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Post by los on Apr 10, 2007 14:26:25 GMT -6
Sorry Tim, thought of something else and changed the post a bit, lol! Never had any problems much with officials calling holding, however, I did have some problems with my linemen, getting tired and using poor techniques or a few just being plain lazy and getting called for holding lol!
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Post by jhanawa on Apr 10, 2007 14:28:33 GMT -6
Its been explained to me by the refs in HS and college for the last 20 years that inside the framework is legal, I'll defer to their experience and judgement and continue to teach "inside hands win". My question for the "strict interpretation guys", if by definition, any hook, grasp, clamp, impede, restrain is a holding call, wouldn't a guy pinching his shoulder and head in a vise type move while shoulder blocking be holding, albeit with his shoulder and head? Hows that for a legalistic nonsensical grasp for a straw....LOL
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Post by los on Apr 10, 2007 14:38:25 GMT -6
Thats pretty good JH, lol!
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Post by knighter on Apr 11, 2007 8:52:54 GMT -6
IMO officials are not paid to interpret the rules, they are there to enforce the rules as written. "Spirit" has nothing to do with it. The rules are written in black and white, so it is the job of an official to call them as written. Again that is my opinion. Tim and I have agreed to disagree on this one. You would see a lot more holding calls for awhile if it was called that way, but the end result I believe you would see less, as it would force many of us to teach correctly. Everyone has adapted one way, now they would have to adapt the other. We would survive I am sure. Again, not saying any of you is cheating, I have my opinion and you have yours. So what we disagree, it is all good.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Apr 11, 2007 9:18:39 GMT -6
Knighter, I have to disagree. There is a reason that the rules are put in place, a problem they are designed to solve, and then there is how that rule is written. Holding, as an example, is designed to keep a player from gaining an advantage over his opponent through a grasp, hook, etc., that impedes his progress. If an offensive player does a huge take-down type hold 30 yards behind a play, then by your statement, it should be flagged. It had no impact on the play, the offense gained no material advantage through the hold, but according to the letter of the law, a flag should be thrown.
In the same situation, there is no way on earth I am throwing that flag. Officials are paid to interpret the rules and enforce them. The rules are not written in such a way that all circumstances are covered, so interpretation has to occur. Just as in the holding example, you can walk down the same road in blocks in the back, facemasks, fighting, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, late hits, roughing the kicker, roughing the passer, false start, illegal shift, illegal motion, sideline violations, and on and on.
Trust me, after having called with officials that do what you have just asked, you will never want to be on the field with them. They ruin the flow of the game, don't understand football, and are generally very confrontational. As an official, the best compliment I can have is silence on my job, and the best official you can have is the one that you don't notice during the game.
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Post by knighter on Apr 11, 2007 9:45:40 GMT -6
I am sure you are a great official Tim. But I would raise holy hell with you if a team was "grabbing cloth" or "grabbing the breastplate" of my DL and you were not calling it. Likewise I would keep my mouth shut if you called my guys for doing it as well. If you grab cloth or breastplate you do it to "impede" progress or "restrain" (which is gaining an advantage). Again, that is my opinion, and it does not change. I agree the good officials are the ones who you do not notice during a game, but I will add the even better ones are the ones who have the stones to call the game as it is meant to be called.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Apr 11, 2007 11:35:55 GMT -6
I think the opinions on the quality of my officiating would probably vary from game to game and coach to coach. I have actually been accused of being the best and worst official in the same game by the same coach, so I have no clue.
I don't think that having the stones to make the call and legalistic interpretation are the same. Having the stones to make the right call is very different than hiding behind the legalistic interpretation of the rule book. Interpretation will always be required, especially with how the rules are written in the book.
If a player grabs a breastplate or cloth and the defensive player doesn't try to gain seperation, then there is no restraint and no impeding of progress. You as the coach have every right to raise all the hell you want to when you don't agree with an official. That being said, make sure you understand what you are raising hell about prior to engaging that arguement. If you come to me during a game and say, "Their center is grabbing my player's jersey and you aren't flagging it." Then I will have one of four possible answers, depending on the situation:
1. That may be occurring, but he isn't trying to get away, so I can't see it. (keep in mind that I am behind the player). There is no restraint. If he wants the flag, he needs to make the effort to get by the player, which will expose the hold.
2. I didn't see it. I will watch.
3. He may have grabbed him, but he didn't restrain him, since he made the tackle behind the line of scrimmage.
4. That may have happened, but there was no impact on the play. I will watch to make sure it doesn't.
You may not agree, but a good official will be able to explain what he sees on the field.
