|
Post by coachd5085 on Mar 25, 2007 12:43:38 GMT -6
BAsed on the summary of the ethics study, I thought it would be interesting to see how many coaches here would say they have taught "cheating" tactics such as grabbing cloth inside the framework.
|
|
|
Post by lionhart on Mar 25, 2007 15:06:18 GMT -6
i guess i don't consider it "cheating" to grab cloth inside the shoulderpads. i was taught that way, and every other coach ive worked with did as well. i would never teach a player to be dirty, but i do teach to cut block through the knee pad... i guess its all how you look at things
|
|
|
Post by pegleg on Mar 25, 2007 15:17:24 GMT -6
"inside the framework" isn't cheating. correct me if i'm wrong, but every official i've ever talked to says that holding is defined as "outside the framework". defensive players are allowed to use their hands, so i teach my guys to do the same, within the rules as they have been explained to me.
as lion said, i don't teach my players to be dirty, but cutting is legal in texas, so we teach it. same with holding. as the rules are interpreted, "inside the framework" is not illegal therefore not cheating.
i have been accused of being a little rough around the edges so maybe i don't know of which i speak, but thats my story and i'm sticking to it.
|
|
|
Post by blackfly73 on Mar 25, 2007 15:20:59 GMT -6
"inside the framework" isn't cheating. correct me if i'm wrong, but every official i've ever talked to says that holding is defined as "outside the framework". defensive players are allowed to use their hands, so i teach my guys to do the same, within the rules as they have been explained to me. That's my understanding too - at least in the officials in our league.
|
|
|
Post by warrior53 on Mar 25, 2007 16:29:12 GMT -6
It isn't cheating - it is the defense's excuse for not getting to the quarterback - if we stopped doing it what would those guys have to complain about?
|
|
|
Post by tog on Mar 25, 2007 16:31:08 GMT -6
we don't grab cloth we try to grab the shoulder pads themselves underneath the cloth
|
|
|
Post by fbdoc on Mar 25, 2007 17:38:50 GMT -6
We teach "Punch, and get those hands up under the shoulder pads..." As far as cheating, I just don't see why a coach would do it - how can you hold the team to any standard when they see you will "cheat" in other areas? Another one of our catch phrases is "Within the rules of football" which usually applies to hitting and tackling. We are going to knock the crap out of them, within the rules of football!
|
|
|
Post by pegleg on Mar 25, 2007 18:20:40 GMT -6
your right tog.
i think its a matter of semantics. his question was about grabbing cloth, and i think we just answered him.
but your right the real coaching point is to control the breast plate.
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Mar 25, 2007 18:31:54 GMT -6
we don't grab cloth we try to grab the shoulder pads themselves underneath the cloth
Exactly.
|
|
|
Post by hoptions on Mar 25, 2007 18:32:59 GMT -6
Every thing that I teach is completely legal “with in the rules of football”, as said before.
We don’t “Punch” because that involves a closed fist and is illegal…so we “strike” our opponents with the heals of our hands.
We don’t “hold” because holding is defined as grabbing an opponent outside the frame of the shoulders. So…we “clutch and squeeze” inside the shoulders trying to gain control of the shoulder pads (steering wheel) with our finger tips.
Again it’s all up to interpretations and language, and in the case of “holding” I think the rule is very clear.
Hoptions
|
|
bigcroz
Junior Member
Go STAGS!!
Posts: 356
|
Post by bigcroz on Mar 25, 2007 19:08:14 GMT -6
As Tog said our aim is to control the breastplate (on O and D) which is cleary within the rules and not "cheating"
|
|
|
Post by lsrood on Mar 26, 2007 7:01:07 GMT -6
We teach them to hit with the open heel of the hand and try to work their thumbs up underneath the breast plate of the shoulder pads. If that doesn't work we grab cloth within the framework and I have to echo what others have said; in talking with officials in our area, it is not considered illegal to grab cloth inside the framework. We go out of our way to make sure our players do not do anything illegal. Our goal is always 0 penalties per game ( we even reached it once!)
|
|
CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
|
Post by CoachJ on Mar 26, 2007 7:49:56 GMT -6
I don't believe we have ever been called for grabbing cloth within the frame of a defender. So if that is in fact cheating, then no ref I have ever met at any level knows about it. Including Youth, HS, College, etc.
|
|
|
Post by saintrad on Mar 26, 2007 8:32:16 GMT -6
according to Federation rules an offensive lineman may "hold the defender's jersey" if two conditions apply: 1. the arms are within the framework of the body (i.e. shoulders) and 2) the arms do not extend past a 45 degree angle.
