching zone blocking for 15 years at the high school and college level and its the easist thing I have ever taught. Double teams on all first level defenders whats so wrong with that. you know what they say...... not to say one scheme is better than the other....but the 'toughest' thing on zone (IMO) is drilling the OL to keep their shoulders squared. If you can do that, you pretty much got it....because those guys just want to grab and turn (it's easier than...) stepping and DRIVING.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Nov 22, 2006 16:02:11 GMT -6
defeat the reach, no problem all the defenders go with flow, get one defender sealed off or cut and the TB hits the cutback. Been coaching zone blocking for 15 years at the high school and college level and its the easist thing I have ever taught. Double teams on all first level defenders whats so wrong with that.Oh don't give me that... Dub team is easy stuff either... You two have those two... simple in concept... but defenses stunt... and don't have that LB blitz... should be simple... but its not... be ready to spend all day everyday, and don't let that line run into some quick defenders... EX...IZ Right... ...............OS..........................................CS ............................WB..........MB.........SB ...CB...............DE..........NT........DT.....DE.........CB ......................................OC................................. ....X..................OT...OG.........OG...OT.............Y....... .............................................................H...........Z ................................FB...QB Backside... OT.. Uncovered, Steps playside, punches backside, and climbs to the WB. OG.. Covered, steps playside, tries to reach NT... Playside... Center... Uncovered, steps playside, punches backside, feels for Backside OG to Reach, Makes sure frontside DT did not stunt the strong A, if not OC goes to MB, if does, has to take on stunting DT... (That sounds easy! NOT!) OG... Covered, steps playsdie, tries to Reach DT... OT... Covered, steps playside, tries to Reach DE... Both playside linemen have 1 on 1 Reach blocks... the LB's are not touched at all... HARD... HARD... HARD! Not even going to get into if that DE stunts inside of that reaching OT... penetration... probably gets there before the ball... nothing but trouble! But again... I'm just sayin'
|
|
|
Post by sls on Nov 22, 2006 16:16:51 GMT -6
I was reading the inside zone chapter from the Assembly Line by Milt tenopir and he said that they did not take a step to the playside against a backside shade, they would attack that man with the back foot because tehy "would assume he was already in a slant position" pg 53 Diagram 4
Therefor in khalfie's drawing the center would step at the nose with his left foot. You would still have to try and reach the DT and DE, but they could run them and with the C getting on that NT, you have your crease to run.
But, you really would not want to run IZ right against that defense because you are so outnumbered correct?
|
|
|
Post by lionhart on Nov 22, 2006 16:21:40 GMT -6
in your drawing coach, i would have the backside guard cut the nt first off, freeing up the center to get to level 2. the playside og and ot would keep their shoulders square and work to the outside shoulder of the defender, if the defender insists on fighting the reach..... its OK! (best thing about zone schemes!) why is it ok? because the longer the oline can "stretch" the defense, the more time for a seam to open up and the back to hit it. besides, in your defensive alignment, you are playing a cov 2 vs a trips bunch look? i would simply call speed option away from the trips.
|
|
Tampa
Sophomore Member
Posts: 211
|
Post by Tampa on Nov 22, 2006 17:40:16 GMT -6
A few years ago, my Zone blocking lineman produced a 2000 yard runner. But this was 99% due to the running back, who had great vision, change directions on a dime, and a 2-step full speed ability. Of course our greatest gains came from his cutbacks off of the IZ. Man, that running back made me look like a great OL coach!
Later on a different team, we struggled with zone blocking. By the end of season we were a lot more successful. But like anything in football, it requires reps, reps, and more reps. Not only with the OL but also with the RB reading the OL blocks.
One area that we had to overcome was the OL coming off the combo too soon to pick up the LB. We preached the old "4 hands - 4 eyes" concept and stressed Patience by letting the LB come to us.
In our spread formations (gun 2x2, 3x1) our base plays include the inside & outside zone, dart, speed option, and my favorite; trap.
|
|
|
Post by dacoachmo on Nov 22, 2006 20:00:06 GMT -6
7 in the box... I'm throwing the rock not running zone... ;D
|
|
|
Post by coachjd on Nov 22, 2006 20:57:41 GMT -6
Khalfie wrote: July 23, 06
Khalfie wrote: Nov 22, 06
Lets see khalfie on July 23rd your a spread option guy and now today your a double wing guy? You said it best, that the OL coach needs to be able to coach it inside and out. As it looks to me there are a number of coaches on this board who have successfully ran IZ or OZ, but you. So what does that say about you?
Yes there are a number or different things that can happen on any play, but zone blocking allows for the OL to have gap control to help against the stunts, twists blitz etc.... if one defender slants away from the uncovered the uncovered stays on his track to 2nd level. If the 2nd level blitzes a gap, if the OL is coached properly to see what is front of them the blitz is picked up. On IZ the OL is not trying to reach the down defender. They are basically trying to get movement. A vertical push would be best, but if its laterial, who cares the gap has now been stretched and allowing the back an area to run the ball.
If you have a question or you feel there is a weakness with what is being discussed why not act like a professional rather than come on in the thread act like an a s s.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Nov 22, 2006 22:48:21 GMT -6
I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you coachjd... my apologies for you taking what I've typed as a personal challenge to your manhood!
If you don't like my post, don't read them... they are not for you... they are for those that get my humor, and enjoy reading them...
But seeing that you do read my post... archive them, and even have the gall to try to throw them back in my face, lets get the facts right first shall we...
I coach with a Spread option team... Veer... loved it! The HC changed us to a Zone option team... Hated it! Hence the posts you conveniently misquoted... I've been against the zone from day 1 to day 9... I speak to the easiest block being the down block... two offenses take advantage of the down block... Veer... and what... huh... yeah, that's right, the Double Wing...
Am I a Double Winnger... nope... but I've been a fan of its schemes for quite some time! I am not a fan of the Zone... and therefore expressed my opinions on such, when someone stated, it was easy... Its not easy. I watched a very good O-line coach have a very hard time with it! Thought it was disingenious for others to claim such.
Finally, in regards to the hypocrisy of you challenging one's professionalism, and in the same sentence, calling him an A$$... well, lets just say I'm not shocked...
Keep on keeping coachjd... and I'll do the same!
|
|
|
Post by tog on Nov 22, 2006 23:12:01 GMT -6
The HC changed us to a Zone option team... Hated it! I am not a fan of the Zone... and therefore expressed my opinions on such, when someone stated, it was easy... Its not easy. I watched a very good O-line coach have a very hard time with it! ! Sounds like an anecdotal thing. I would consider myself a very good oline coach. However, if i was introduced to a new system and didn't put the time and effort into learning it, i would have trouble with it. I bet if I spent a month with Calande, I would still have a hard time teaching DW OL stuff. It just aint my thing. I think it is just about as easy as zone blocking though. Stay on track, combo up, crap. That is pretty dang easy. All the people counting defenders and making it way more complicated than it needs to be (imo) are what make zone blocking harder than it needs to be. Yes, spread offense works at hs level. Any offense works at the HS level. It has to be something the coaches know, and beleive in.
|
|