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Post by knighter on Apr 11, 2007 12:35:39 GMT -6
I meant I would rasie hell if we had chatted about it. I usually keep my mouht shut until after I have at least talked to the official about what I am seeing. I do not expect everything to be seen after all you have 22 guys to watch, and I can focus in on one or two each play. Even when I raise hell, I do it somewhat respectfully. I do get a little heated when I tell an official where it is occurring, and he says he is going to watch it, and than watches and does nothing about it.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Apr 11, 2007 14:01:50 GMT -6
If you don't believe in the spirit of the game, then it is no longer a game, just a transaction between two teams.
If your defenders can't disengage hands inside the frame, that is their fault, IMO.
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Post by knighter on Apr 11, 2007 14:42:42 GMT -6
This post deleted by original poster.
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Post by timtheenchanter on Apr 11, 2007 15:38:19 GMT -6
I think the shift in blocking philosophy is coming down from the college and pro ranks along with the shift in officiating philosophy. From a purist standpoint, executing a block is designed to keep the defensive player from completing his assignment. I think the debate here is how that is allowed to occur and what constitutes a legal or illegal block.
From a very practical standpoint, if I can't see the foul, I can't rule on the foul. The good news is that players that hold do so as a matter of habit. Eventually they will get caught.
We haven't even opened the can of worms that is defensive holding........
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bigcroz
Junior Member
Go STAGS!!
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Post by bigcroz on Apr 11, 2007 18:49:09 GMT -6
True Tim...Like tackling my guards to keep them from pulling
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Post by timtheenchanter on Apr 12, 2007 8:43:20 GMT -6
True Tim...Like tackling my guards to keep them from pulling That is exactly correct. It is illegal and probably one of the hardest fouls for the umpire to catch. The other one is the pull and shoot when the defensive tackle grabs and pulls the guard or center out of the way so the backer can shoot the gap. Also very difficult to catch.
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Post by gmccown on Apr 12, 2007 11:42:08 GMT -6
I have to echo everything Knighter has said...
I'll add that I haven't seen a single zone sweep in 8 years of coaching that was consistently successfull and didn't involve holding by the LMOLS. I do mean I haven't seen 1 team do that consistantly and not hold...and I dont' think anyone can argue that a 9 tech end getting reached by a tackle or TE on a play going outside want's to get to the ball or is making an effort to go to the ball. To me the only way the "effort to get away" argument holds water is if that end literally just stands there and lets the offense block him. There is no way to reach a even halfway descent 9 tech consistently without grabing and pulling something. If there is I sure haven't seen it, and I'd state that the same thing is true with a guard reaching a 3 tech DT. What I see normally is an open step by the reaching lineman and a grab (mabey it's inside) and a yank to get to the outside shoulder.
I exclude from this post the cutting of the playside leg of an outside defender when it is legal to do so...that's different from the standup reach block.
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Post by knighter on Apr 12, 2007 12:28:34 GMT -6
If you do not follow the rules of the game you are a cheater. Touche (sp??) Coach J. LOL If you can't teach an OL to block without grabbing, it is your own fault. LOL I am in a better mood today, so I can post without getting mad. READ: I AM HAVING FUN WITH YOU NOW.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Apr 12, 2007 14:02:35 GMT -6
If you do not follow the rules of the game you are a cheater. Touche (sp??) Coach J. LOL If you can't teach an OL to block without grabbing, it is your own fault. LOL I am in a better mood today, so I can post without getting mad. READ: I AM HAVING FUN WITH YOU NOW. Coach, I never read your original post, you deleted it before I got a chance. We just differ on this opinion no big deal. If we all felt the same that would make us robots, who wants that? LOL I still think your record and the manner you conduct yourself for the most part on this board both reflect well on you.
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Post by knighter on Apr 13, 2007 8:07:52 GMT -6
On the robot thing, could I be a really cool looking robot (like the Terminator)? Maybe give me some special powers or something? If so I will take being a robot! Basically Coach J my original post was much like the one I replaced it with, just didn't make sure that is clear in the having fun part.
Coach J = Cheater! Cheater! (Dang OL grabbing people and such, I was a DL and I hated grabbers) LOL I agree, we can agree to disagree! That is what makes this board fun sometimes.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Apr 13, 2007 11:16:39 GMT -6
On the robot thing, could I be a really cool looking robot (like the Terminator)? Maybe give me some special powers or something? If so I will take being a robot! Basically Coach J my original post was much like the one I replaced it with, just didn't make sure that is clear in the having fun part. Coach J = Cheater! Cheater! (Dang OL grabbing people and such, I was a DL and I hated grabbers) LOL I agree, we can agree to disagree! That is what makes this board fun sometimes. You were a DL? That explains EVERYTHING!
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Post by knighter on Apr 17, 2007 8:06:22 GMT -6
yep DL at 6'0" 195, was one of those quick and nasty guys that you fatties had to GRAB to stop. LOL either that or just pancake my sorry arse
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