Saw ths thread an went totalk to my principal who has been a Federation offical forthe las 12 yrs and he explained "holding" to me that way.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Mar 26, 2007 9:48:21 GMT -6
Thank you saint rad..I was looking for that definition.
When was that rule modified? I would be interested in seeing the poll answered on the basis that it is illegal to do so.
This makes the poll pretty much void. I will have to think of another example lol
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Mar 29, 2007 11:12:50 GMT -6
Saintrad--what you posted was in contrast to the definition I received in the rules of the game section.
Based on that defintion, I would interpret grabbing the breastplate to control the defender as "illegal" but look how many coaches coach that.
|
|
|
Post by realdawg on Mar 29, 2007 11:24:15 GMT -6
If you teach them to grab cloth you are teaching them to hold, and break the rules. That why I and everyone else teaches then to grap the breastplate-its inside the framework, and therefore not holding and not illegal or unethical
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Mar 29, 2007 12:43:52 GMT -6
I ran across this on Coach Hugh Wyatt's site and thought it applies to this topic:
EXCERPTS FROM THE AMERICAN FOOTBALL COACHES ASSOCIATION CODE OF ETHICS EXCERPTED FROM THE PREAMBLE Coaches unwilling or unable to comply with the principles of the Code of Ethics have no place in the profession. EXCERPTED FROM ARTICLE ONE - RESPONSIBILITIES TO PLAYERS 2. In teaching the game of football, the coach must realize that there are certain rules designed to protect the player and provide common standards for determining a winner and a loser. Any attempts to circumvent these rules, to take unfair advantage of an opponent, or to teach deliberate unsportsmanlike conduct, have no place in the game of football, nor has any coach guilty of such teaching any right to call himself a coach. EXCERPTED FROM ARTICLE THREE - RULES OF THE GAME 1. The Football Code which appears in the Official Football Rule Book shall be considered an integral part of this Code of Ethics and should be carefully read and observed. 2. Each coach should be acquainted thoroughly with the rules of the game. He is responsible for having the rules taught to, interpreted for, and executed by his players. 3. Both the letter and the spirit of the rules must be adhered to by the coaches and their players. 4. Coaches who seek to gain any advantage by circumvention, disregard, or unwillingness to learn the rules of the game, are unfit for this association. A coach is responsible for the adherence to the rules by all parties directly involved with the team. The integrity of the game rests mainly on the shoulders of the coach; there can be no compromise.
|
|
|
Post by 3rdandlong on Mar 29, 2007 12:45:58 GMT -6
What do you guys think about defensive players cutting lead blockers
|
|
|
Post by superpower on Mar 29, 2007 12:58:01 GMT -6
If the defender and blocker were both on the LOS and in the FBZ at the snap and the ball has not left the FBZ, then it is legal. However, that means that a fullback can not legally be cut. It also means that linebackers and defensive backs can not legally cut any lead blocker.
|
|
CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
|
Post by CoachJ on Mar 29, 2007 14:13:43 GMT -6
Here is the answer from the other section "REPLY: Holding is defined in NF 9-2-1c (offensive) and NF 9-2-3c (defensive). The two rules are almost identical except that the rule against defensive holding does allow the defender to 'hold' the runner. Wouldn't it be a strange game if they prohibited that!! The rule says that a player shall not "Use his hands, arms or legs to hook, lock, clamp, grasp, encircle or hold in an effort to restrain an opponent." The key word in the rule is "restrain," that is hold in such a way that it prevents the player from moving where he wants to go. There is an allowance for the defense to momentarily grasp and pull aside a blocker so that the defender can get to the ball carrier--but only for that reason. I wrote an article on holding that explains not only the rule, but how it's enforced for all levels of football. If you send me an e-mail (masucci at att dot com), I'd be glad to forward it on to you." I found it interesting. So if a defender chucks an offensive lineman without the ball carrier explicitly nearby, that is technically holding. I also think it is funny that we decide when the rules are important. If you have ever went 1mph over the speed limit, you have broken the law. If you have ever crossed a street no at the corner, you have broken the law. If you ever changed lanes in an intersection, you have broken the law. If you have ever crossed the street went it said "Don't Walk" you have broken the law. If you have ever taken the "Do Not Remove by Penalty of Law" tag of your bed, you have broken the law. In some states if you have ever not worn your seatbelt, you have broken the law. If you have done anything of these in the presence of child, you have taught them it is ok to do this. The enforcement of the rule is what matters. If they want to enforce the holding rule and make people like Hugh Wyatt happy, then they better enforce it better. They enforce it properly in the spirit of the game.
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Mar 29, 2007 14:19:31 GMT -6
I will only say this, and I am not judging any of you who teach otherwise. If you are teaching to grab anything (grab=grasp) in my book it is holding. Not saying you are right or wrong, and not saying I am either. But IMO grasping/grabbing breastplate/jersey/whatever is by definition of the rule illegal. You do it in an attempt to retstrain (or impede) where the defenders is going.
There, I had bit my tongue for this long, so thought I would weigh in with my OPINION. Again not calling any one of you out.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Mar 29, 2007 14:39:07 GMT -6
Knighter...that is the exact point I was making once I got the official wording of the rule. I just didn't have time to post the excerpt from the other section. Cloth, Breastplate, inside framework, outside framework.....are all irrelevant. Grasping and trying to keep him from going where he wants to go is holding.
The "justification" processes we use as coaches "refs don't enforce it..etc." are the problem, and I think THAT is what leads to the results in the ethics study.
|
|
CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
|
Post by CoachJ on Mar 29, 2007 14:40:58 GMT -6
Knighter...that is the exact point I was making once I got the official wording of the rule. I just didn't have time to post the excerpt from the other section. Cloth, Breastplate, inside framework, outside framework.....are all irrelevant. Grasping and trying to keep him from going where he wants to go is holding. Not according to the people that enforce the rule. There would be more flags at EVERY level.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2007 17:11:32 GMT -6
I teach my DBs that if the WR has a step on them and the deep ball is coming and he can't get into position, you bet grab him and take the 15 yard penalty rather than the TD. That's not the normal technique I teach, but I'll take it over a TD. So if that's cheating, yep, I cheat.
|
|
|
Post by timtheenchanter on Mar 30, 2007 13:01:37 GMT -6
I did a post on this in the articles section. There is a difference between officiating to the letter and officiating to the spirit. There is a fundamental difference between a grab and a restrain.
BTW, there are some changes coming down the pipe on holding philosophy that will firm up some of how it is called, but it will still be within the spirit versus a legalistic interpretation. The post in the articles section is long, but does a decent job of explaining the official's view.
|
|
|
Post by coachjim on Mar 31, 2007 3:47:29 GMT -6
At youth level in the eighties we were taught to throw dirt in eyes, grab jerseys, and our cheerleaders even had brawls with the other teams cheerleaders during games. Ironically, I will be the head coach of the same team, nearly 30 years later. I will not be teaching nor suggesting anything but playing fairly.
Players learn a lot about life through football and tend to emulate their teachers, regardless of the reasons whether winning or trying to gain an edge, teaching them to cheat, cheats them in the long run. When you find them seeking the easy way in life and cheating to get there, don't be suprised. It's what you taught them.
Winning is important to a team but it is how you got there that is important. If it has come down to cheating to win, i'd rather lose.
|
|
|
Post by timtheenchanter on Apr 10, 2007 12:01:44 GMT -6
Ironically, the parents and coaches we have problems with during the game are the same as the kids we have problems with on the field. Kids are sponges and care more about what you do than what you say.
|
|
|
Post by los on Apr 10, 2007 13:56:31 GMT -6
I voted no for a few reasons, #1.- I've taught hands and shoulder blocking techniques and really didn't think it was necessary to grab anything, if you used good fundamentals, were in good condition and athletic enough for the position (just a preference though). #2.- Every officiating crew or individual members of the same, didn't seem to interpret this rule as Tim has stated so well! (so why set yourself up for arguments or 10 yd drive killing penaltys?) again, just my own opinion lol! #3.- Technically speaking, we liked them to punch,push while keeping your feet under you and moving, sometimes having to reestablish inside position during handfighting, then as the defender trys to make his escape move to the ball ,(sometimes leaving himself a little off balance), you can get that final explosive shove, putting him on the turf. Grasping, actually seemed to make this more difficult?
|
|
|
Post by timtheenchanter on Apr 10, 2007 14:05:29 GMT -6
I voted no for a couple reasons, #1.- I've taught hands and shoulder blocking techniques and really didn't think it was necessary to grab anything, if you used good fundamentals, were in good condition and athletic enough for the position (just a preference though). #2.- Every officiating crew or individual members of the same, didn't seem to interpret this rule as Tim has stated so well! (so why set yourself up for arguments or 10 yd drive killing penaltys?) again, just my own opinion lol! They problem with the rules will always be interpretation. That is true at all levels and changes over time. With officiating being an avocation versus a primary vocation, the amount of prep and study time is going to vary widely from official to official. I believe that the quality, especially in tight games, of the officiating crew will be strongly correlated to how the prep both during and offseason.
|
|